47: Scream & Scream 2 (1996/1997)

In honor of “Scream 5,” Alex and Nick break down their lifelong obsession to Wes Craven’s “Scream” and its very worthy follow-up, “Scream 2.”
The guys discuss the massive influence of “Scream”, great horror sequels, meta narratives, comedy in horror, director’s commentaries as film school, Liev Schreiber, Laurie Metcalf, movie violence, and so much more.
There are NO “Scream 5” spoilers in this episode!
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Watch Alex's films at http://alexwithrow.com/
Watch Nick's films at https://www.nicholasdostal.com/
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Transcript

0:06

All right. So, hey, everyone, welcome to. What are you watching? I'm Alex Twitter, and I'm joined by my best man, Nick Dostal. Still. How are you doing there? Cotton weary. Oh, I was wondering what it was going to be. I'm excited to be here. Oh, God. This is going to be so exciting. It's really going to be a fun? one. It's going to be a scream, baby. Why talk about scream? I love this movie. I have loved it since it opened 25 years ago. Christmas 1996. My mom took me opening weekend. I was 11 years old, freshly, 11 years old, and more than any other movie screen was my movie with my mom. We watched this thing together so, so, so many times. This thing is definitely tied. If not succeeds. Pulp Fiction as my most watched movie ever. So I have a deep personal love with Scream. We've talked about it a lot on this podcast. It's been brought up plenty, but also this is an incredibly good movie and it's hugely influential on the horror genre in all genres. Really. It's single handedly revitalized horror the slasher film, all of it. I mean, the way it fuzed humor and horror was game changing. And of course the way it introduced meta narratives to a brand new audience. I mean not a lot of meta movies in 1986, you know, you jump ahead 25 years and most every movie made over a certain budget is based on something we've already seen and they tend to loop in a a narrative multiverse post good bullshit thing but scream. I love this movie. We love this movie. Tell me about Scream. Ha man, you know I got it. I got to hand it to our podcast because I think I'm just the biggest hypocrite ever. I you know, would make all these comments about not liking movies with kids and then all of a sudden coming around and being like, That's another movie with kids that I like and then having this whole entire conversation about horror movies not being my thing. And I've kind of come around to start enjoying horror movies again. So I'm just I guess this is all what this podcast is about for me. It's taken 50 episodes and I'm just completely manipulating and changing your movie taste to my liking. That's all this is, man. This is all just one big, giant social experiment. Exactly. Exactly. Well, when I was a kid, I loved horror, and I don't I think scream was the culmination. I mean, it was it was the culmination of every single horror movie pretty much ever made up until that point. There's references everywhere. And I knew what they were at the time, too. So when Scream finally came out, I just thought it was the best damn movie ever. Like, it was it was unlike anything I'd ever seen. Still is. And it's something worth talking about in the genre. And I think even more importantly, just the history of movies like because of that meta and by the way, what does meta actually mean? It's like self-referential. So it's when you're referencing the fact that whatever you want to call it, that you're in a movie. So scream, I mean, we're going to get into this. But like Scream was the first movie I ever saw in which the characters in the movie were using previous movies to help them survive. Not only that, they were using previous movies made by the same person making this movie because they reference Nightmare on Elm Street, which is directed by Wes Craven Scream, directed by Wes Craven. So it was certainly not the first time this has been done in movies, but this was the first time on a really popular level and certainly the biggest of the nineties, just fuzing in I mean, in one part Rose McGowan says you're starting to sound like some Wes Carpenter flick, which is obviously like Fuzing, the names of Wes Craven and John Carpenter, and we still don't really see that that much where the directors themselves are being referenced in the own movie. And but when we do see that now, it's usually just very gladhanding or a lot of people are just getting bored with it and getting kind of fed up with it. But this was huge at the time, and I remember catching not all of them, but some of those references and being like You way you can do that. Like you can talk about Wes Craven in a movie, Wes Craven's directing, and you know, if you're we can get into all this. If you're a fan of Wes Craven, this was not the first time he attempted many narratives. Wes Craven's New Nightmare, which came out a few years before. Yeah. Has, you know, Robert England playing Freddy Krueger and Wes Craven playing Wes Craven, the director of Nightmare on Elm Street. So this was not a concept that was new to him. But I would say Scream is arguably the most effective use of Metanarrative, certainly the most revolutionary in our lifetime. It because this started so, so much. I agree. And would it be fair to say, knowing as much as I know about you, that the use of media in movies, I personally am not a fan of it unless it's done really, really well, which I don't know how you do anymore these days. Yeah. I think if if we're painting with like a really broad brush and I'm speaking generally. No, not my favorite thing when men in narratives are like looped in constantly. I mean, you know, the newest matrix, they're like making jokes about how much Warner Brothers wanted a sequel. And they're making that, too. In the movie, they're talking about a video game, but they're very clearly talking about like this Matrix sequel, and that is such a big part of that movie. But again, no one was doing this shit in 1996, not on a big level, but American made a bunch of things I mean, even like Michael Haneke's Funny Games has a sort of metanarrative in it, or at least like a fuckery to it, in which something really kind of good for the audience happens, but bad for the villains in the movie. And, you know, a character in the movie just rewinds the movie with the remote control and then you get to see the scene play it again and you're like, the fuck is going on here again? I didn't know you could do this in movies, but I don't know, maybe this is worth noting that Funny Games, the first incarnation of it was a year after Scream. So I think the influence of Scream cannot be overstated, and that's certainly one of the reasons why people are still talking about it and why we are plotting about it all these years later. Do you think that if Scream never happened, we wouldn't have gotten any of the spoof movies that came off of this like Scary Movie and all of those Opinon movies? Yeah, that's like a chicken or the egg thing. Like if Pulp Fiction doesn't happen, do we get all of the Pulp Fiction knock off, some of which are good, most of which aren't true? Maybe we would have gotten there eventually. But if you go watch Scary Movie, I mean, there are aspects of it that are just complete blatant rip offs, which is that the design of a parody movie. I get that. But this is a good question, and I'm glad we're talking about this early parody movies don't work, in my opinion. If you are making fun of a movie that already sucks. Yeah, that movie already sucked. Like I don't need why do I need to go see that? Like you can make fun of? It's more fun to make fun of movies. That have accomplished all the cliches. Like Scream is a movie that actively talks about cliches like, you know, don't say I'll be right back. Don't go get another beer. Don't do drugs. Don't have sex, all this stuff. So it's openly mocking these cliches in a really cool, interesting way. If it wasn't done well, then Scary Movie wouldn't be necessary. Like I think some of the Scary Movie sequels because I've seen them all because I'm a psycho, they're just not as good because they're not making fun of as good of movies, you know what I mean? So yeah, perhaps the whole parody and making fun of these type of movies may have happened, but there's even another layer to that, that what scream scream starts. And then you get I know what you did last summer, final destination. You get all the movies that Scary Movie is eventually making fun of. So not only Scary Movie making fun of Scream, they are making fun of every movie that Scream inspired, just like a real big testament to Scream. And, you know, a little bit of trivia. The working title of Scream was Scary Movie, Scrap It and Change It to Scream Halfway Through, which is kind of funny. That's awesome. So that's all well and good for Scream. Of course, it's an easy one to talk to. Very influential. Why then is the title of this Pod Scream and Scream two? That's because while Scream remains very successful and it's talked about a lot I figured if we're doing a pod about Scream one, I want to dedicate just as much time to the incredibly worthy sequel, Scream two. So we're going to talk about both because I love Scream two. I'm still stunned that it turned out as well as it did. They were in pre-production on screen two when Scream one was still in theaters, which, you know, today movie franchises are like planned out decades in advance. But that was not the case in 1996 because script scream one in fact was not a hugely anticipated movie. There wasn't a lot of press around it because Wes Craven wasn't his career wasn't in this really that good of a place. But I genuinely think still to this day that Scream two is one of the most satisfying direct horror sequels ever. You know, in preparation for this part, I was you know, I looked up like best horror sequels of all time and some of those they get down the line of like, oh, the third or the fifth movie, the eighth version, like the second total remake. I'm talking like the second one directly after, which is still directly tied to the first one for my money. It doesn't get better than Scream two for sequels. So yeah, we're going to talk about it. And, you know, fans of our work, if they've seen I'm Alive, like I wrote Scream two into that movie because it was so important to my mom and I. But yeah, I'm really glad we're going to be talking about Scream two as well. It's going to be a really fun conversation because I had such a different experience with it this time. Watching it from the first time, watching it and I remember vividly both times I saw both of these movies in the theater, which says a lot about my upbringing because 1996 I was born in 1986, so I'm ten or 11 years old going to see Duke. Same here. My mom's like, so we're going to scream, right? I'm like ten years old. Yeah, I saw Scream two. Never. I think we've talked about this. On Most Memorable Moviegoing Experiences podcast was really early. That's like number five for us. Never in my life, never again will I, will I be as excited to see a movie than I was to see Scream two because I became in that year between those movies, Scream two came out exactly a year later. I became so obsessed with Scream and every movie that was referenced in it. So I couldn't even sleep the night before. I will never forget that being able to see Scream two and like having our friend's mom buys a ticket because we're like fucking 12 years old. It was sold out. Oh, man, I'll never forget it. God, it was great. So when I was a kid, a huge reference point for me for what movies I had to see that fall because, you know, it was like Oscar season was gearing up for these Entertainment Weekly, like fall movie guides. And I remember the more ink they would give movies, that's what they were anticipating to be the big ones. So like X movie would get this big spread like Jerry Maguire, big spread. I remember the scream. It was like a blur. It was just a few sentences, and that's because there wasn't a lot of excitement for the film. Wes Craven was in this slump. It starred little known TV stars as main characters and an unknown writer. It was a new branch of a studio. So in the ten years prior to Scream Craven releases Deadly Friend The Serpent in the Rainbow Shocker, The People Under the Stairs, Wes Craven's New Nightmare and Vampire in Brooklyn. And I like People Under the Stairs and West Craven's New Nightmare. But and they actually made money. But those weren't massive hits. And Vampire in Brooklyn is a notorious bomb and maybe the biggest bomb of his career. So Craven goes back to his roots and he makes a movie about a bunch of teenagers getting iced out. And I'm telling you, and Scream was released like five days before Christmas. 1996 cost 14 million to make and it grossed 173 million. So no one was talking about this at the time. And then this fucker just didn't leave the box office. It stayed because the ending is so good, which, you know, caveat we're going to fully talk about scream and scream two here. So if you haven't seen these movies or you don't want to know who the killers are in a 25 year old movie, then, you know, sorry, I guess, but I remember people very eager to go back and be like, Oh, which one of them did which killing? And then, oh, OK, there's a little trick there. Oh, wow, look at that side. I Billy give Stu. They're like, Ooh, OK. And it was, you know, this is three years before the Sixth Sense when people were just like going back and back and back trying to catch these clues. But I mean, my God, I saw this thing in the theater like six times. I think just loving every second of it. But it has this great run, and it's getting all of this acclaim, and people are really jazzed by it. And then what happens after, like, no one could really anticipate because pretty much every, like, mainstream horror movie you've seen after Scream was inspired by this movie. I mean, I know you did last summer, Urban Legends, the faculty final destination, Halloween, H2O. That's another thing. It helped revitalize these kind of dead franchises, Halloween H2O, Brite of Chucky, Jason, Freddy, they all get sequels. So in framing screen, like as a cultural moment, this is a total monoculture moment when everyone's talking about it. I don't even remember like anyone talking about Oscar big Oscar contention for the end of the year in 1996. Everyone I knew adults kids everyone was talking about scream yeah Matthew Lillard I was listening to him on armchair expert the DAX Shepard podcast Great podcast Yeah it's really good. He was talking about how when he made that movie he didn't think it was going to be a big thing like no one making it at the time. It's a horror movie. You're exactly like Wes Craven kind of coming off of the quote unquote slumps that he had been having. So no one really knew. But then he was saying that the test audiences were going absolutely crazy. Like 100% success rate, right, for audience approval, which was not really a thing that happened. So Wes Craven called Matthew Lillard up and he goes, Get ready. I think we may have a hit. And everyone was like, Yeah, I'll believe it till we see it. I believe it till we see it. And you're right, though, because that's what it was, was like it caught on, but it got such a huge buzz that everyone kept going back to see it again. And it just made so much more money because of that repeat audience viewership. And then when this thing hit, like I had the VHS when it hit VHS, we just I mean, you'd have a friend over it was every weekend you yelled it on. And it was. And I mean, the horror genre has always infused comedy largely. It's, you know, it's smart to do. It's a tension release all that stuff. I never laughed this hard in a scary movie before. I mean, just the use of like it's called tact. You fuck raggedy fuck, you create. And I'm like, where are these teenagers getting these words? And I would be God just mimicking it and dying, laughing. And that was one of the reasons it kept me going back to see it or putting it on over and over is that I would laugh. I would also be scared, but I would laugh. And then another thing is back to these Metanarrative is that I liked horror movies. I guess I just didn't have a way to be as exposed to them as much when I saw Scream. But I mean, in Scream, they're referencing Halloween, The Exorcist, The Howling, Prom Night, Psycho Kerry Frankenstein, Silence of the Lambs. That's just off the top of my head. And I had maybe seen some of those. But like in the year between Scream and Scream, too, I become obsessed basically with any movie that's reference in Scream, I just became obsessed with it. So now I want to go back and rewatch school, be like, Why? Why did they reference that movie? You know, we all go a little mad sometimes. Oh, my God. What that line did to me and how it took me down the psycho rabbit hole and watching all those sequels and scream is directly responsible for my love of this genre, and I still really like this genre. I think it's hard to find really good horror movies nowadays, but Scream was largely a gateway, a gateway drug to a lot of other movies for me. So if we're going to break screen down by scenes, we start with Man If we did a list Best Movie Openings Ever All Time and the decades and decades of this art form, I think this makes my top ten. I'm not even kidding. Goodfellas, definitely the way they introduce you to that trunk. Oh, my God. Drive. I know I'm a little top heavy drives. Very new film, but like you can show drive to anyone know like that opening sequence because it just grabs you scream is, you know, it opens with a perfect 12 minute short film that could like end when the time when you know it cuts to Dev Campbell and it is it is I will never forget seeing this in the theater and being like what the hell is going on here? Because this doesn't look like it's going to go well for her. And just I know a lot of people listening will know this maybe some people won't the selling point of scream the really the only person in it that people were very familiar with was Drew Barrymore. She was the face of the advertising. She was the lead in the trailer. And then there's like that one girl, I think she plays a sister and party of five and. Oh, wait, that OK? Yeah, she's in friends. I know her. So you like but everyone knew Drew Barrymore. You knew who that was and they fuckin take her out right in the beginning. It's my mom. Gasping Is she dead? Just like, look at the hanging from the swing. I'm like, I think so. But it sets this perfect tone of in the subsequent, you know, 90 minutes you're about to watch. Virtually no one is safe because I just took out the star a great nod to Psycho, of course. But Psycho takes, you know, 45 minutes to get there. And this is like, bada boom, bada bing, bang, boom, you're done. I think I brought it up in a previous podcast where, yeah, I think this is like the perfect short film, especially for a horror genre, because in the world of short films, horror is such a huge, huge player in that in that genre, I would I would even venture to guess that like more than half of short films and sketches and things like that revolve around horror. And if you just if there was no other movie after that, that's what I'm saying. And it just ended with that, that horror. Like, I think that's actually the scariest image of the entire movie, is when with her on the swing, with her on the swing in the camera is like shaking like running up to her, like from the parents POV. And we just get that last image of her face and she looks so dead like she is. It's awful, awful, so awful. And yeah, but everything leading up to it because it's, it's fun but then it's also terrifying because it does that one thing that you brought up in your, in your conversation about deliverance of when something that safe gets taken away from you. So yeah having a movie night with popcorn, you know, with the Jiffy Pop going like there's nothing safer than that. And then all of a sudden it is no longer safe and the use of the phones and how terrifying a recurring phone call can then become and all of that just it's such a great great attack on feeling scared and yeah I think it's a perfect short film in that way and you're right because it was no one knew who anyone else was in Drew everyone was set up to be like, oh, this is Drew Barrymore's new movie. Exactly. It was her movie. And the way that they're like, you know, I mentioned a nod to Psycho, but then it also a nod to When a Stranger Calls, which opens. Yeah. Another great sort of short film of a movie and but then Craven's like, I know you guys have seen those movies. That's why we're here. So now I'm going to do something where I and, you know, Janet Leigh did die in Psycho, but you didn't see her die. Watch this. And the babysitter, when a stranger calls, did not die. So watch this. And it's still it's so terrifying. I mean, everything about it, it's it's very well staged, too. I mean, every little note of it, the way that the phone is off the hook and she can hear her. Oh, my God. And that fucking scream the mom lets out. That's like an old timer scream. And the dad just. Oh, man, the car goes the other direction. It's. It's very, very effective. And then when you go back in, when you know who the killers are and you go, like, rewatch it, you're like, oh, boy, you know, Stu was really, really on something, but then. Oh, Billy, I mean, we could just go. We could do it. It's one of the hard things about this podcast are you do all podcasts are billions. Do I? Billy's just. He's over there at Drew's house, screws on over to Nev Campbell's house. Like, this dude is a great a top tier psycho Billy Loomis. Oh, man, he's great. But yeah, that opening scene, going back and seeing this in the theater, you could you could tell who had seen the movie and who hadn't because people. Yeah. I mean, just gasping and screaming and shocking and I can't tell you like how important that the next most memorable scene of this movie is when they're all just sitting there shooting the shit, like at that fountain, you know, you get it. He's eating the grapes and everything, going back and forth, that dynamic. And that's the first time you really start to laugh and you're like, Am I going to be able to laugh in this movie? And still, I mean, do they really fun? They're living in the mailbox. Like, it just it's so fun to go back and watch all these young kids in there now who, you know, they went on to have varying careers. Some became incredibly famous, others not so much, but they're all really, really in sync in the chemistry. It's another thing the chemistry of everyone in this movie is very on point. There's not a false note like skate over. It's like a fucking psychopath. I mean, you just look at him at every turn. That was also one of the greatest tricks in the movie of being, like, the most obvious person that you think is the killer is. Yeah. But then there's this other guy. Gotcha. And, oh, man, that was you talk about the end of Scream like it's the last 50 minutes of the movie. Like, it's bored. It's almost a half of it, you know, and they all the movies in the franchise do this have these big final in pieces. But I think we should just start unpacking this in sequence, which is really bravado filmmaking. If you go and really pay attention like there's not a lot of extras there, he's just using like the same eight or nine people. Yeah, he's using that house so well. Once we're in that house, I'm not turning off the TV like I'm here with it. And even if there's 50 minutes to go, like once I'm here, I'm here the end. I'm here till Gale Weathers is do with that broadcast out front, you know, that's the thing like that house that whole entire night is like, yeah, the half of the movie. Exactly, exactly. It doesn't necessarily feel like that because like they get to the house party and so much happens from that point on that you almost forget that this was all just the same thing. And everything that happens with Gale, everything all the way to the end. And it kind of makes you look at the movie differently because I just never thought of that before. I was like, Wow, we've really like halfway through, we're just at this house and we do not leave. I remember seeing it in theaters when it became clear that Billy was the killer. And but then Stew comes in and does and, you know, and he's like, Surprise me, you could do any he did. You can do you has so much freedom. When you watch Billy and Stu throughout the whole entire movie, the way that they play off of each other, it's so what's in your face? Yeah, exactly. There's this slight bit of him being like, Yo, maybe you're too much over there excited. So obvious, but if you're Wes Craven, you're like, Guys, you can't go too far. No one in the world is ever going to think that it's two. Yeah. Yeah. The more you guys play into it, the better it'll actually be. And he was right. But we get to the complete, utter lunacy of what that whole end scene is now. You also have to remember that in the context of you and I, we're ten, 11 years old. Yes. And we're watching quite possibly really, if you can. It's a very funny scene, but it's also not if you don't have like the, like the proper understanding and maturity level because you're watching two literally unhinged psychopaths just have a field day where they start stabbing each other. I remember watching it and my mom is cracking up, by the way. She is she thinks that this is absolutely hilarious. And I am trying to be like, all right, wait, there's two of them. And these people are not well, like this is not healthy behavior. But then also finding the fun in all of it mixed with like trying to wrap my head around and depravity of it all. It's just amazing. It's so, so fucked up, but it's so good. And Matthew Lillard just like Billy, I think just feel a little queasy you over here at the phone, you dig I don't know if I'd ever seen a movie before it. That's a really important scene that you're referencing because I you know, I listen to commentary this in which Wes Craven and Kevin Williamson, the writer, do, and they're very specific about talking about this. And Wes Craven calls it the most moral moment in the movie because he says these two killers have no clue what actual violence is. They have no idea. They're just going so far. They have no idea that this these are fatal consequences. Like you can't just fucking stab each other, like over and over. And that's what kind of makes it like, oh, these two are they're so, so far off and unhinged. And what I like is that he actually doesn't show at all, particularly when Billy's doing when Billy is stabbing Stu over and over. You just it holds on that Campbell's face, and it's like you're like, oh, my God. I mean, yeah, one of the cool things of this franchise is they have the if there's two killers at the end, they have the, the kind of the duality of motives, like I'm doing it to, you know, we're going to blame the movies or whatever, or I'm just doing it because peer pressure. So there's it's always that. And but this is when you dial into the fact of like no matter what their motives are, like, these two are fucking nuts, nuts. And they play psychopathic very well, but very individually. They're completely their own different. Yeah. Sisters. And they complement each other so well, so well. And it's also tiny little specifics like the line like where he's like a remember to the side and like they like so many inches to like the right and not too deep because they've thought about this. It's one of those things where it's sort of like those little things make it that much more specific and insane because they're like, OK, they're not just stabbing. He said they planned out how and where and we had never seen a complete disregard for what violence is. And if I'm trying to think back to like 1996 in the way that the world kind of looked at violence because that's a very different violence is very, it's very big. It's like Braveheart. Braveheart wins best picture the year before. Like, that's a very violent movie of course, but it's like this epic, like it's violent, you know, it had some like Pulp Fiction is violent, but it's a pulpy type of poppy violence and 96 you're definitely having I mean we can we've talked a lot about the influence that Scream had, but some of the influences on it are definitely you get the Tarantino influence of talking about pop culture people talking like human beings going on tangents. One thing I wanted to ask you, it's so like if you can recall the first time you're seeing it, who do you think the killer is? Like, who is it? You know, because I'm sitting there and I'm like, I definitely think Billy, but even though I'm 11, I think this movie's a little too smart for that. That seems so obvious. So I remember thinking, like, I think Billy or Dewey, but I never, never guessed that it could have been to, like, oh, no. I mean, the thought just never crossed my mind or genuinely anyone. You saw this when it came out, like, I don't know anyone who predicted it, so I just didn't know if you had, like, a were you guessing when you were watching? Like who? The killer. You know, if you know, it's so funny because I haven't thought about that in forever, but I did. I thought it was the father great call. I forgot about him. Great call. They put a lot of investment into building him up, and they do it really well. And they they use him well. Like, it's very smart how they use him, but, man, what a raw deal that guy got at the end, you know, like that. I mean, he's had a raw deal to run for. Wait a minute. We're talking about raw deals. Let's switch. I just want to focus on Hank just for a sec. Let's give my man Hank a little love. That's Billy's dad, folks. A tank Loomis. So, Hank, you know, I think Hank is a victim. Of his own self doing, but he is a bit of a victim because, you know, he cheats on his wife, and then his wife leaves, and then his son goes on this massive killing spree. And I'm just saying, it's a tough row to hoe for Hank. So while we're talking about dads here, poor Mr. Prescott does not. I mean, you know, he got cheated on. His wife was killed like in their house. He had to be implicated in that at least, right? I mean, man locked in a closet. Like, when's the last time you ate? Yeah, it's just it's tough. It's real, real tough. For him while we're talking, because Hank's only in one scene, and, you know, Mr. Prescott isn't that many either. I want to give a very huge shout out to my main man, Liev Shriver, who I have no idea why he is in this movie for, like, 5 seconds. It's on a TV screen. He was he'd been in a few things, but he was a big he was a good, like, indie New York actor. Yeah, but I love that flex of just, like, cotton weary being arrested with no problem it's that there's going to be a scream, too, and like, hey, we're going to give you this, like, massive, substantial role. But I just love that he flashes on screen for just a couple of seconds here. So, so cool that he does that I mean, David Arquette, it's one of those roles where I can't imagine anyone else doing it. Everything that that guy does is just like right there, perfect. For what it's supposed to be. And he's he's Dewey. He is 100% dewy. It's just it's Gary's great. His genuine, like, pathos that he carries into part two with the limp. And he's got a lot of regret and everything and a lot of angst towards Gael part three. You know, once it keeps going like three and four, he I think that's just a testament to those movies that they were increasing the camp a little bit. So Dewey, particularly in three, he's very, very campy. But here, I mean he really does feel like a 26 year old kid who's just this deputy of the small town is kind of fumbling. I mean I love his when you know, Jamie Lee Curtis is like screaming and Halloween's in the background. He's so terrified. It's like, yeah, yeah, you like this and he looks so scared. You really, really believe it. But I to hear him reminisce about the making of this movie and how he was, he sounded like he kind of held court in the hotel room and his room was a party room. And he was just, you know, have made everyone have a great time. And you could really kind of feel that when you watch this. But to see him playing a kind of shy, dimwitted guy, is it never grows old? It's still a ton, ton of fun. One of my favorite moments from the whole entire thing is like when when he hears everyone scream and he because there's nothing funnier than a cop who runs out with a gun in his underwear. Yeah. Yeah. It's like it's the classic, like, you know, thing that you always see. And he runs out. He's like, yeah, he's got his gun. But then he goes to the phone to see who was on it, and he's terrorized of you. Intimidating. Hello? Yeah. And the commentary you know, when, like, Neve Campbell is running out because Billy's just come over and the phone drops and she opens her front door and the mask is there, and she screams, and David Arquette says, Yeah, oh, like that. He was craven. Let him improvise that. He goes, She's going to scream at you. Sort of scream back at her like he doesn't screaming about this. It's like they do a good job of setting him up as like, is this guy really this dimwitted or could he be killing all these kids? I mean, they do a good job of planting the seeds pretty effectively of everyone, even the sheriff with the little cut in of his boots and everything. It's it's well done. It keeps you guessing throughout everyone. And because there's such there's such a idea placed upon the audience, hey, try to figure this out, right? It makes everyone look like a possibility, which is the point. And it's just done so well. One of my favorite little, like, things that I don't know if you noticed this, but the whole entire scene where skeet over sneaks into Nev. Campbell's room in the beginning to try that side. Yeah, sure. Like the trope of, like, after he's just stabbed someone to death. Yes. Yes. And and he's like the whole entire let's take our relationship from PG 13 to our love. It's just I love that analogy. Oh yeah. Man, that was like gold to me as a kid. I was like, oh, my God, what are they? It he just I was watching The Exorcist, like, all the it was like made for TV. It I loved all of it. And then she calls it back, you know, at the end, like, how about a good porno? And you're like, whoa, yeah. It comes back. Oh, boy. If you watch that scene, I don't know who does it, but there is a ballad of Don't Fear the Reaper playing on in the background. Oh, yeah. It's so good. I never noticed noticed that until like this last viewing because playing the whole entire time it I was like I said, don't fear the reaper. I mean, I had the soundtrack so I remember that very well from the soundtrack. Another huge reason that Scream is important to me because I remember when this VHS came out, it was a two set VHS, and I'm like, This movie isn't long enough. This is in The Godfather part three. Like, it's. Yeah, why are there two cassettes in the second? The first one is a movie. The second cassette was this really weird thing called a commentary. Half the director and the writer are going to talk while the movie plays. So I put this on and of course I turned it off after like 5 minutes and I'm like, this is all like, what the hell am I watching? And, you know, jump ahead just a few weeks later. Well, I really, like, scream today. What if they're going to teach me anything that's 25 years ago? That's the first commentary I ever listen to. I talk about commentaries a lot on this podcast for the simple reason of what taught me most as a filmmaker were commentaries. Without question. That's how I learned. So here's a perfect case in point. I listened to the commentary yesterday just going back, and I remember hearing some of this stuff for the first time, like they're talking about. I mean, just bear with me here. Basically, they're talking about crane shots, Steadicam master shot, boom, mikes, continuity errors. I never heard of any of this stuff. I know. Ten years old. I don't know what I'm of. 11 years old. I don't know what a master shot is. What's a master shot? What's a wonder? I don't know any of this stuff. This is pre-Internet, or at least I don't have Internet by now. So I'm writing all this stuff down like furiously and going to film books like, oh, this is OK, Steadicam. Oh, that that became popular because of The Shining and doing so to say that scream planted all these seeds and helped me connect all these threads to so many movies. That's why it will always be one of the most important movies I've ever seen. And just hearing your first commentary, and it's a good commentary, like you learned a lot about the movie. It's good. It's not one of the best commentaries ever recorded, but it being my first man. Oh, my God, completely changed how I look at movies and how I mean, Wes Craven is such a nice guy. He was such a nice guy. Despite the movies he made in the subject material by all accounts, this is a sweet, sweet, sweet man who after he wraps like a 15 hour day, he just goes out birdwatching by himself for two, 3 hours because he was an avid birdwatcher, just and got along with everyone, just the sweetest, sweetest man. And to hear him talk about his moving, he's like up there's a boom mike. And, you know, they're just talking about, oh, my God, you know, this last scene God. Scene 118, Jesus. It took so long and just he's talking about it like a director. What did I get? I mean, I'm getting excited just talking about it. Oh, my God. It was so influential for me. And of course, Wes Craven is passed. So going on my screen binge yesterday of I watched the first four movies with the commentary on and it was it was great to just hear him reminisce and yeah, I mean, shout out to Wes Craven, of course. But yeah, the Scream DVD commentary, the Scream VHS commentary in fact, Big Four, big, big, big for me growing up. Oh, man, dude, I never knew that. You know, the first commentary you listen to, it was definitely something from you because I never liked that. Was that my my filmmaking? The whole entire journey really started just because I wanted to make content for myself. So I never thought about being a filmmaker. So those things never really seemed important to me. I liked deleted scenes. I like the bloopers me too. I was a very average going DVD watcher, so whenever I would see the option for a commentary, I was that asshole. That was sort of like, Oh my God, why do they always put these on here? And then like when you basically said exactly what you said when we first met whereas like my whole entire film education came from commentaries. Yeah. And then you put me on. You're like, like you don't have much time before we get into pre-production. So if you can only watch like these commentaries, start with these. Dude, my whole entire world opened up because of that, and it is 100% right. Like the film education you get from commentaries on DVDs is irreplaceable. It's, it's because it's coming directly from the source. Yes, coming directly from the source. So like go one of one of my favorite pages on IMDB is IMDB trivia. You have to know when you read that, though, that a lot of it can be bullshit because anyone can add their own stuff. But if a movie has a commentary, I guess I know for a fact that 90% of that trivia is from the commentary because you're pulling it from the source. And, you know, some can make the argument, I don't want to just read the commentary or Why don't I just read the trivia? Because not everyone transcribes the commentary into trivia. You still get to learn like cool shit and it's also in like the tone, like the way they talk about people. Like, apparently, well, Phil, they scream and scream too. And his one scene in Scream three, Wes Craven has many good things to say about Jamie Kennedy and how nice he is and how funny and jovial. But the dude threw out three commentaries Wes Craven will not shut up about how Jamie Kennedy cannot remember a line to save his life. It's like, I love him. Good guy, can't remember a line to save his life. We have to edit around him. And he's like, Jamie, I hope you're listening to this. You can't remember lines for shit. It's just, you know, stuff like that. So yeah, very that's what I've always said to people. Like, you know, when people ask me how I know a lot about movies, a lot of that trivia is from commentaries and just taking that in. And I learned about commentaries because of this one. Sure. But after I heard this one, I noticed that like Spike Lee, there are few guys, a few directors who do commentaries are used to anyway for all of their movies. Spike Lee, Oliver Stone, Ridley Scott, Steven Soderbergh, none of them do anymore, which sucks. But Spike Lee was always like, if you want to make movies and you're not listening to the commentaries of your favorite filmmakers, then you're missing out on free education because that's what it is. It's just education. And this is not to say that every commentary is gold, that it's far, far from the case in general. Avoid commentaries done by actors. Otherwise, you know, you're going to you're going to learn something hopefully. And if it's a movie that you like, then you're definitely going to walk away with some really cool shit. I don't know. It is that important. If you are a filmmaker like it, it really is. It's a free education. It's like getting a library card, like in Good Will Hunting when he's like, You just paid. You go to film school and you use a dollar 50 and lay charges at the public library. Yeah, for a library. That's exactly what this is like because film commentaries are that. But that's really a testament to you for being that young and kind of stumbling upon it, but at the same time hearing everything and being curious and interested and then going in like literally like, oh, yeah. Writing down all of the things that you didn't know. And then basically, yeah, probably having to go to a library or whatever to try to find like, oh, was a loser because you got, you got to think about like if, if it's pre-internet and you hear the phrase master shot in a movie, like, I'm like, so then I would rewind it and go, OK, he says, this is a master. I think because of the context he's saying it. And I think that means that's the first shot of a scene and it's like really far back. So you can see a lot of people's faces, which, you know, now is like wide angle. You want it wide so you can see everyone. But I'm like piecing this together, this is this is just where my how to make a movie. It comes from this and I'm piecemealing all this stuff together and figuring it out. And unfortunately, I think because of lack of interest, commentaries are not very popular anymore. Really, like at all. All those directors I mention, none of them even even bother with commentaries anymore because they don't feel like it's useful output because I guess they're not getting feedback on them. I don't know, Steve. I demand of information I've learned from Steven Soderbergh commentaries I just I cannot tell you in the fact that he hasn't done one since like The Informant or the Girlfriend experience or I don't know, it's it's a real shame. But yeah, the art, the lost art of the great DVD Blu ray commentary. Well, I think it's because of the mentality that I had when I was younger and seeing a DVD commentary. If you're even if you were like, I was a like a mad movie buff, but I wasn't going to it towards education, you know, I just really enjoyed absorbing as much content that I could. But commentaries seem to I remember always kind of thinking of it as why would I if I'm going to watch the movie? Why would I spend the exact same time not being able to watch it and just listen to other people talk? Fair point of course, which is valid if that's not what you're looking for. But when you talk about what you can unearth in terms of knowledge and in education from it, it's unrivaled. And it is a shame that it's not being done anymore. Because, I mean, you talk about in this way, any filmmaker who's working right now says the exact same thing about filmmaking commentaries and as DVDs are kind of a dying thing, really what that leaves is, is it's almost like vinyl now. People go back now to listen to records. It's like people are kind of going back to be like, wait, there was a DVD that was released that had a commentary and you can find them, but it's becoming a relic in that way where hopefully they'll resurface artifacts that will be you know, like you got to find the commentary. It only came out on laserdisc, but it's got this one commentary. Again, this is kind of a dying, lost art. But for the man movie buffs out there, I promise. And the commentaries are not reserved for aspiring filmmakers alone. You know, that's not the. No, no, it's a really cool way to just learn a lot if you really. OK, so do you ever looked at like that AFI list and you're like, why is Citizen Kane number one? I promise you, I promise. If you watch, listen to Roger Ebert's commentary for Citizen Kane. Just listen to a half hour of it. You're going to be like, holy shit. I never noticed a quarter of the stuff he's mentioning like this. Movie is way, way smarter than I thought, for all the reasons he's pointing out. And it's funny to end the commentary for Scream because they're very excited because they're like, We're already in pre-production on Scream two because usually record commentaries before the movie is released theatrically. So they're in pre-production in which Wes Craven admits this is the shortest kind of time that a sequel or any movie of his has been greenlit. So they're rushing this thing. And, you know, when you rush a sequel back then and today, it usually doesn't go that well. But when I mentioned the Entertainment Weekly kind of little blurb, that screen got screened too, for the fall movie preview is like on the fucking cover. It's everyone is excited for this movie. So the anticipation is absolutely massive. And yet, as mentioned, it just lives up to the hype, the love the enjoyment I had for the first one. It's not better than the first one. I don't know if anyone would stretch that far. I don't think it's even trying to be, but it lives so well in its shadow. And again, it just I mean, there is God, there's Evil Dead, too. There's Dawn of the Dead, which isn't like a direct sequel. There's Gremlins to the new batch. I don't know. Seriously, I love Scream, too. I just think it's like the best horror movie sequel ever that's on screen, too. Were you excited? Obviously, I can't shut up about it. I was very, very excited. Christmas vacation, 1997 in 1997 was a great year for film. I'd seen some good ones. Nothing nothing. Nothing was on the level of Scream two. But since you were a fan of the first one and thought in the theater, like, where were you at walking into screen two? You know, what was really cool was that I remember going with my uncle and my mom and it had to be opening weekend. It was, it was almost as rowdy as the crowd in the opening scene. Of Scream two. Like we went, Yeah, exactly. Oh man. Yes. Saying that table that I'm going to I forgot to mention that. Yes. Yes. Like, like people like were wearing the ghosts face masks. There were literally like like there was that I had never been at a movie that where there was that type of energy going on. Like I was even going to see the Star Wars movies, the prequel, not the prequels but the when they read when they read the originals. Yep. Yeah. And like the nerd dome that was going on there. But there was nothing like this screen two movie theater experience I had. My uncle was uncomfortable are they going to, like, stop all of this before the movie starts? Like, this is, you know, he didn't know what to think. I was just sort of like, wow, this is this is crazy. And then it starts the way it does. And I'm like, it's like we're right there. I walked into it in kind of what we were talking about with our PTA episode with expectations. I was expecting something so much more. I don't know. I remember kind of being let down by the movie when I saw it in theaters, had not seen it since then and watched it again for the for our podcast today. And I am just kicking myself. It being such a classic full of how how could I have been so let down by something that was just so much fun. Oh my God, I had the glass of blast rewatching this and I think it holds up better today for many reasons. Number one is Laurie Metcalf, Debbie Salt. I love her at this time. Unfortunately, not many people really know who she is. She is such an acclaimed theater actor. In 1997 when I found out that and Jackie from Roseanne was a killer. Exactly. I'm actually I, I already was checked out and I go and Jackie's the fucking killer of this movie. Are you kidding me? Let's grab our shit, everyone. We're out of here. I was upset. I was not happy. And now you remove all of that. You've also now Laurie Metcalf is kind of a little bit more well known for Lady Bird and. Sure. So when I look at it now, I don't have that in Jackie. And now I'm like, that's Billy Loomis fucking mom. And and it becomes a much more well-rounded to me. Reveal of her and watching her kind of make chicken shit out of chicken salad or no chicken salad out of chicken shit, you know, because some of that dialog is like, not great. It's not a negative disparaging remark about my son. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Like, now, why does the gun Sidney raise to Randy read? He adds a bad thing say about my boy Billy. So I had to get a little nice happy yeah, exactly. Like it's just like she is like she is making like making $1,000,000 off of this and Timothy Olyphant as well. Like, let's give a shout out to him. Same deal, like no one at the time. And he fucking sees this. Yeah, it's right. Yeah. I feel like the overall direction for that whole entire end sequence between the two of them was, was going to be like, Listen, there is nothing bad you can do here, so you may as well just go for broke like, just go. Go for it. Send it up. Oh, I love it. And now watching it for me personally, like when you look at the whole entire cast, like that is a yep. You got Sarah Michelle Gellar, who I loved Buffy. So I was a huge fan of See Her, Joshua Jackson. I loved Dawson's Creek. I loved The Mighty Ducks movies so well. And, you know, Scream and Scream, too, written by Kevin Willis, who also created Dawson's Creek. Yes, exactly. So watching this movie now, I am like really going back in time and just having a field day with everything I'm seeing and being removed from the, you know, expectations that I unfairly had as a child watching it. I so I, I I, I really I agree. And now I agree. I think this is probably, if not the best, one of the best sequels to any horror movie. And it's at first like it's just so much fun. Jerry O'Connell. Oh, God. Oh, God, he's great. Derek Bad. I love him. I mean, you really like when he's slung up on that cross and he's, like, going to fucking kill you, like, you really believe him? He's good there. He's really good, dude. And the way that all often fan, it's like, come on, it's OK, dude. We got her. Like, it's fine. I oh, man, that's such a good little misdirect. I love that. I love that. And when it finally all comes down to it and that and Jerry O'Connell fucking dies you're like this whole entire time because he is a credible, possible person. That was the killer, like, for so many reasons, of course. And then just to find out that this whole entire time he's just that good of a guy, and he's fucking nice. That genuine. He's so nice. It's like the best boyfriend ever. Yeah, exactly. Interestingly, in the first draft, of the script, Derek and Howie, the roommate were secret lovers, and they were the killers. But I guess that script leaked online said scrap that which I think it's kind of. Yeah, I know, I know. I thought that was kind of cool. I mean, it goes through just listening to the commentary about how they went through basically anyone that you suspect they went down that rabbit hole and probably wrote a draft of that person being the killer. So it's kind of funny that they let Dodd Debbie Salt in on Mickey here. Mickey, that freaky Tarantino film student. OK, we got a lot to unpack here. I want to go back. I completely forgot that. Yes. The vibe and the atmosphere before this movie started and during the previews, I remember they showed a preview for the wedding singer. Like that's how vividly I remember my screen to experience. And people were just losing their minds I didn't dress up. I mean, I probably wouldn't. But I mean, so many people are dressed up in masks and everything. I don't even think you could get into a movie theater now doing that, you know, like dressed up, head to toe. I don't think so. It was totally different time. And then as the movie's going along, like, people were really jazzed because that those two opening deaths are like fuckin awful and gruesome. But like, if I may, I mean, I think they got killed because they're such fucking terrible moviegoers. It's like, Oh, who's there? It's like 5 minutes into the movie to go get popcorn at Pepsi. And then 2 minutes after that, the dude leaves to go to the bathroom. It's like, well, I mean, what do you expect me to think of a movie? But Omar Epps death is, like, so intense, the way he pulls his head off the knife, not the other way around. It's like, oh, it just hurts to watch. And then the Jada Pinkett Smith being killed publicly like that is, I don't know, it says it just reminded me a lot of like all the other phone videos we see now. People like getting hurt and people not doing anything. It's really I don't know, it's it it was effective then. It was really disturbing. Then I'm like, man, everyone's just, like, cheering along. Yeah, yeah, go. And then she's dead. It's it's a really this is as if Wes Craven is going. I know, I know. We can't do better than Drew, but you're in good hands. Just follow me along. And it's really good. It's a really effective opening. But, yeah, the theater was, like, absolutely nuts. Nuts. It's 100% right about that opening scene because even when I was rewatching it and kind of forgetting how it went, I'm like, Oh, that's right. There's a whole entire, like, opening scene. Yeah. And I'm like, it can't do with scream one does and you're right. It doesn't. It can't. Nothing could. But as it keeps unfolding and every new little thing starts to happen by the time that that scene's over, I am like, You're right, it's so effective. I'm like, Fuck, man. Yeah. I mean, and there is something about that Jada Pinkett, when she's just got, like, the blood coming out of her mouth and she's like, Oh, I know. And then they're like, after she falls, the camera, like, holds on her for a long time. Yeah, like, cut, goddammit. Why am I still looking at her and there's nothing more terrifying than being in a crowd like this. I think that's what it brings up, is like, that idea of someone just being killed in the midst of you, and you had no idea that something like. I mean, it's truly, truly disturbing. And it. Yeah, like, so you get the individual death of Omar, which is just gruesome. I mean, and kind of awesome at the same time. Brutal. Brutal. Well, I mean, we're talking about horror movies, so, like, yeah, it's a yeah, it's a good kill. It's like, you got to have fun. Very effective. That's when the because that's when everything changes because up until now, you kind of got like the whole, like, girlfriend boyfriend, the back and forth dialog. She doesn't want to be there is this crazy movie going on, but now he's dead. And now the killer has assumed his identity and now the tension is there. Whether you want it to or not, you're invested because he's coming back and he's wearing the mask. And now let's all face that's why there's tension because we know that it's not him, but she doesn't know. So you're like, when the hell is she going? It's just it's very smart. It's very, very smart. And I love it, though, like, it's like like that's a death that's well deserved because two people were awful moviegoers. They're terrible movie goers. Come on. You can't leave here in the beginning like that. The beginning of the movie. Heather Graham's on screen oh, bad. Oh, man. I want to tell you, like, I wasn't the most enthusiastic student in middle and high school and everything but I will tell you, I was never excited for college until I saw the scene of these kids talking about movie sequels. Yeah, course it's. And I was like, can that be with college? It's like that. Everyone's talking about James Cameron and Aliens and Terminator, and thank you, Ridley Scott. Rules like are, but it's still one of my favorite sides of the whole franchise. And I just I love the introduction to, you know, Mickey's there he's talking about godfather to great that's just I remember see that being very excited for the prospect of every college course being like that and I had one or two but certainly not all of them but no certainly not that and I had to agree with the guy that that keeps keep shouting out for the Cameron movies when they're having the conversation what's a better sequel. The aliens get a hard on for T and I'm like 100% 100% and aliens is not better than alien thank you Ridley Scott rules no aliens is not no it's not it's my personal favorite just because I grew up with it and I loved it so much. But no alien is is a far superior filmmaking outing that aliens aliens is just got I love it so much and t to there's an argument there is an argument like T2 is better than Terminator one. Yeah I mean it doesn't have bank of being but you know what you know it's OK. It's OK. One of the reasons that I did want to talk about Scream two and give it some attention because seeing this movie in the theater with like everyone's bringing in the good will of scream. Everyone loves scream. Everyone's excited for scream to very few times in my life going to a movie theater, have you hear the expression you can cut the tension with a knife. When Cindy Prescott and her roommate Holly have to get out of that cop car. Ooh, all over ghost face, that is still one of the most effective, just scary scenes in a movie ever. And then you could add a little caveat to that in which nothing bad happens as a result. Not immediately, anyway. Yeah. And you're like, OK, there's no way Sidney's going to get away with this. No way. Holy shit she does. There's no fucking way that Ruby gets out of this. And I remember very vividly seeing that in just it's like no one was breathing during that sequence. And I think that's one of the scenes that makes Scream to stand out a lot because that is an expert sequence of like, everything just kind of slows down and we just got to get out of this car. It's something very, very simple and it's terrifying. It's simple. It's a very, very simple idea. Of fear. The only way out is to go out through the back seat, crawl into the front seat, crawl out the window over to the danger. It's because you can so easily put a frame of context to what that must feel like in your body. Like crawling over and touching those things to reach over and through the door. Like, I think it's just it's a primal all sensory agreement that everyone can kind of know what that feels like and like how what we've all probably had to, like, maneuver or tiptoe literally. I mean, this literally, physically, like at some point in our life, you've ever had to, like, literally tiptoe around something or someone. You make your point. Maybe it was an animal. Maybe you like small dog and you're just walking and you're like fucking things out on a leash. Yeah. Staring at me like I'm just going to kind of go this way. We all and it's scary because you're like, what are we going to do if this thing notices me, like, my guard is going to do this, do this, and yeah. So you're right. It is. It's a it's so it's very relatable because it's so simple. Like, a lot of us have been sucked out by a guy in a ghost mask with a giant knife or we have gotten prank phone calls where we could potentially die. Yeah. But a lot of us have had to, like, be put in a situation where you have to, like, tiptoe, even if it's like, I'm going to sneak out of work early. Yeah, well, my boss, like, we all know that feeling of, like, I'm trying to get away with something and not get caught a little bit to whatever degree it is. Yeah, exactly. And that's exactly right. And that and I think that's that's why that's so good is so terrifying because you're right. Like, that's, that's got to be one of the scariest scenes in any horror movie because of that tension. And you're right like how it it's also double because the roommate now has to get out like never a man is like somehow manages to our hero manages to escape it. But surely the roommate the trope of the best friend who is completely expendable, she's not getting out of this fucking car and then she does it all to die just a couple of minutes later. But yeah, a couple of minutes. Yeah, a couple of seconds later. Yeah. But you're right, though, like the most tense horror, scary scene ends in victory, at least temporarily. You know, Annette Campbell, really? Her character, Sidney, she's responsible for her friend's death right there because they could have gotten away. They could have run just like she's like, no, I got I got to go. I got to go do this for me. I got to go unmask him. And it's like. Right. She just killed her best friend. Well, yeah. I mean, you know, you got to suspend a little logic for these, of course. But I mean, there are some other great set pieces like the the Dewey Gale soundproof room thing is oh, yeah. I remember seeing that in the way, you know, when Dewey gets he's trying to get her attention and he gets his foot calling the pizza, and then he gets stabbed and she, like, doesn't see it. It was I mean, people were just gasping like, oh, my God, this is because that that, of course, comes after, like, Randy, which is probably, you know, the most shocking, the shot, which is so talk about effect of it's so effective because it's in the daytime and there's so many people around and you have a few like a full, open view of everything. And so that happens and it's like oh, man, are they really going? And then they do Dewey and you think he's out of it. But that's and again, there's something physical about that scene that makes it so watchable and compelling is the I mean, in so many movies do it. But that idea of being in a room where there's like lots of places to kind of, like, run around a corner. Yeah. Yeah. And so you're kind of like in a maze. Yeah. It just I don't know why that just translates to film so well. Like, any time, like, there's like, it really does. It just really does. You could put that if you're making a horror movie and you're like, all right, so we're going to this is going to be the maze scene. We're going to do like a cat and mouse thing and a maze. You're like, well, everyone's going to be really interested in that. But you always yeah, you always know where you are and everything. Like, he's that's that's Wes Craven. He's very good at establishing, like, here's where we are. So when you're in that little AV room, you're like, OK, you kind of get that. I don't know exactly where the theater is, but it's not that far. Like they direct. So it all just it fits and you feel like you're in this contained space, which really works and you're not ever trying to guess like, wait, what the hell's going on? Yeah, and and that's so crazy because we're talking about spatial, like, fear in two scenes. And then the Jamie Kennedy is like the, like, complete open space, like, exactly. Like, actually in the fact that all three of these action horror scenes happen in the same movie is pretty cool when you talk about variety for just, you know, horror deaths or scenes. Yeah. Nick, did you know there are only 97 active serial killers in the United States like 97 you know like there's 97 only Bill are you talking about I remember died seven I looked over my friend Chris and we saw this movie that was like wait there's 97 zero. What the fuck. There's that many I love that like a and they're talking about it like, oh, it was really hard to find each other because only 97 of them in the country like Holy shit, come on. I mentioned it briefly because he has a great 5 seconds on screen and scream, the man who wins Scream two is my main man live. Schreiber got in the way. I think he has the biggest flex of the franchise because he's barely in the first one. He's a bona fide costar of Scream two and steals almost all of his scenes. I really love his introduction when he kind of just comes up behind Gail and the music cues up and you know, Sidney's like, What the hell is he doing here? And then in Scream three, he gets the coveted Drew Barrymore role, which is kind of fun. But I loved it. In Scream two, the first time we see Cotton We Are Again is on a television screen, and I remember seeing that being like, Oh, that's oh, that's right, that's the guy. And I didn't think he was going to be a character. And then you talk about like the probably the most believable villain, like, this is the killer this could this would very rationally be Ghostface. He's got the motive. But I just love everything. I love its timing in it. I love when they're in the police station. And Gail's looking at him, and he just takes that really long pause. And he's like, Gail enjoying the show. Like, I just he really had a command and he grew a lot as an actor between 96 and 97. I've always been a huge fan of Liev Schreiber, but I just love him. I love him. It's cotton weary. I think he's very, very good and smooth. The character's intention for Cotton Weary is pure fame. He just wants this medium or yeah, it's like he and the way like as those stutters like get Gail, you don't, don't walk away from me, Gail. It just I think I said the word pathos earlier, but it's really true for him here too. Like, he puts a lot into this guy. He puts a lot into a guy. That's if he has got no context for any emotional like feelings towards anyone yeah. He just wants what he wants. That's how he goes about pursuing it. And it's great because he's an asshole you make it. He makes you think that he's possibly the killer. He's so awkward around Nev. Campbell, it's that library scene, the proxy committee that I love that I love that Diane Sawyer. Come on here. Yeah. Like, and he just skips all these levels from being like, hey, I just want to talk. I just want to talk to exactly. To straight up insulting and just, like, invading someone's personal space. Prescott, you look at the script, if you're that actor, you're like, really? This guy is there's just really like, I don't I have I have open carte blanche to what I can do here. So I'm just going to be like, you know what I want, what I want. I don't care how I get it. I'm just going to go after it. Yeah. And he plays it all the way. Well, right until his last second, but oh, God. And then really like the like who knows what he would have done if Nev. Campbell, when she's about to be killed and he's got the gun if she doesn't say, consider it done. Like that was he's like, all right, decisions made you get to live. Yeah. He's like, OK, go. And that he tried to he's like, you know, I would never do anything to hurt. I love she's like, give me the gun. And he's like, yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. I need you. I'd rather get our story straight. Do you notice how any of the musical score sounded familiar? Scream two has almost the exact same movie score as Broken Arrow. Oh, my God. With Christian Slater. John Travolta. So when you go back and watch them do another movie, I love, by the way, it's such a good movie, but it's so funny. Yeah. It's just like these huge strings. Sometimes it's great, too. You're like, Oh, they're going really big here. That. Yeah, that's because of Broken Arrow. There's, like, a nuclear bombs about to explode you know, it's. It's it's so true. It's that. Grace. Yeah, that. Oh, my God, that's so funny. I kind of had a sense, like, this is it. I'm sure there will be more and I will see them, don't get me wrong. And I was excited for screen three, three years later, but I knew that it wasn't going to live up to it, and it didn't. It's fine. Like, it's not. I can't call it terrible. It's not a terrible movie. It's nowhere good. It's too. But the kind of going to Hollywood Ultra Metanarrative is a lot of fun for me. And but when I watch the movie, it really feels just kind of like rushed in that they were cobbling it together, which from listening to the commentary, they were they were writing scenes the day they were shooting them. It seems like it was kind of hard for any of the cast to, you know, have a thread to hold on to because the movie started well without a finished script. And but, you know, there's some solid moments. Carrie Fisher has a great cameo, which is a lot of damn fun. I Scream three is probably one of the most unmemorable moviegoing experiences I've ever had and scream for the only. The always fun thing I'd say about Scream four is so my buddy Scott, I don't know how we would get along sometimes because his point of view on movies sometimes was just like, right on the money. Like we had the exact same taste. But then he would also hate so many good movies for awful reasons, and he didn't care. His whole entire thing is he just wants logically things to make sense. So it can be a really awful awful movie. But if it works logically, he thinks it's great. So watching Scream four and Scream Four I'm Cutting You Off is the most illogical horror movie. Yeah, one of the most I've ever seen. So if you tell me this dude likes this fucking movie, I'm to like losing because I literally have one note for scream for that. It's like, I know that if we watch a horror movie, we have to suspend logic. But this is a bridge way, way, way too far. For me. Sorry. Continue there. Do you see where you're going? Your anger is exactly my point, because I'm in the movie theater watching this because he was looking forward to this movie so much like we went to see it together opening night, and. And I'm just like, I keep checking in and looking at him because I'm like, he's got to hate this because of that. Because I'm like, logically, this movie is all over the place. And I keep looking over at him and he's smiling the entire time, like he's having the grand old time. And when it was over, I still kind of go, would you think he just goes? It's everything I wanted it to be. Wow. And I go, Oh, so everything you wanted it to be discussed. This lake lodges all of your criteria for what you actually look for in a movie. I'm like, You're so full of shit. Yeah. That's I mean, that's literally the definition of nostalgia. That if it just hits all those chords. We just talked about this. Yeah, that's true. It wasn't what I expected. So if you bring something in and you're like, Oh yeah, it hit all those chords for me. I do want to rewind a little bit like Scream for I've seen this movie have some researchers on Twitter. People start bringing it up. This movie does have a lot of fans, like a lot and. Oh, yeah, do you? I'm not here to hate on anyone who likes any movie, but I mean, this is a scream one and scream two podcasts. I don't know if we can talk about the end of Scream four, but that's where my logic the faulty logic comes in. Because I never believe for a second that those two people that they say are the killers could physically have done what the movie entails. I don't think they can, like, throw people around. I don't think they can pick people up. And I'm like, I do appreciate that. Where Scott, to end his career with this franchise, I know that probably wasn't planned because his passing was untimely, but it's just there's not a lot for me to hang on to with Scream four. And you know, another reason we're doing this podcast is that Scream five is out this weekend, scream five, a.k.a, scream, whatever they're officially calling it. But it doesn't take anything away from one and two to me. So it certainly doesn't take any way, anything away from one and two. So one and two live on their own surface. Well, I mean, look at it this way. I mean, you're talking about like we're kind of following the classic horror movie franchise, the like like, I mean, Halloween. I mean, granted, I like for like four and five, but but I mean, it's kind of the same thing. Like, you get like these like if it if it keeps going, you're going to have like a few peppered in there that are actually going to be like, wow, you, man, that was really good. That was like almost as good as one and two. Mm hmm. And, you know, you get those couple in the middle that you're like, oh, that wasn't so great. Yeah. Yeah. We know there's a lot of problems, everything. But then we got it right with this one. Every franchise has some ideas. Even the people that like our big saw fans, there's ones that are they have their legs. Sure. Yep, yep. And then there's ones that are like, Oh, that's almost as good as the first one. I mean, so I'm rooting for it. I'll probably go and see it if someone wants to go because I won't see it by myself, I will need someone to hold on to. I am I am definitely someone that that's curious. Like, I don't I don't as far as expectations go, right. I don't have any because I don't have any. I'm like, OK, it better be as good as one or two or is it going to kind of like be what, three and four where? No, let's just see what happens. And there it is. I think we've arrived in our at the end of our screen conversation. Any other final thoughts here before we move on to what are you watching? Well, I'm first up today for what are you watching? I said finally, you know, if we could maybe stay on theme for picking a good like horror movie sequel. So yeah, we've been talking about yeah, scream three and scream four. Not really living good in the shadows. Scream one or two. You know, movie does live in the shadow. Well, is scream fucking five, motherfucker. This movie is awesome. I saw this shit last night. This movie fucking rocks oh, me fucking rocks. I'm putting my foot down, putting my name on it. It is in theaters now. This is a fucking great movie. Theater movie. It is fun. It is gory without being gratuitous. It has major, major, major balls for a modern horror slasher film. I have not seen another slasher film this effective without being overly gory and gratuitous in years. I fucking loved this movie. Loved it. This is a movie that it's made by directed by radio silence. These are the two guys who made Ready or Not a few years ago really groovy. Movie. And the most important thing for Scream five A.K.A, Scream, whatever they're calling it is, is this good for the fans? Does this like service the fans? That's step one. And then is it a good movie? And both. It exceeded every expectation I had. I'm not trying to build it up too much for you, but I was like, hold me shit. I cannot fucking believe they brought this this much intelligence into it. They are openly addressing the very confusing metanarrative as it relates to film in general and as it relates to screen. There are two leads in it. Two new women who I looked him up on IMDB after they have big careers. They've been a lot of stuff. They're fucking incredible. I was just floored. I was completely floored. And it is, I cannot wait to see it again. I was obviously burying the lead. Anyone like root it, but please, everyone go see this movie. It is such a good movie theater movie people. I was there with a crowd where there were definitely some fans of the original. We were cheering at some parts. My jaw was dropped at some of the kills. I was like, Holy shit. I mean, they're just going for it. The people they bring back, everyone's great. It's great. It's absolutely great. I never, never thought that I would be saying this about this movie, just sitting here, like giving our brief thoughts on Scream three and Scream four about how, you know, Scream three like that controlled Scream four. Enough for us. This is they're taking all of that into account and just going back to the source and made a very good, very effective movie that I cannot fathom. If you are as diehard of a fan of as the originals were saying, I cannot fathom that you will dislike this. It would be I just can't if you just like wander into this movie called Scream and you've never heard of the other ones. I mean, I don't know, maybe it work, but I yeah, I loved it. I'm like itching. I kind of want to see it again tonight. I'm not even kidding. I said, please, people go see it. I'm not going to talk about what it's about or anything like that. Maybe we'll do like a little mini soda about it a little later. But yes, I loved it. And I really, really, really want you to go see it because I just I think you will like it. That's all I can say. There are a few things in it that you will appreciate very much. Very much. All right. Well, I mean I mean, I mean I mean, unfortunately, all of all of our mad movie buffs are never going to see the the level of of glowing this that you have on your face right now. That I am seeing that I have to fucking go. I know when you get excited, but this was there's I will tell you after you see it. But there were two scenes in particular where I mean, during one of them, I kind of just put my hands up and was like, oh, you're doing it like you have succeeded. You've done it. You've met us, this. I mean, I'm, you know, you've met these crazy fans on this level. You're not pandering to us. You're treating us with intelligence. This is funny. There's enough to latch on to from the previous movies. You've also created your own story. Fucking God bless them. Amen. I don't know if there will be more. I don't know. I guess it depends how much money this makes. I if an end here cool and that that's fine with me, but I yes, I absolutely loved it. And I would not be bullshitting you people. I wouldn't I wouldn't be, like, just trying to go get people to see this. If this movie was as good as Scream four, I would very begrudgingly be telling people that that is not the case. This is a this is just a fucking great movie and it's a great slasher movie. It's a great horror film, great slasher, great scream film. What do you have for what are you watching? I say, Why did you make me go west? After that? It's not good. I can't even begin to even to muster the level of energy that it would take to follow that. So I'm just going to say it. My what are you watching? Is Halloween six the curse of Michael Meyers with Paul Rudd? Oh, dude, this is hilarious because I for a second there, I thought you're going to say H2O because I fucking love him. No, no, I. I do too. Though. I went on a before the recent Halloween came out, I was a Halloween kills Dave and Gore green one. I went and watched all of them just in a row because all I got and yeah the Paul Ryan blood fund if we're talking about like a long franchise but movies that like maybe have like a couple of dozen there but then have some ones that kind of like bring it back. Sure sure for his giant of a Mike Myers Halloween fan that I was as a kid, I remember the Paul Rudd one happening and I was just sort of like because I didn't because Paul Rudd wasn't exactly a name at that time. He had done Clueless. And I go, is that is that the guy from Clueless and then watching it, I loved the idea and it was like one of the first times I remember seeing like a callback to something old because he plays Tommy Doyle, which is the kid that Jamie Lee Curtis is babysitting in the very first Halloween. So to be like, Oh my God, it's the kid. Like, what a crazy throwback. And he's this weird you know, messed up, you know, from Trauma Kid. Now he's got all these like theories and and I got to give credit to Paul Rudd. He goes for it like, he, he right yeah. He does that out of that is a young actor with with a big role going with a big role. Yeah. And I am going to spoil it a little bit because one of the coolest things about him, he is one of the only people in all of Halloween to go toe to toe with Michael Meyers and walk out alive it's true. It's the dude I can like kicks his ass. And McKinley was so it's also just a it's a it's a it's a fun slasher flick. It's it's definitely up there with the the Halloween franchise movies from what I understand, it sounds like it's a little bit better than some of the newer stuff that has come out I've heard. Yeah. I mean, I, I don't know if they're OK. Jim Cummings has a really funny, like, kind of supporting role in the most recent one, and he's just, he's. He's funny. Yeah. Yeah, he's funny. But Halloween H2O has always been a huge favorite of mine. When I heard Tarantino go on a podcast recently and he said he put in a lot of work on Bob Weinstein to try to get Jamie Lee Curtis nominated for an Oscar for that performance. He's like, Oh, wow, we're off the mark here. She is fucking incredible. And this she's playing a convincing alcoholic with this horrific trauma, like you and I just love, like, hearing that Tarantino was trying to, like, really push what a major studio had to, you know, nominate Jamie Lee for this kind of B-movie. But Halloween, it shows. It's a great movie. So yeah. Hey, good call, Scream five, Halloween six, whatever it is, man. I'm so glad we got to talk about Scream one and Scream two. So much fun, man. Thanks so much for this dove down memory lane. What a joy it was to talk about these two movies. Go see Scream five in theaters if you can. Don't wait for streaming. This one's really good. In the theater. As always, thank you so much for listening and happy watching. Who what's the point? They're all the same. Some stupid killer stalking some big breasted girl who can act as always running up the stairs and she should be going out the front door. That's Hey, everyone, thanks again for listening. You can watch my films and read my movie blog at Alex Withrow dot com. Nicholas Doe Stockham is where you can find all of Nick's film work. Send us mailbag questions at What Are You Watching podcast at Gmail dot com and we'll answer those on the show. Or find us on Twitter at WFYI W Underscore Podcast next time we're going to break down our top five films of 2021. Why only five? Why indeed. Stay tuned.