175: The Way Back (2020)

Alex and Nick discuss alcoholism, depression, losing parents, Ben Affleck’s best work, and Gavin O’Connor’s “The Way Back”. This episode is as real as What Are You Watching gets.

Watch Alex and Nick's film, "I Am Alive," for free online.

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Hey, everyone. Welcome to. What are you watching? I'm Alex, we're throwing. I'm joined by my best man, Nick, though. So how are you doing there, Nick? I appreciate you calling me. Thank you, thank you. A little different tone today. We're excited. I'm a little nervous, but we're here today to talk about a movie that we've, you know, brushed on in five and a half years of the pod, and we're going to talk about it for a few reasons. Today we're going to break down Gavin O'Connor's The Way Back, released in 2020, released in theaters right before lockdown, Covid lockdown happened. That's one of the reasons we're going to talk about it today. I think this movie was probably the most screwed over movie from Covid. I think it because of like I saw this on, I believe the Saturday came out and I don't want to exaggerate. It was either like that Monday or the next one was lockdown. And this was either the last or second to last movie I saw in the theater. And as such, it kind of blipped out of my mind because, you know, like lockdown happens and your what is Covid blah blah blah. So I want to talk about it, about that. But how do you feel to be here talking about the way back? I mean, not to be confused with, I know the way, way back. Well, there's also no way back. No Way back by Peter Weir in 2010. And then the way, way back with Steve Carell's amusement park things kind of. Yes. We are talking about Gavin Oconnors starring Ben Affleck, Ben Affleck, Ben. And a great performance. All joking aside, really generally I have. Yeah, I the first time you and I ever talked about this movie because they released it on Hulu by like summer fall in 2020. And then you texted me and you're like, I just watched the way back. What did you think of those final 30 minutes? And I went, ooh, I'm having a little trouble remembering those because lockdown happened this in that. So I need to go back and rewatch it. And then when I did, I was hit very, very hard. And this happened to me with warrior two. I think when I saw warrior, there was a little subconscious rejection because of how much it hit me personally and reminded me of my brother. And that's still I mean, that movie made my top 25 of the century so far. Mostly it's I love that movie. A lot of people do, but mostly for those personal reasons. And I'm like, God, this is very close to the relationship I had with my brother and this movie things. It's some personal stuff too, which we'll get to, but I remember replying that to you and being like, I don't really remember that. Then when I rewatched the movie, I was like, oh my God, those last 30 minutes. Holy shit. So spoilers here. Like, oh yeah, you know this movie, at least as of this recording, it's on Netflix, so it should not be that hard to find. But I don't know how many people have seen it and we're going to go all in, so spoilers. But yeah, like one of the reasons I love this movie is that it it subverts all expectations in that way. Yeah. And it even the second time I've watched it and, remembering that this happens, I remember I was just thinking just from like, a filmmaking perspective. All right. How do I like, what would you do differently? And I think the traditional thing would be to actually do all of this sin, which with the last 30 minutes brings you into the middle. Yeah. Yes, yes. That is a much more natural as to what we know storytelling structure to be the cliche sports story. Yeah, that's what you're doing. The heart falls in the middle. Yeah, exactly. And then you come and then the temptation. But then this does something very different, where we get that end climax an hour and ten minutes in an hour and ten minutes, then, yeah, it's only an hour and 15 minute movie, like, like 45, 50. In the end, not a really long one. And when you're watching it like I. So I have a relationship with this movie. I watch it all the time. I think I've watched it five times this year already. I know, and we're going to get to kind of why, but it has a I feel extremely seen by the movie with all of its, you know, the, the rawness and the reality and the hardness of it. I really identify with it. But yeah, that's a huge selling point. It's like, what kind of movie is this? How do you describe it? Because it it kind of sets itself up. It's like a sports movie. You know, we're following the basketball narrative and, you know, almost every sports movie ever made ends with the big game to the team. So the last basketball game we see in this is are they going to make the playoffs. And you're like, okay. And then you know, again spoilers they win that game. And I mean they do like the slow fade out the music when Ben Affleck's happy his character is sober. It's like hey this is good. And then, you know, we're back and it's kind of shitty. Upstairs apartment or whatever you call that thing. And the phone rings and we just kick it into gear and it is. You're like, where are we going? Here? And then it is a complete just, you know, roller coaster downhill and in the worst way for him. And I can also understand if a lot of people, if you've never seen this or if you have seen it and you actually don't really like this movie, absolutely love it. Because there is a natural feeling that we, as audiences have had just built into what storytelling structure is, is that once and actually this was actually something. And you can tell me what you think about this. I know a lot of people, funny enough, that don't actually care for Oppenheimer because you get the big payoff with the bomb, because the whole movie is building up to who is going to be the first person to actually execute this test. Fire. Yeah. And it works. Yep. And once you get that, what's left? What's left for an hour, a movie, you're like, what the fuck are we going to do in this movie for another hour? And of course, I think for you and I will get curious as to like that. Like, oh yeah, because there is even an Oppenheimer like that very next scene I remember even still like seeing as many times as I have, I'm sure, like all right, we're we're starting from square one right now. We're kind of really going. And then the movie that's. Yeah, that movie kind of like, has a natural ending when he. I don't know, maybe he gives that like speech to the people in, you know, that little auditorium and he like, flips out and sees the girl with their skin flapping and all that. Like it. Maybe it ends there with, like, his, you know, he's going to be haunted with this for the rest of his life, but then, like, fade again, fade out. I think we even fade to black and then fade up. And it's a time magazine cover. And then he goes and meets with Truman and we're like, where are we going? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love the kind of zagging on those expectations, but I get that a lot of people don't. I totally get that because it is an energy. It's not an energy suck. And now it's sort of like we're going for round two here, basically. And in terms of storytelling, I know some people don't like that. So it's really a matter of are you willing because this is clearly in both examples of Oppenheimer and this movie. This is not a filmmaker in both cases who doesn't know what they're doing. Right? This is not someone that's or they're doing it for funsies. There is a direct, intentional reason as to why we're doing this right here, right now. And it's okay if you don't vibe with it. It's okay if I kind of took you out with this because it mattered more to the filmmaker to do it this way than to do it the traditional way. Yeah. And again, if you don't like it, but maybe just sort of like open up that idea, it's like, okay, I can see what these two guys are saying. I didn't really care for that movie because I thought it ended. You know, the ending was already there. And then we go for this like, bummer, 30 minutes and. Yeah. And, but that's the point. I think it's a great, conversation point. Like to talk about, because when it does that it is telling you and he's get when you watch movie the way back as many times as I have, you realize, like he's tricking you from the beginning, like he's not trying to convince you that it is a full on sports movie, but that is in the background. But then when the the basketball ends there, he's like, no, this is an addiction movie. Yeah, this is a movie that in that is this is a movie about grief. This is a movie about some sort of redemption. But he is not going to it ain't going to end with him winning the big game like so many movies do. And then you, you know, you leave the theater like happy, like, you know, Jack, he's going to be okay. He's not going to drink again. And that is not the reality in real life. Often it's not like so. So that's that really only talking about like the sports movie aspect of it. When you look at it as an addiction movie, it is also rather atypical because he starts, we meet him in a very bad place, and he's not doing well. He has one of the wow, just one of the most epic, subtle, easily executed binge scenes of all time. Oh, one beer in The Freeman. It's, you know, you take one beer from the like when it starts with him just opening. Looks like there's 24 beers in refrigerator. And he has that system of like, it's never explained, but he, you know, takes one from the fridge, moves it to the freezer. He already has one waiting in the freezer, and he takes that out and he's rehearsing to like, if he wants to take the job as the basketball coach. And he just keeps going and going and you're like, when does this end? And ends? When the beers out of the refrigerator. And then we cut to the next morning and he's drinking a beer in the fucking shower and you're like, oh, okay. Wow. And that's not even the first time. We mean the first time. Oh yeah. He is drinking a beer in the shower, like going to work. And then, I mean, he's at work and as soon as he's done, he's got the cooler beer in his car. And this is this dude is a professional drinker. He's got a job working construction, but he lives for for the beer. For the booze. Well, I mean, for all of it, because even in the very first scene where we see him in the construction, he's eating, he's on a break. He's got his thermos. Yep. Which we know is probably vodka filled. I mean, there's there's he he fills that thermos with vodka only I think three times we see it in the last night in the office. And and so there's. Now that you've seen the movie, there's no way to assume that in that thermos in the beginning of this is coffee. And that's another thing I love about it. It doesn't start with like, showing us him starting his day like that. Yeah, that comes later. And then it's just what you're saying when you rewatch the movie, you're like, oh, he's already hitting the thermos and like shot one. And now we know what that is. Yeah, absolutely. He's got this great way of, you know, sneaking it, but I don't even think he's like, aware of what he's doing. It's just so natural. Like you're done, you've knocked off work, you reach into the back in the cooler, you crack the beer, you put it into, like the, you know, to go cup so it looks inconspicuous. And then you drive to the bar to your watering hole. Yeah. Your buddy has to carry you home. I mean, whatever it is, and it's just rinse, repeat day after day with no driver motivation. And we have no idea why he is like this. And this is another reason that I love this movie, because a lot of addiction movies are like, they give you that one reason, and we're going to find out a big reason why he's troubled. But it did not start there. His troubles did not start there. And I, I really like that. I'm not going to mention his name. But a very, very dear friend of mine who is sober and has been for eight years, I watched in real time battle addiction. And yes, I believe, I think I can confidently say, I mean, I've literally saved this man's life for different occasions, literally saved his life. And now that he's sober, he's one of the wisest people I know. He he's devoted his life to, helping others, being a part of the AA program and things like that. And, he will often tell me stories of his addiction past, and he talks about it in a very, very healthy way. There's, there's because he says this thing that I think is so beautiful, he, he because he can't change the past. And that is a point that is beautifully emulated in this movie. And that's why I'm bringing it up, because this movie reminds me a lot of that. He's like, it's the story I get to tell now. So when he looks back at a lot of these, moments that are truly, rough. Yeah. And, he will talk about them openly and freely to anyone who wants to listen to it, because anyone who might be going through that, there's something to relate to. Yeah. But this process that Ben Affleck goes through of the beer after beer is almost, almost identical to my friends process. Yeah. Where it was just a loop exactly in this loop until you pass out. And he didn't even know, like there was no plan. And then he would my friend would often tell me that if it ran out and there just wasn't another one because he would drink until. Yeah, until blackout. So if he was still able but there was no more booze left, he'd walk to the liquor store and then re up and then go back and continue this process. So I thought based on this experience that I know with my friends and I'm sure so many others, the way that this movie shows this loop, I think is one of the most honest. And this isn't how all alcohol addiction goes either. No, not at all. Not so many different versions of how people struggle with this particular addiction and just addiction in general. It takes all types of shapes and forms and things like that. But seeing this hit close to me for my friend and I'm like, this is. And just even the filmmaking process of it. Yeah. How he's also going over the phone call. Yeah. Rehearsing or repetition. Repetition. Yeah. And he never actually makes it right. And my favorite part of it is that he eventually passes out without making the phone call. Yeah. Wakes up in the morning and then is like, all right, I'll fuck it. I'll do it. Yeah. So you've had what? You really don't even see that we just cut. Yeah. Him like being like accepting. So. Yeah. So what I've kind of like gathered from that is like, how many in the life of addiction nights are wasted that are like this? Yeah. Where the very next day you end up making a positive decision, even if alcohol is still very much there, the addiction is still strong. But you've wrestled for one whole entire night with one decision. Don't make it. Let the the substance take take over. And then the next morning you wake up and you actually make that right decision. But ultimately a whole entire night of stress anguish. And then the substance itself takes over and it's sort of like you look back and you're like, man, that was just a lot of wasted energy for a decision that I showed up today here for and just yeah it did anyway. And now apply that to a life. Yes yes yes yes. Hell yeah. This repetition you know this repetitious thing of that's really. Yeah. Like addiction has been close to both of us and that. Yeah. Yeah okay. Okay. Time. Yeah. It's time. Yeah. All right everyone. Yeah. You know, we haven't really described what the movie's about. You know, this is about, like, what I consider to be a barely functioning alcoholic, like, functioning in that he does have a job. He's able to go to Thanksgiving, you know, with his family, but it's not necessarily going well. He takes the job as a coach, this and that. The reason why. And, you know, when I watch this movie, it's like warrior reminds me of my brother. This movie, in a very odd way, reminds me of my mom because, you know, I've talked about my mom a lot on this podcast, and she was my best friend. This was like the coolest, no nonsense woman. She would tell you exactly how she felt. She had the biggest heart. She loved like everyone. Hard worker, the biggest supporter of my film. Oh man. And my, you know, I don't, talk about this. Really. Ever. My mother was a full blown chronic alcoholic who, you know, it's a it's a tough question. She died in August 2017. And, you know, when people ask Stone just two days after her 61st birthday, she was she was 61. People ask, you know, how'd your mom die? I don't say that because it can open this whole thing. So I'll just say cancer, which was, you know, an official diagnosis. But my I identified my mom as like a heavy drinker when I was a little younger, but nothing, like bad. Nothing. She was not a stumble or fall over. She never woman never got angry. It was not she was not a rage person at all. She was just, you know, sit on her couch, go to the fridge. Tall glass of white wine. Back to the couch. Fridge for white wine. Back to the couch. And it. This was not something I noticed when I lived in Virginia and lived near her again. Noticed, like, you know, some heavy drinking. We had fun on holidays with, you know, booze and stuff, but nothing, potentially fatal. And then my brother in 2015 had his mental health breakdown, and that seemed like when I go back over it in my head, that was maybe the best thing to happen to her alcoholism, because it gave her an excuse to start poundin more. And by this time I'm in L.A., I'm not able to like, witness stuff. So for about two years, the only time I really see her are like celebratory events. I go back for a wedding, or she comes and visits me here, which is a vacation for her. I go back on holidays. These are all typical days typically associated with. It's just commonly accepted you can drink more alcohol. That's what happened. So you know, like people aren't I don't I don't really notice an addiction is something that I thought I had such like a keen eye for. And then when my brother died by suicide in August 2016, that gave her permission to there was you can't, like, talk to me about my drinking like my son died, you know, just give me some space, give me some some time. And I moved back in January 2017. And when I moved back, I noticed within a week because I moved back, living with her, living in my mother's windowless basement as a, you know, 31 year old guy. It was it was a rough time. And after like two weeks, I realized I did the math accountant bottles. She drank three and a half bottles of white wine a day. After she died. And after I put that together, I tried to do that as a grotesque sort of experiment. I got, like, one and a half bottles and was, you know, I'm not a big drinker and was, like, falling over, like, drunk. And that, I mean, she could walk like, she could just do stuff. And when you do that to yourself, night after night after night, day after day, I mean, she got to the point where, you know, you're not sleeping well at all. And Zola excuses all my legs, my back. If only that could get better. And it's like, no, it's the drinking. Like, that's why you're not sleeping. This, that. And I mean, I have, like, I don't want to sound selfish, but I would not wish what I witnessed in my mom in the last two weeks of her life on anyone on anyone. It was fucking horrible. It is when you watch someone die from gross alcohol consumption. Consumption? I mean, she drained her organs. Or rather, she drowned her organs. She was so bloated and she literally drank so much that her kidneys, liver and bladder stopped working in one fell swoop. And then she goes in for a doctor's appointment. That was a routine one, and I find out she has two weeks to live, and she made it eight more days. And I'm telling you, like, all this happened, it seems like in sped up motion. And then you're like, oh, she's going to fucking die. Like she. Okay. And then those final eight days, like bringing her back home for hospice, I will I can't even describe what I went through then because it's not it's not any sort of fun. And, you know, this is a movie podcast, but it was, I'll say a hospice nurse came for two hours a day and the woman was bedridden. So you know who cleans her when she's incontinent? There's no one around. It's me. It's a weird, really weird, awful way to, you know, see your mom in her final days, and it was as it was just terrible. It was absolutely fucking terrible. And this woman, if anyone knew her, like, she was so sweet. Ali got to know her for a year before she died. Like, you know, you've met some of my friends who grew up with her and just everyone loved her. And it it was such it was so crippling to my life when she died. And then she died that way. And it was just, you know, my mom and I never argued. And for 31, 32 years and we had some fucking blowouts and, you know, those last couple months because it was the only time I called her out on her drinking, and it did not go well at all. And that's not how I choose to remember her. But that's another reason why I want to do this, because, I mean, I'm really I was really nervous to do this and just, like, openly talk about this stuff, but in talking with my dad and talking with Ali, it's like, and I don't hopefully listeners know that we're not coming at this from like a any sort of arrogant way at all. But like, you're here and I'm here and we're fucking alive and we've witnessed this stuff, so let's talk about it. I'm not giving anyone who's listening to this any action. If you have someone who's boozing really hard in your life, you need to interfere right now. No, that's not what I'm saying at all. Just saying. Maybe, you know, keep your eyes open a little bit. Maybe try to check in with people from time to time, like, how are you really doing? And, you know, I, I was no stranger to addiction. I've had friends. My brother was an addict as well. Like, I, I've seen it, you know, growing up it's been it was around the family obviously, and still never thought that she was that bad or that far gone like fatal. I never entered my mind. And then boom, eight days later, it's just done. So when I watch stuff like this, I'm going, man, that really, it really reminds me of her because she made it to work. She went to work every day until she basically had to retire early, and she was so happy to retire. And then three weeks later she was dead. And it's just you know, it's a really, really horrible thing. And it's dark and it fucked me up for like a while for years after. And that's what, you know, that's why we made that's the subtext of I'm Alive. There's a lot of this and it's all there. Yeah, it's all and I'm alive. And if anyone went back and rewatch that movie that's, you know, there I tried to put like, hints to what she was going through without explicitly stating it. And now I think if I made that, I would just go all in, like because of movies like this, I think I would. I would just be explicit with it. But, you know, I was a little timid. But when we made that because, I mean, I, we started production on that like less than a year after she died. And I think also, you know, that was a healing process for you. Yeah, absolutely. Of course, you could kind of look back and be like, all right, well, if I was really going to go in and and use art to, to, express more of this, you know, that's all there. But I mean, you needed to make I am alive for so many reasons for you. Yeah. Which is what you ended up getting. So for anyone who ever seen that you can, one of the things that I would always tell people is they'd be like, so what's this I am alive thing you're. And I go, well, it's my best friend and it's his life. Yeah. Like, yeah, two years of my life. So yeah, I mean, like, everything that you're going to see in this is something that he has went through and he's put this all out there in an artistic way to heal. And then also to do what you do as artists is to put this out there in ways for other people to do. What a movie like The Way Back is done, right? Like there's there's no solving any of this. Exactly. Like, yes, that's not what this podcast is. People trust me. There's not. We're just we're talking well in movies. Can't even solve it. But but what they do is they they let us know that they see the world and experiences that we've seen to let us know that we're not alone. That's why it's like it's not an easy movie to watch, but there's things in it that. Clue us into. This is a part of life. Yeah, both fortunately and unfortunately and, And we resonate and they can help. They can help heal. Yeah. And another why I like, rewatch this a lot and I'm so drawn to it. I do see, you know, my mom had, like, the same job for 35 years working for local government. She was not a construction worker. But I see a lot of the similarities of, you know, maintaining maintaining the family facade, but also what Ben Affleck as Jack in this movie is so good at doing is not talking about himself. Oh, yeah. And that that is like a superpower of an alcoholic, like one who's trying to be functioning, as I've learned, because my mom, who I mean, you could tell your you could tell my mom, like the worst thing that is happened to you. And she would be so empathetic. She would listen. She would not try to solve anything. She, you know, she was like that. And after she died, I learned, like, wow, I really didn't know much about her before she was a mom. Like, I know the bullet points. I know you know where she went to school, where she was born. This not and like, who she was friends with, but the whatever. Like the nastiness that was back there. I mean, she very rarely talked about her past and never anything that was like bad back there. And, you know, her two older sisters are still alive. My aunts, who I love dearly and they, do not have relationships with alcohol because of this. And it was I mean, yeah, it was obviously devastating for everyone, but it's I mean, this is this is truly one of the best portrayals of alcohol, of alcoholism ever in a movie, because most of the other ones I can think of, you know, you, you immediately go to leaving Las Vegas, Nicolas Cage. Yeah, yeah, that dude has a mission to literally kill himself by drinking. There is no redemption in that. So that's like someone in one vibe. I don't think my mom had that mission. I just don't think she was in control of what she was doing at all. But like, even when Ben Affleck early, he goes to the liquor store and it's Thanksgiving and he's got he's buying so much liquor and I'm like you that alcoholics can do that on that holiday. Like, no one's going to question it. Yeah, I'm going to the family, you know, stocking up on more booze. He doesn't bring any of those booze in that house. He's taking those home to his house. It's just this excuse. My mom had this system that I figured out from a lot of sleuthing and checking receipts, where she would go to, like, a different, you know, there's 4 or 5 grocery stores in the area and go to a different one every day to get the four bottles of wine because you buy, you know, on Monday, four bottles of wine. That's, you know, no, no big deal for bought bottles of Chardonnay. Maybe, you know, maybe you're just stocking up just to have them or you're having people over. And if you keep going to different grocery stores and you're not being tracked. And again, I don't even think she was aware of that. I think people get on this autopilot thing of fueling that addiction. And it it just becomes this yeah, this cycle. And I, I saw her do it. I saw her wake up at 1130 because she got almost no sleep, because she probably passed out at, you know, 3:30 a.m. and then by 1215, she's pouring her glass of Chardonnay. And, you know, if you're retired and you're like, hey, it's 1215. Like, I've been up since five. I did a bunch of chores. I did this not and this was not that. This was like wine before, you know, getting a shower. And it's just it's a terrible thing to watch. But I feel so seen by this movie, and I do not sit here with any angry thoughts toward my mom like nothing at all. It's just it's just really sad that that's that's the only thing you can put on it. And there was nothing anyone could have done about it. Because as you know, these people cannot you cannot change these people or you cannot pick a fight with them. You cannot call out their drinking and, and like and that's going to boom, go. I mean there's no intervention in this movie. Like there's they avoid that too because those aren't those are not as successful all the time as people think in the moment. It's not like the person like right then goes to rehab and then they're sober for the rest of their life. And I love that they avoid that. We never got to have an intervention with my mom. We were kind of planning one, but it didn't get there and she was not ready to, you know, heal herself. She still, you know, the grieving process when you lose someone. Some people say there's five steps, seven steps, whatever it is. But, you know, going back to all that jazz all the sudden, but, you know, you get hit with denial first. That's but no, no, this couldn't have happened. It couldn't have happened. Move to anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance. My dad hit acceptance with my brother's death very quickly. And he said that I'm not going to let this define me like, this is a truly terrible thing. I'm telling you, folks. And I put this in. I'm alive. The woman was in denial about my brother's death for a year to where, like up until the end, she asked me to reach out to the Philadelphia Police Department to see if you like, if they actually had a police report. And I remember sitting down with her and going, what the fuck are you talking about, mom? Like he's he's dead. Like he's not. Well, I had a dream about him last night that he just walked into the house, and. And, I mean, she's just drunk all the time, you know? She's just drunk and that was really tough to. She never got out of the denial phase. Never got even close to acceptance. Just like Ben Affleck. He even says to his ex at one point, I never got over being angry. He's still so angry because, as we learned throughout the movie, he and his separated wife had a son who had cancer, and it sounds horrible. And he died and Affleck, you know, Jack is not gotten over that at all. But again, this is not what started his alcoholism. And it's just that new catalyst like, well, I had a son who went through, you know, 30 treatments of chemo and nothing worked. So like, what the fuck is life like? Who cares? It's not, let's just drink and like, you know, go on. So, yeah, you know, thanks for giving me the space to talk about that. I, I felt that it was appropriate. And again, I'm just a lot of people are affected by this. Not because they are users themselves, but they're like me or like you who are witnessing it from the outside and desperately want to do it to help in any way that we can. So this is again, I don't have it advice or anything, but if you to see someone I don't know, struggling a little, a little bit, just maybe try to have a conversation, that's all, and just see where they're at. And it's it can never be about like chastising even how the sister comes at him a little hard, you know, she's like Kathy Collins. Easy track. What? Kathy Collins. Yeah. You know, and then he hits the beer all aggressively. I really love that. But it's it's just this kind of terrible thing that affects so many people. And she was not a vodka guzzler. She was not tipping back whiskey. It was Chardonnay. That was it. And it you know, I feel like wine in particular is such like a socially okay alcoholic drink and like, hey, it's no big deal. We had two bottles of wine, or actually we had four because we each had two bottles. And, you know, it's just wine. Beer and it's just beer. What's the big deal? And it's a different, you know, thing with liquor. And he always hides his liquor drinking. So beers, beer. Wine is wine. And I'm telling you, folks, it can be fatal if you do enough of it. And, I, I remember when you called me at one point, this was during when you were sort of kind of putting things together in that confusing time. And, you asked me, you're like, I got a question for you. Is this a lot to drink in? Like, because you you it this is like what you spoke about it, but, when you found a certain amount of bottles. Yeah. And the way I figured this out, folks, you know that those huge, like, recycling containers you like, take it out into the curb once a week. So that was full all the time. And I'm like, looking at neighbors ones and I'm going, these these are like a quarter full. And it was like packed to the brain. So one day when she was at work I you know, as moving back, it was I was doing chores. So I would have taken it down. I took my time and took out every single bottle and just put it in the garage. I was the only one home and then counted them and did the math. And then I did that three weeks in a row, and the figure I got two is three and a half bottles of wine at night, and I'm going, I can't even calculate this. Like, I didn't even know this was possible, that I remember relating to that. I was in a relationship once where, I, I was over at, her sister's house. And her sister just asked me. She's like, Nick, would you please mind, like, taking out or recycling? And I was like, sure, I'll do it. So I go and I'm gathering everything, and it's exact same thing. Yeah. And I had no idea. And so I was like, this is a lot. And this is all there is. Like, there's no other pieces of recycling, right? These are just straight bottles. Yeah. And, and I remember I was asking like, I think I made like some like com and I was like, man, you really don't get to your recycling a lot. And she's like, no. So we do a once a week or something like that. And then I was like, and I remember I brought that up, and it did not go over well. But to your point of saying, like when you're seeing things like this, to have an open mind and a little bit of, like, I think a lot of times addiction is met from the outside. I with a lot of judgments. Absolutely, absolutely. And a lot of, because you, you you don't want that for somebody if you're on the outside of it. And of course, you don't want that for somebody, but at this point, it doesn't matter what you want. Yeah. Because there's nothing you can actually really do. It's similar in ways to, and to suicide in that way of being helpless. Yeah. But what you can do is be observant, be sensitive, be there if you'd like, like. And that ultimately can help. And it will come down to the person to make that change. If like you were saying before, like we were saying like we're not telling you to go and like do all this, this is a movie podcast. So we're just speaking from our experiences with this. But that has been the one thing that I've found is to if you're on that outside, I just be present with that person without judgment and be as helpful as possible and and try to sort of like, help guide without trying to control it. And that's where I was trying to get with her in there. I mean, you know, there are like horrific episodes that I'm not going to go into specifically. But I remember once, like, her and I were in this was July, so just a few weeks before she died and we were in Atlantic City and it was, it's only like 2 p.m. and she had really just a bad episode and was dressed and basically put herself in like a bathroom, a casino bathroom, and wouldn't leave because I suppose she was incontinent. I think that's what was happening. She was just, you know, really, really sick. And she had started drinking so early. And I remember texting and going, like, I don't know how this ends, man. This is this is like really bad. So I remember the next morning was one of the that was one of the first times when I said, I'm, I've identified something that's going on and there's no way you can lie to me about it like I do carry you out of that casino last night. And she was big. She was always a small, petite woman, and she was big toward the end because of the bloating. So, like, it wasn't easy. Like cops had to help me. It was. It was. It was terrible. Like it just was not easy. And so when I brought it up, I went, I'm just not I am not going to drink around you anymore. I'm not going to partake in that. I'm not telling you what to do, but I can't be involved in this at all. And yeah, that didn't go very well either. But it it's just such a tricky thing. It's like, yeah, be there as a support but try not to enable this behavior. But it, it didn't. Again it is different for everyone because you know there were a lot of other I'm not even I'm given like the bullet points of my mom's story right here and what she went through and what I went through, there's so much more to it. But, you know, there's so much this nuance and there's this scratchy, messy stuff. And I really see all of that here. So. Well, I see that in this movie about how there's this, this running conflict with him, but then he can't help it. My, my favorite shot in the movie is when and this is in that, you know, last 30 minutes. Like what. You know, they they win the big game and then fade out. And you know, the phone rings and they basically find out that one of their, son's friends who was in remission with the cancer and was, like, beating it, and they're still trying to be in his life now. He has, you know, he has cancer again, and he's not going to make it. And that is the catalyst to send Affleck, who's cleaned himself up at this point for the sake of the team and that, and he just goes on this complete downfall. But we immediately cut to that beautiful music. But we're like, we're on that shot of him driving the car, and he just drives right into Harold's place. We get like off the car, and then we follow him and his bartender before he even sits down, has it poured, and then he slugs that back. And this is his first one in a while, and I'm like, yeah, that's what it is. It's not. Also, addiction movies have this thing where like, no, I am an alcoholic because I lost my son. And not that I believe me, I'm obviously an alcoholic when she lost her son. Choose one long before. So is Jack in this movie and it. Yeah, it just it touches on all that and I do want to talk about like the movie we get out of the personal stuff a little bit. But that is why, you know, we, I like to go personal sometimes on the pod because I just want people to know, like, if you're going through this or if you've witnessed this happen in your life with someone you love, believe me that I see you. I know that it is not easy. And I it's, you know, there's just no answer to it. The person has to decide step one, that they are powerless over this. They have to make that decision. They have to make the decision to get clean. Because if you're trying to force someone to do it, they're going to use that as you know, a rejection typically. And yeah, so that's my life. Yeah, it's the way back. But I did have to find the way back with myself by making that movie. And you know, it wasn't it wasn't always easy. Like I had to when my mom died, I it got, it got so bad with me and my depression and stuff. And I finally went in and got like an official diagnosis from a therapist and a doctor that I have a major depressive disorder. And I'm going, oh, okay. I'm like 35 and have never actually gotten diagnosed. And now I'm on two medications for it. And like, I used to be so embarrassed when I used to never talk about this stuff, like, oh yeah, you know, XYZ. And now I talk about it because, in my life, me just talking about it and it having such a profound impact on me, I, I've never told anyone, hey, maybe you should try it, but like, 3 or 4 other people in my life are now went and like, worked on themselves in that way and like started going to therapy or not, just because I was doing it. And I'm like, you know, I need some help. I can't take this all on the chin. And that I tried to use her death as some sort of like, don't let this, don't let this drown, don't become Jack, you know? Oh, my mom died. And my brother. It's kind of an easy excuse to like I, you know, go off the rails a little bit and be like, oh, yeah, you know, his he he watched, like, his mom die. Like he's had it really rough. So, you know, he's in kind of rough shape. But I didn't want to be that. Just like my dad didn't want to be. He didn't want to be my mom. He didn't want that death. Because for the last year of my mom's life, she was the woman whose oldest son died by suicide. That's, you know, who she was and how she was known. So just, you know, pay attention to the people next you, to who you love. And just try to be there in a supportive way and find your own way to be supportive. I do not think that's necessarily like getting bombed with them if they are a drinker, like every night. That's just my opinion. Like maybe try to set up some boundary for that. But I really appreciate simple, well-told small movies like The Way Back that really get this. And I mean, you watch this. You we all a lot of us know Ben Affleck's personal struggles. Like there's no way that, you know, it just comes through like, I don't know much about the writer, Brad. Oglesby, I think, is his name. But if he has some addiction experience, I wouldn't be surprised at all. I mean, Nick Nolte is such a raging alcoholic and warrior. So if Gavin O'Connor has some experiences, whether you know it with him or like family, that would not surprise me at all. These are such authentic portrayals of people who, you know, can't can't beat it. I can't beat it, you know, and I, I really love that. And that's that is the main reason why I really wanted to talk about this. And I told you I was like, I'm ready to talk about the way back, and I think I'm going to use it as just to talk about my mom a little bit and be really honest with people and men. I mean, and it's I think it's beautiful that we can do that. I think it's, it's important ultimately like to be able to talk about these types of things and just we live in a time now where, you know, I, you know, I like to think that we're living in a time where, normalizing this is becoming the norm. Yeah. Yeah. And, and it doesn't matter as long as there is a point. And as long as there's, real heartfelt intentionality behind it, it matters. Yeah. And this is why we create. And this is why, you know, we we use these things to help and to try to, and to express that. And so a lot of that is talking it out and letting people know it's okay to talk about it. Yeah. And, and just as the same as it's okay for Gavin O'Connor to go there. Yeah. In making a movie and and that's really what this is all. Yeah. And I mean, we don't have to even go through the movie in order. We can just talk about scenes as we want to talk about them, but like it again toward the end, like he's he is crashed out. He is, you know, he's wrecked his truck. He has accidentally gone into someone's house and you know Pete and well, that's no little fight. Yeah, yeah. Now he's in the hospital. And then I love Michael Watkins, who I only know is doing comedy in like, TV and stuff. But as the sister. Oh, yeah, we've seen them have some kind of tense conversations. And she just says, you're going to kill yourself. You keep going. Like, that's why I'm going to get you some help. And it's just boom, that's it. And then we oh, man, we like fade up to this therapy session. That is it makes me emotional because it's, you see so many therapy movies and you know, usually they have these radical concepts like the therapy and good will hunting. He needs to like, grab that dude by the throat to get through to him. But you would never do that. Like in a therapy session, if you're grabbing someone at the throat, like started out 60s in your first session, you've kind of violated all the terms. Like, I get it, it's still like a good, you know, ordinary people as like screaming around the office in this net. Like, those are very big shows of it. This is one shot slow push in here. The therapist voice, whoever that, oh my God, whoever she is, she has just the perfect, most empathetic voice. And you see him that still kind of defiance. And she's like, you know, in the family session, we talked about how you know, this and that, your son. And then they also said, you never talk about your son. And he's like, well, why would I want to do that? Why would people want to hear? Do they want to hear about the, you know, 30 rounds of treatment? And and that's, you know, we do that. I did that like we held on to this, like people want to hear about my brother who's crazy and like, tortured in my family growing up or like my alcoholic mom. I'm like, people don't want to hear about that. And she just nails the hair. She listens and she's like, Jack, we cannot change the past because you can't. Not like everyone listening. This has had something happen to them or happen to someone they love. And it sucks and there's nothing you can do about it. It is all how you react going forward. And then she's like, what would Michael want of you? Like, do you think he'd want you being this boozer who's like going into people's house? It's like, no, he wouldn't. And you see Affleck like, break in like understand and get it. And I love that we end shortly after that. It's like his way back is starting at the end. We're starting with like a beginning. Will he ever drink again I don't know, will he get back together with his ex? And you know, he has that great confession of I. I failed our son because I let his mom. I didn't take care of his mom after he died. Will they get back together? Like, I don't know, but I feel confident that there's a way back here. There's been a realization, and I just love how therapy's encapsulated in like a 72nd sequence in this. And it is I will I will rewind that thing like over and over and just it makes me cry every time. It's it's beautiful. I love that scene. Oh my God. It's it really is. And it's. Yeah, it's, it's it's exactly the point you're making where it's like there's no, there's this movie is not solving anything, but it's with, it's and even just the story. But there's a possibility. There's a hope. There's a way literally the way back. Yeah. But, we can't control whatever the future's going to hold either. But we have to kind of. We have to kind of believe in it. Yeah, have to like it. There's just no other way. Like, life is hard. In it. And we all have to find our way through it. And, and the one thing that ultimately is, is being the best version of yourself that you can be for, for everyone around you. And that's hard. It's really hard to do that. And, and everyone it takes something a little bit different. And so this movie is not positing that this is going to be okay, but this is what's up now. Yeah. And now that you've kind of had these realizations that matters. Yeah. It's realizations where once you do realize something so profound like that, like what Ben Affleck's character realizes, once you get there, there is a bit of like, all right, it's a checkpoint. Like, yes, like, I know what it's like to go back to that. So now that I know this, it does, in its way, kind of make the next step a little bit easier. It doesn't make the process easy, but there's an acknowledgment. But there's an acknowledgment here where it's sort of like, well, I have to go here because otherwise it's that and that doesn't work. It doesn't work and it never will. So trust. Yeah. And I think that's what I got from like that in secret. I mean, it's something you could write that end off as being cliche because it's like, you know, he's in like the Malibu, right? He. Yes, yes, yes. He's in an extremely nice. Yeah. Facility which not every your average Joe. Yes. Cannot afford. Yes. Yeah. But I mean it's it's the idea of like one step at a time and that it's, I think like, you know, like the sunset or whatever that image was, is that it's like life really is. I mean, it's going to be so cheesy to say, but it's so true. But life really is beautiful and, and you just have to choose it. Yeah. If you allow it, if you're numbing yourself with booze all the time, all day, beginning in the shower, because you're. That's the hair of the dog. Beer from the night before and then the vodka therm. It's like, yeah, you know what that is? So do you want to try kind of another way? And there's. Yeah. Yeah, it just taps into that so beautifully. But I do I want to, you know, talk about the movie proper and use some of the scenes to explain why they're personal to me and why we like them and just how it's good, like filmmaking. So again, thank you everyone. We're going to let that, we're gonna let that serious stuff go now, not really. But I mean, when you watch the movie, like four minutes in, we've come to understand this guy's a veteran drinker. By seeing the thermos, by seeing the beers in the car, by saying, I love running into the old friend at the liquor store to the guys like some men. Give me a couple scratch off that. He becomes the rest later on to bullshit call. So, he's great, but, yeah, well, this is a point is like, I forget where this movie takes place, but it's a small town. It seems like almost like a Long Beach type thing. Maybe because we only get the shot of downtown L.A. toward the end when they're, like, picking them up from therapy or something. I don't know, it seems like I honestly, when we start, I get five Easy Pieces vibes like, oh, yeah, you know, work in the obstruction. And yeah, also, okay, let me talk about this because this is something that I think is tremendous. I wrote this down like the very first thing is that Ben Affleck looks like this kind of guy. He absolutely he put on a lot of weight for like to. Yeah, it's it's it's the body type. It's the costuming, those flannels, those plaids. Blue collar. Because the big beard, smoking and the way that he walks. Yeah. Oh yeah. Like just and and I'm sure, you know, you made reference to it earlier where, you know, Ben Affleck's had his personal demons and how he might have incorporated some of these into this performance. Or maybe he didn't, I don't know, I love to hear his process on this, but, just just the absolute believability. It's the most believable I've ever seen him. Yeah. And this is, I mean, 2020, he's still one of the most famous A-listers by, like, sight alone in the world. And the second we see him, we're like, no, this is Jack, it's Jack. We can totally believe this guy. I immediately think of, like, so many people I know from back home in Buffalo that would live life like this. I don't know what their level is if they were, you know, alcoholics or whatnot, but Buffalo is a very blue collar, hard drinking city and, you know, you know, like the routine is you do your blue collar job, you knock off a deer hunter shit. Yeah. And then you go and you start drinking it. Yeah. This is the way these guys carry himself. This is the way they talk to each other. This is like when he sees his friend with the scratch offs. Yep. All this and that. And, so yeah, one credit I was wanting to give, like, it's just an it's an amazing casting choice. And to also see in the end credits, usually with a movie like this, when you have a star like Ben Affleck saying like, and because he's so heavily involved with directing and producing, he's not on any of this. No, he is just the act, just the actor. Yeah. And I found that to be interesting too. So I would really love to know, like the process of how this movie got made, casting, landing on this, why it was, something that Ben Affleck chose to do and didn't have that, like. Yeah, most of the time, you see a lot of these actors who do have, like, personal projects. They're like, I'm attaching my name to this because I want to be involved where, I mean, when you are just an actor and you are not on any kind of like producing credit, your job is to show up and do that. I think he just wanted to focus on that. I think, you know, if you see a role like this and you're reading this script and I believe he cleaned himself up before this and, you know, but it leading like right up to this movie, he was still, you know, we hear him being sober, and then he, like, he relapsed or something. And it you, you just have to read this and go, right. If I'm actually going to do this and I have to. Yeah, I shouldn't be worried about, like, how does the movie look? Or like, how are we going to market it or stuff like that? I just need to be focused on the performance. I have heard him say multiple times that he does think this is his best work. He does think he got screwed over by Covid and that's stuff. And I, I agree, I do think this is his best book by far. I think he's I just think it's one of the towering performances of an alcoholic and film it like that and belongs in the top tier. It's really it, I, I agree, there's one. Oh, man. It's like haunts me in my mind. It's, it's one of the scenes where they're showing, like, how drunk he gets at Harold's. Yeah. And, and I don't think we've been introduced to the notion that he gets walked home every year by by his neighbor. Yeah, but there's this one moment where he's taught he's, like, having a good time with all the people, and he stands up and he laughs and he laughs. You know what? I'm, But but they get it. But it's like he holds this eye contact with the guy. Yeah. And I'm like, oh my God, I have seen that exact, absolutely that exact. Like I don't even know what it is. It's not a delay. It's not it's it's it's just a complete fucked up state. Yeah. Like and he is so believable playing fucked up also it's I mean I don't know like the slurring like even in the, I mean the different variations he. Yeah there's different levels of drunk. Yeah. Absolutely. And you have to track that as the actor too there. Because I mean, even though, like, like the levels of alcoholism, of how much it might take you to actually get fucked up, there's a lot of talk in, like, acting classes about this where you have to sort of gauge, well, how many drinks if the, you know, have I already had, what is that level of drunk, right. And honoring where those levels are really at because sometimes it's not full tilt like he is in the bar. Right? But sometimes it is just like a little bit more relaxed. Maybe it's like it's easier to laugh. Like, I think there's a really great indication of it throughout, like, the basketball games where though it doesn't seem like he actually drinks during that period. It's, it's it's a cool thing to kind of go back and track because like the first game, it's, you know, it's a nice shot of like spinning in his office and we follow him out to the court, but he's like slim down Tic Tacs. Yeah. So that kind of leads me to believe, at least maybe for the first few games, he, you know, maybe was like hitting the thermos a little bit before he went out. But yeah, at some point he does make there's no grand speech. There's no big thing. But like, you know, he pulls up to Harold's place and then, hey, Jackie, I'll set you up. And then he just drives away because, you know, and yeah, the I've you know, my mother is not the only alcoholic I've ever known. I've known some like, professional boozers. And they they could tighten it. They can tighten it up for a little bit. I'm talking about like, Marty Cliff's being. Yeah. Dead sober on wind River and the. His last day of shooting is when he falls off the wagon again and it's like, you wonder, like, okay, is he sober? But he hasn't made this, like, declarative statement of yet. It's sobriety is the way to be. We do not see him clearing out his house. A very common thing in the addiction movie. You know, like pouring the best out the sink, pouring the vodka in the toilet, like all that stuff. We don't see that. It's just, you know, and then his family comes over for the game and someone says, you know, you want a drink? And no, I'm okay. Like, everyone's fine. But he still and then at that game is when he flips out and gets ejected, you know. So you know he's I presumably clean himself up and he's sober. It still doesn't have a hold of this anger. Well that's what he says. And that's and that's what's great about it is like the in that particular moment like that outburst. That's a drunken outburst. No, that's a basketball thing. That's a bad call outburst. And he let his anger just go. Yep. And and then that has consequences. And and that's and ultimately that's what all of this is, is, these consequences and then how does one react to them? Yeah. And, and there's one moment I know we're jumping around so much. No, it's okay. That's the nature of it. Because of how like, lived in all this is, his sister in the opening like scene with her where she even says, like, so and so sounded, you know, drinking. Yeah, I love I don't know how this choice came about. I don't know if it was written in the script or if it was sort of like thawed out, but when he, you know, because at first he starts going into the denial, you know, making a joke out of it. But then he gets into anger. Yeah. And then he ends, has that outburst, slaps the beer. You know, she is not affected by that. No, she's seen it. She's seen it. Yeah. And yeah. And she's not happy about it. But I feel like how many times in any movie would the acting choice be to be like, oh shit, exactly. Like, I can't believe I'm not going to go through this again. Like, how are you doing this thing? You know, which one of the 20 bedrooms am I supposed to be staying in? Second. One on the left. Yeah, exactly. Like it's sort of like, put yourself to bed. Are you happy with that? And the. Are you pleased with. Does that make you feel better that you did that? Like she's not affected by that at all. And I think that just speaks volumes as to what their relationship is. Yeah. And to how lived in this is and also it's character. Yeah. Like you know that's a strong person to just you know someone gets that violent and like breaks the glass right front and you're like okay second the basket and get some fucking sleep. Yeah. And she's trying to like bring up, you know, I just worry about you down there drinking all the time. Her friend sees him at the bar, but then she drops a name and just wearing to. And that. Yeah, the catalyst says everything. That's the first time we're hearing. And what you talk to her like, What? And the audience is like, who's? And then he's, you know, wasted in the bedroom making the call. I have the same number when we were married. Yeah, yeah. And a great he's trashed when he's doing that. So we're like, okay, there's some there's some stuff here that stuff's you know. Yeah. Going on. And then. All right, well this leads to another one of my favorite scenes of the movie is, when we do meet her for the first time. Yeah. Out in, like, that bar dock. Yeah. Yeah. Like thing. Right. And, you know, so it's gathers like that. She does not. She's. And she's made a point to not see him. Yeah. For as much as she can. Right. And so now she's agreed to. And you know, this is such a great acting scene for both of them because this is a prime example of that moment before that. Yes. Yeah. Where bring into it what. So to me it I'm kind of gathering that Ben Affleck is actually looking at this meeting as a potential reconciliation. Reconciliation. Maybe we can get back together. Yeah. And and so he's like, he's started this basketball thing, he's feeling good. She's going to meet him, and he is talking in a way of like this is an open possibility. And then she gathers like she tells him that she's been seeing somebody. Yeah. What's his name, shithead. Nick. Yes. Okay. And and he and he's I, he says I'm blindsided. You know. Fucking blindsided by this. Yeah. And she literally goes, how could you be blindsided? We've been separated for a year. Yeah. And I've been seeing this guy for how long? She say like well he's she says a few months and he's like six months. Nine months. Like he's trying to, you know, because if we've been separated for a year, like when did you start seeing this guys? So he just starts attacking those little those little details. Oh wow. I'm really sorry that, you know, I couldn't be there for you. And you know, not none of that. It's just attacking her right away. But the moment that she says it's been a year, he is shocked that it's been that long. I don't think he even knows because he's just boozing all the time. I think how we started this thing, that one wasted night. Think about all the ways tonight. Since it's since he split up from his wife and he talks like that in different scenes where he's like, well, is it been that long? I mean, I've either but. And then they're like, oh, actually it's been, it's been quite a bit. Has it been that long? Oh yeah. I haven't seen you since my father died. Yes. Time. Go. Yeah. Exactly. So there is this sort of like he is in just this loop, and it's impossible to track any sort of time or progress when you're just live in the same day. Yeah, all the time. And, and that realization that hits him and then he's battling that, but then he starts getting angry. Yeah. And, because he's not going to get what he wants. And also the one thing, the one possible comfort in his life is her. Yeah. And I think there's probably reality where he's just sort of like it's going to it's going to go back. It's like she'll come back and we just need to figure it out. It's he's he's unaware of his problem. Right. So but it's just going to happen. And then all of a sudden she's moving on. And like we talk about men. You can see it in her performance. She loves him because they have this shared grief. Now and there's always going to be that attachment. She is out of love with him. Yeah. She, whatever has and there's this little hints to it, but he says, like, when he's driving Brandon home that one time, you know, I tried to. I was trying to reject my father or things like that. That's what I've been doing. And, you know, my wife, you know, I got into drugs. It's not new. My wife helped me. Yeah, like, get rid of that. So there's, you know, they meet. Maybe she helps, like, you know, a woman comes into his life, cleans up a little bit. They have a kid, and then, one can imagine when this kid starts to either have troubles or dies, she turned into the jack that we know now. And, yeah, that that would be a way to, lose love for someone, perhaps because, yeah, she she lost her child, too. Yeah. So if he just immediately turns to booze and is not willing to work on this constructively, how do you maintain a marriage doing that? Yeah, and that's where her head is at. Absolutely. And once that light switch is off for a woman, there ain't no coming back. A woman gives ever. I'm telling you, man, women give everything to these relationships. And then when, when that switch just goes, well, that would be something that he would need to accept. So yeah, you need to accept it like I fucked it up. And if you mess something up sometime, there is a point of no return and you're not going to get that person back. And that is just life. And you have to, you know, move on in a constructive way. So that is that's one thing going off on the side that we learn later. You know the the conflict with the separated wife we have together throughout scenes that he's lost. They lost the kid you know however long ago. And they're still trying to stay, you know, in the lives of some of the, some of their son's friends. And he, he has no interest in doing that. What I loved about the scene in the last 30 minutes is, as we're getting that close of of Ben Affleck as he's crumbling in the hospital. Yeah. And because we're seeing the news, it is very much like I am alive in that way. Where, you know, you had to like the shot on me. But we're hearing everything because we're hearing the the crying wails. Yeah. Parents. But the look the father gives to him, like, basically the subtext is that he's holding his wife. Do you have anything for me now? Like. And then he walks away from it, walks out, and it makes it even more devastating to the fact that. Yeah, because when they go to the birthday party that dad is mostly like all positivity. Yeah, he's like, it's it's, you know, it's fine. And he maybe he's even diluting himself with like, no, my son's going to be okay. Like it's going to be good. But then you know with this stuff like it can it can come back presumably at any moment. So you can get the call of like, no, he's, he's in bad shape. And then. Yep. Yeah. It's Jack letting someone else down. He's his he's already let down his wife. He lets his wife down by leaving or his ex-wife right there in that scene. But now he's letting others down. He's already let the team down. Yeah. And, Well, no. Not yet. Right. He hasn't let the team down. No, it hasn't, because this is what starts his down. Yes. And I mean, yeah, he'll he will let them down soon. But you know. Yeah he's been, you know, hired to become the new head coach at his old high school. And he was this all star player. So he's trying now. And we get like the sports things like meaning the team and all those classic clown characters. You know they're great. Those boys are great. One thing that I really loved about this movie, and I know I don't take it like this because, you know, like all of a sudden this call comes out of nowhere. And I just kind of want to disagree. If there's anyone that might have an issue is where. Oh, that just feels so like plot derivative. I don't I didn't take it like that at all. I sometimes things in life just happen. Yeah, sometimes I get the call. Like I do believe that no matter where you're at in your life, what if you are going through addiction or if you're going through a rough time? Life does the universe once in a while. It doesn't happen all the time, but it does have. It's happening to me a couple times where the universe is like, here you go. It's it's it's a one time situation, whatever capacity it is. But here is, here is a, a gift from on high, whatever that is. I totally think that's exactly what this was. Yeah. It was just the way that the universe comes along. So I love that. I remember I even wrote down my notes, I go sometimes that's how life goes. You get a win once and it comes out of nowhere and it does take you to like, go into it. That's why he shows up at the basketball and he even tells him he's like, I don't think I'm really right for this. Yeah. Like I've never coached. I only played. Yeah. And yeah, it's like if those opportunities come a knocking are you going to be in the right state of mind, sober state of mind to accept him? And you know, we kind of started this part talking about that bench because that's what he goes to doing, practicing, calling father. Father can do I love that. So he's like father not going to happen. Yeah. He says practicing that boom. We just cut to and he's like he's there. Yeah. He's at the first practice and he's, you know, meeting the team. And this is what is so great is that without having any coaching experience, he hasn't played the game in forever. I love that he just you know, because right up until he talks to the kids, he's still not sure what he's doing. Right. He's like, you can see these hands are shoved in his pockets. He's like, I don't know who's that kid? All right, all right, all right, all right, column up. Call him up as soon as he steps foot into being coach mode, he's in. Yeah, yeah, I don't need any help. He says the one. It's. Yeah. It's an immediate confidence that I don't think he knew he had, but it's just like he steps right into it. And every time he's on that court, even when he's flipping out, you know, and he does have that out, that's, that's a that's a bad example of it. But for like the most part this is a positive thing for him. Yeah. Yeah. And it's it's natural. It's organic. It's beautiful to watch. And this is where you're seeing like Ben Affleck not just, you know, this character check. Because I think, you know, we you know, this is the beautiful thing about acting is like, you know, you see these actors over the course of time, you start to kind of like, see movie after movie and you get to kind of know, like their personality. We know Ben Affleck as his humor. Sure. And it's coming out. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I love when he meets the coach at like the first game. You know, it's the asshole coach who we're going to see later at the big game. But you know what he's like. Yeah. Good players and what players. And then he just turns to his assistant. He's like what an asshole. This guy is like it's yeah he's funny. He's funny how to be funny. And he's swearing and yeah into it. And he's passionate and it's like a beautiful scene. That's why I love when that one guy flips out about like the call he gives, like the wave. He's like, just settle down. Yeah, yeah. Fucking dick. Like, come on now. What are we talking about? And. Yeah. And it's just, and he's like, yeah, I feel a comeback coming up. Yeah. You know, and all this and that. And then boom, we cut. And then it just like freeze frame. We see the score, they got kill and they got that early. All scores of like 78 to 31 dudes getting, creamed. And and one thing I also like about it too is like, we talk about it being a sports movie. And we know Gavin O'Connor is very good at sports movies. He did miracle, which I call warrior. Yeah. I believe miracle to be the best hockey movie ever made. That's. Yeah, that's my take on that movie. I mean, he recreates the Miracle on Ice at the end of that movie, and it is absolutely. It's thrilling. He recreates it. Yeah, but I do. I didn't notice that. And I think this was a choice for it. Where is because well, how we talk about what is this movie actually it's it's not a sports movie. No, but there are sports involved. But we are not getting the coverage of these games in like the detail and specificity. If we do an example like miracle, which I love, which I love too, because what this is, is this is Jack's story. This is about addiction. And yes, what we're seeing is his points of view emotionally about the game, his points of view on these. We don't get to know these kids all that well. Yeah, just a little a little strange. But you got, you know, the white boy who loves the ladies. You know, the guy, the one guy who definitely has a chip on his shoulder. We know them as well as he knows exactly. So we're not, like in miracle. Like you're getting to know each player and you know it a lot like Mighty Ducks. Like, if you look at all these sports movies, this is the way that they do it, because that's the whole entire point. This is about the team. This is not a movie about that. This is a movie about Ben Affleck's character and the fact that he's coaching these kids, and it's a source of positivity. It is just a part of his delicate, crumbling life. And then when we get to that last half hour it goes away. Yeah. And and that's it. Yeah. Like it was something that lasted for like a little bit and, and it was something good for him that he, but he fucked up and it was not enough to sustain because now they're winning and they're going to go to the playoffs which is like cool, keep this going. But he can't handle the the anger still feels from the loss of his son. So whether he had it together for 4 or 5 weeks like who knows. It's boom. And that's what it feels like. Yeah, it feels like a month. Yeah. Maybe two months. Yeah. And and you can see the, the, the way that it affects him in such a positive way. And he knows that even if he can't really speak to it, that's why he keeps showing up. Exactly, exactly. You know. And it's what he does care. You can see all that. And, one of the, my favorite, parts of, you know, when you get to fact that his assistant coach. Yeah. Whose name? Dan. But whose name in real life is al. So I'm probably gonna get this wrong. Al Madrigal and Matt Madrigal, he's a stand up comedian. He started all things comedy with Bill Burr there. So he is like, Gavin O'Connor is really good at sometimes these good casting choices. And he's great. And I love this guy. I love how they give him a little world to, like, why wouldn't you take the job? You know, my mom's got miss, like, he has a life, too. Yeah, yeah. I love him. The he's the the one person that calls Ben Affleck out on some things. Like the first one is, like, in the parking lot. Yeah. I noticed a few beer cans in the and Ben Affleck, the way he fumbles over his exploits. I just had a friend just watch some tape. You're not gonna bust my balls over beers. It's so. Oh, just, You've been. You just won the big game. The. You know, you're it's not the big end game, but you've won an away game. You've taken the bus home and he's like, Dan, it's like, you know, how do I bring this up? And he just does. You know, I notice the beer cans don't let it happen again. He's like, yeah, all right fine. And he fumbles. He fumbles a few times. Yeah. People call him out. Oh yeah. Because he he in real time is searching for the excuse. The excuse what's going to be okay. What's passable. And he is not he never succeeds. No. He. No. When if he gets, he's good at hiding it when it needs to be hidden. But when someone calls, they get you to. Come on, buddy, I bust my balls for this rain. But that's how he resorts to. Once he realizes that he can't come up with an excuse to defend it. He goes to that to the defensive anger. Yeah. Which I mean, when he gets called out again in the office, a devastating scene. Oh, that's I mean, that is you see, that scene is one of my favorites of the media because I love the way the father handles it. Like, yeah, I feel like this might be part of a bigger problem. Would that be true, Jack? And they're trying to like it. If there's anyone to talk to you about your problems with drinking, it's like these, you know, the the father, the pastor, or you know, the. Yeah, that guy, that religious guy, and then his assistant, like, this would be the space where they you would not be judged at all, but instead it's denial, denial and then anger. He hits a can again. But but there's also these little bleeding moments of acceptance. Yeah. Because pleading. Yeah. Because like he goes from being like you fucking told on tries everything. He tries placing blame, plead okay. Yeah, I had a bad night. Yeah. Any and keep in mind he's trashed in this. Yeah, right. So they walk. Word is pouring. He was refilling. So that wasn't his first pour of the night. Yeah yeah yeah. And and, well, because he's also he's trying to get back to. Good because you have the night that he had the night and he can't. Yeah. So this is like after the downfall night. The really not the night where he crashed, but he got really, really drunk, overslept. And I'm like, dude, just like, call out for this day. You got. Yeah. Not feeling well, but it's that to, like even seeing him run back to the bar knowing how hungover he is. I can feel when he walks into that gym. You can smell him. Yeah. You can. I mean, I was wearing the same clothes as when he was in the hospital, see, you know, the kid, fall back into cancer like, it's it. It's just it's terrible. You can smell him. And then the I mean, the the players notice it. Like everyone. He just looks like hammered shit. Oh, yeah. My power run out and sorry, it won't happen again. And yeah, that after that practice is when they confront him in his office. And I notice in the writing of that scene where the the father and the assistant coach, they refer to the team as boys. Yeah. Every time. Yep. Because they are. And that's what you gotta remember too. It's like there's a responsibility here. Like. And that these boys are looking up to you. And we can't have this. No, we have a zero tolerance policy. And the the team chaplain on the bus. I love that line. Like, don't, don't, you know, like, be aware of the influence you can have on them about the not cursing. Like, do you really think God, like, gives a shit if I curse or anything? He's like, as you know, but followers of Christ, it's our job. I don't know, it's a great little line where he's like, so yes, I do think he gives a shit how you talk to these boys. And yeah, it's not like we are here to mold men. This is not a basketball facility. This is a high school. Like that's what it is. And if you're showing up late and boozed out of your mind like this is not. And then I just love all the changes he goes through. The blame, the pleading. He's slurring. I mean, it's just so obvious that he's drunk and then and then ending in anger, you know? Yeah. Fuck this. And and then and I love it. And then we go back to the swearing, like those scenes in the basketballs where he is swearing up the storm. It is so funny. It's hilarious. And I love when he is like, I will I will not coach a team that's going to be fucking out toughed. Yeah I will yeah. And I mean he's right there. There is good like mechanics in this because to me they're not the biggest of players. But I mean if you are if you're running for a full length game, like if a basketball game is 48 minutes and you got those boys multiple times a week running up and down those stadium stairs and you give them the permission if they push you fucking throw and shoulder and throw and elbow into him like I will not. It's we can lose every game, but I will not play a team. Yeah, we'll get out tough. Yeah. Play like you got fucking chip on your shoulder. Yeah, yeah I did like, occasionally look over like I'm working on it. Try harder. Yeah I'm trying father I'm trying. And I mean, he kind of kind of gets a little better. He always let some fly. But then, I mean, the game where he is sober and Sal makes that bad call and his whole family is there, and his nephew, like, has all the stats memorized. Oh, yeah. He just loses his complete temper over a bad call and he's losing his mind on cursing. Man, the games are all great, though. I mean, you know, once he kind of is going to give up the booze a little bit, there's, you know, he's getting more into Brandon. This kid like the star player of the team, he's driving home. We're hearing great stuff. There's I mean, I want to like, there's a murderer's row of, like, supporting actors in this. They don't really touch on. Like the dad from Wonder Years is a regular at the bar. Oh. He's there. That. Brandon's dad is T.K. Carter, who has been in a ton of things using the thing runaway train. But I know him as Milo from. Good morning, Miss Bliss. Like, saved by the Bell first thing. Wow. Yeah. So let's see, like there. So doc is Fred was in was the first mayor in the Wire who's getting, pleasured by a staff member like I. I've seen these guys before, and I just love seeing them. A guy from 1 or 2 years doesn't even have a line. Really? Just in the back. And the, the, the coach for the other team in the basketball game. Yeah. The one that he gives that wave to. Right. That's the dad. And better things. Oh, that's right, I knew I recognized him. That's right, that's right. He plays such a good kind of like smug. Yeah that's right. He's great in this too. He is such. What are you talking about? Like, that's, I love it, I love that. And then, you know, Gavin O'Connor talking about the sports thing. The man knows how to kind of montage. So when we're just cooking now and the team is sucked, but. And he's making them good and it is really good coaching like do all the little things. Right. Yeah. Do this thing that that's two points. That's four points. Yeah. That's six points. So we do all this, we start. But you know we add all up. We start getting pretty fucking tough to beat up in that he's so like do it. And it's you know working and things are you know okay well and that's what I mean like like it in these sets of things. There's nothing here we haven't seen before. Right. But that's the like the whole entire thing is, is like he what's so great is why you have to look at this as like, not necessarily a sports movie as, like, all these little things, these are all things like he's coaching but are reflective on to himself. Like hey all of a sudden you know we do enough good things and we got a pretty decent life going on right here. Yeah. And and, and so that's really why I like that. That aspect of it's definitely a choice you have to make. I think as a filmmaker, like how much do we want to devote to the sport? How much do we want to devote to all this? But yeah, like, you get a montage like that classic shit. Yeah. Classic. There went in there doing well. And I mean, he's, you know. Yeah, he is doing better. Like I love when he has the family to his house because they're going to come to the game. The this are still on and like thinking about replacing that shower curtain. Jack and cheese. Yeah I showed this movie to Ali. Like I watch it earlier in the week and then the next day I said it would mean a lot to me if we could watch this, because I told her I was thinking about doing it, bringing up my mom and stuff. Man. I mean, she absolutely loved it. She really had no idea, like where it was going. And again, at that hour, ten minute mark, she's she went, okay, this here, here we go. And I'm like, yeah, let's 30 minutes left. Yeah. Let's go. She thought he was going to die. And like that's the path he was on. And she just loved how all the little beats of it, she loved, tracking early on like, well, the sister's really on his case, But, I mean, isn't it kind of fair that she's on his case? She's been dealing with this, presumably, like, forever since he was you know, a teenager. Sounds like their dad had had a tough to, you know, was not maybe the best father. And I, you know, the support that they're there. And then her face when he's flipping out at the game of like, yeah that's my brother. Yeah. Like there he goes. And then but again he doesn't go like drinking after that game. Like it's okay. We still have the one big the one big game left which they do win and it's fantastic. And we I, I want to just pull out a few other elements here not related to the plot. We got to talk about how important music is the stories to this movie that it what I was you know, we're gonna we're in a hotel here in Los Angeles. We're recording in person. I usually say that at the top of the episode. Forgot to. So. Ready to go? Yeah. I was out of the room, running an errand. And when I came back, you just had to score, like blasting it. It went. All right, here we go. Let's go, baby, going into the way back and it is. So it's like, just these disparate notes and it's so beautiful and kind of haunting and perfectly captured, you know, like when he's doing well without going too far. But then when that downfall happens and I know I mentioned that shot of him, the wonder of him driving and it's a dude. It did, it did. And then going into the bar spin around the bar and you're like, all right, here we go. And man, he drinks that beer. Yeah. He pours that beer down. And the I also want to say like it's kind of a weird thing to say sometimes when he drinks those beer, like that one right there. If you like to drink beer in a bar, it looks like a really good beer. It looks like a cold, like tall glass of beer. It's not. And there's no, you know, we've seen them like, sit there for minutes, like, am I going to drink and doing that? And he just he takes a little beat but then it's boom. It's oh it's tipped back. And I, I love that like temptation of no the sun's like hitting the beer. It's making it like glow. It looks so frosty and it it's just but yes, yes, the the score is a huge component to the movie. It's huge. Huge. And I noticed it from the second it started, like, oh, man, this is beautiful. Yeah. And yeah. And it's, it's these notes. But then you get like, you know, like we always talk about like how score really is emotional manipulation. Yeah. And this is one where it hits you right away. And if you just let it that's like I think you have to let it like because throughout it it is giving you like like in that loop when he's going through it like these are, these are sad notes. Yeah. They're slower pace. But then like all of a sudden like you get like when things are starting to build a little bit, they're faster. Yeah. And they're a little bit more positive. You can feel it. Montage. It's all the building up. Some hope the editing in the moment where so like right before the big downfall. Right. So like one hour and nine minutes in when the basketball team wins. Yeah. And they're giving it like we're winning this game. Fuck it. Let's win this game. Yeah. And that orchestral set because we never get to the orchestral part. These are all like very sort of laying on notes keyboard notes. Because it is it doesn't have a quite a piano feel, but it's got that electronic sure type of feel. Yeah. That's more and it's got that organ, but it is like that electronic background but that big like the, the, the sound and then the pores on Affleck's face when he sees and he's like at this realization and, and I feel like the film edit kind of slows. Yeah. Well the yeah, they go to slow motion, you know. Yeah. Put the put Brandon on their shoulders that stuff. Yeah I, I, I literally jumped yeah like I when I but it was all based on like the buildup and the song the pause and then Affleck's face and I was like, oh, I took like a breath away. And I was like, that's fucking film right there. Yeah, that's what it does, you know? And but of course it's all the manipulation of it, but fuck it, bro works. Yeah, I don't that is what film is. It's emotional manipulation. I don't want you to go to like, if any movie could fall into maudlin sentimentality, it could be something like this. And it never it never does that. And yeah, it's score. It's editing. Like those games where we talked about like the focus isn't there's not a lot of inserts of like close ups on the ball or this. Is that because it's supposed to be playing off? Jack. Yeah. But those scenes are still really well done. Like the way they. Oh yeah, I think it's a second to last game when they feed it to Kenny in the corner. He does this baseline jumper three. And this is really cool how they let the game end in that wide shot. And you see him hit the shot and he almost gets blocked. And those scenes are really well done too. And then the cinematography there are some really cool stealth oners like I've talked about like following into the bar. It's all it's just it's it seems like a very kind of simple movie, but it's so. Well taken care of it really, in terms of cinematography. Like, I don't know if this was shot on film or digital, but this is one where I can't necessarily tell the difference. Like it looks like an actual movie. Not what we complain about all the time, how these movies are color corrected to hell, and you everything. It looks like it's shot in portrait mode on your phone. Like, no, this is actually showing you this guy's world in a very, you know, convincing way. Yeah, yeah. So his first downfall is that's when he wakes up and then he wakes up. Ladies late to practice. He gets fired and then. Yeah, I mean, that night, we were just boom. Back in the bar. Now there's a band on stage. This blond is buying him shots. And then like, we've seen this guy get carried home a lot from this bar. Now we just cut to him, drive in and you're going, oh my God, this. There's no way this ends well. Like there's just no way. And it doesn't. Thankfully, he doesn't die, but he gets himself arrested and ends up in the hospital. But wow, what a believable seed. Also bringing in some some of his humor when she stumbles into that house and opens the beer like, oh yeah, he had to pay, or like Chris or that guy, you know, pull your fucking dead stuff and he can't figure it out like you're dying. And so who the fuck is I? And he's like, I'm in the wrong house. I'm. And taking a piss in there playing or something. Oh, I think he made it to the toilet. I don't think there was a toilet. Oh, I see, I thought it was the bathroom so we could hear the urine splashing. You can't I, I because I'm watching, I go because I forgot about how this scene went. Yeah. And I'm like, is that are we back in his apartment? Are we in her house? And then I'm looking around, I go, I don't recognize any of this. And he goes into the area. And once I started putting together, like, he just wandered into someone else's house completely, right? He's not pissing in the toilet. Oh, see, I thought he was. But then that makes it. I mean, it's just pissing in. Pissing where he can find where you can find something in their house and, Yeah. And it's, And. Yup. And then he runs out and he's got that fall and that fall, that's all. Found him is sister. Did they tell you they found you unconscious in the street, you know, and they're again, like, talking about the addiction sentimentality stuff. We've all seen the movie once the person has hit the rock bottom and has to get sober, and they're these tearful confessions. I mean, this movie doesn't even have an AA meeting. It doesn't have anything like that. It has one little therapy session. It doesn't. It's not hitting those cliched beats of this. And there's, you know, the way that he it confesses of sorts to his wife and apologizes, it could have been set up so much, so much more. But it's, it's it's really like kept together and very tight and I absolutely believe him. But I, I watch this movie and you know, when he says to her, I hope you can see in me, you know, the man you once did, I think she's kind of done with you. And that's what I get. I don't know if she's gonna come back, like a lot has happened, but that will be part of his ongoing journey as well. Is accepting that she I ruined that, and there's nothing you can do about it like. But you that shouldn't give you an excuse like, well, screw it, I'm still going to keep drinking like you got gotta, you know, be sober. You have a supportive family. They picked you. Oh, yeah. From rehab. Like, you have things in your life. And I actually, I think it kind of bothered me the first time that we don't get the, apology to Dan, to the assistant coach. We see him call him, you know, when he's on the bus, like, hey, Dan, but I like that. Like what? What what could he say? He's not going to beg for his job back. But I imagine that was an apology too. And now we start the way back. Could he be coaching next year? Maybe 1,000%? Yeah. I also think like in like, obviously, you know, you look at a school like that in the like the father and everything like that thing is, is like if all of a sudden you start doing the work and if anyone is going to give you a second chance, yes, it's going to be that community. Yeah. Maybe with. Okay. Yes, Jack, let's give this a try. We're going to be a little we're going to move on. We're going to Monroe and stuff. And if we ever get a whiff of. Yeah, because it's frankly very apparent to us when you've had a drink first, you know, ten like we could tell that ever happens again. It's going to be the same thing. You'll be zero tolerance gone and never welcome back. Probably. But I could see a version where they do let him try to clean himself up. Yeah. Because because he didn't I mean, he he didn't he didn't completely burn the bridge like he he he, no, he says some choice words as he's leaving, like, I did a lot for these kids, but I think they are able to see that he's drunk right now. And he probably doesn't mean any of this. Yeah. I think there's a world where when he comes back from this, you know, he reaches out or somehow they find out and like, so I've been sober for, you know, this long things are going good and like, well, if you know, things keep going like this. Doors open, you know, we can we can do something like that. And and that's how it goes, you know? And you can't bank on it. You can't depend on it. But I mean, you put your foot forward in the, in the right direction. Things do doors open up in those ways where it's like positive begets positive. Yeah. And so yeah, I think there's totally a world where he gets back to that. Yeah. And maybe that's just the hopeful side of me, but sure. But I even I'm not there's, you know, some I'm saying it maybe isn't as hopeful that he's going to have a continuing relationship with his ex, but that's part of the last. Yeah. Yeah. Exact on. Yeah. Me too. So that's not a very hopeful thing. But maybe the team is or you know, basically he seems to have gotten to a place where he realizes this is not the way. So let me try to, you know, build back. But I love how we end and like it just it's that wide shot shooting hoops and what now what? It just like I said it, I think it ends with a beginning. And you're not necessarily left in dread. We've had a pretty, like, tough go of it. Like, this movie has spoken the truth and but I love how it ends without too much sentiment. But you know, nothing is like, fully clicked into place. You're just you're just going to have to do this thing called life now. But yeah, good luck. It's hard for all of us. Yeah. One of my favorite lines, is when he's talking to Brandon in the car and he goes, I got a lot of regret. I spent a lot of time trying to hurt myself, trying to hurt my father. That right there, that was my dad. Yeah. Everything my dad did in terms of his addiction was all because of his dad. He he spent his entire life, making those choices and decisions as a fuck you. Yeah. To him and, and ultimately, like, what I gather from all that is like, you know, it doesn't ever work. No, never. And when my dad's dad died, there was no, like, at no point in my dad's life did, what he was doing matter in that regard? Like, finally, like, here you do you get it now. And then after his dad passed, he kept doing all that. Exactly. It doesn't, you know. So and I don't, and I'm. I don't think my dad ever reached a point of realization, because, you know, died. Yeah. But, of it, but I mean, holding on to that kind of anger or that kind of reasoning for why you are doing what you're doing to your body, to your mind. It's never going to work. No, because you're trying to best someone or prove something to someone who's dead, like, been at like Jack's dad in the movie is dead, but he's still you. It's like you're you're this is a one way fight. You're just fighting yourself. Yeah, and you're just doing damage. Yeah, you're just doing damage to yourself, ultimately. And, you know, and it seems like, you know, he he even had like the awareness in that particular moment to say that, you know, to recognize that. But then he says that was all because of my wife that I got out of doing all yeah, know. Yeah. So I realize all this because of her, but now he's got all this stuff with his son. So like, life doesn't get easier or anything like that, but you, And then, you know, the realization comes again by the end of the movie where he's like, I can't be what my son would want me to be. Yeah. Like, how do you think this is how Mike would want to see you? Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. And I that's why I do feel like there's some hope. Because I feel like this is the first time he's realizing all this. I think there's a lot of hope. Yeah. And I do like, that's that's my take on it. It's like to me to this new day is actually going to be, it's going to stick. Yeah. It's, you know, do you, it's one day at a time. Do you want to stay angry, stuck in the past, or do you want to try to find a way back in your life, you know, maybe never go to Harold's place again? Oh, yeah. Maybe that would be a good start. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Change your life. That's what you have to do. But I think this is, a beautiful film. Special film. It. It can only be 25 films on the top 25 of the century so far. And I did want to put warrior there, but, I mean, absolutely, since this is one of the best movies made since Covid or it was right before. But like in the last five years, top rankings for me, this film is it's like one of the best I've seen in the past five years. I mean, yeah, I think about the top, top ten of this. It would be top ten the last five years. Oh my God. Not even close for me. Absolutely. What an abysmal time. It's been. No, no, I know it would be a decent top ten because we're just yeah it would be actual gold for the year. But you know warrior reminds me of my brother a lot in this. There's a lot of things, a lot of movies that remind me of my mom, like the ones that we love together and watch so many times together. And this movie came out after she died, and it's still, it's still just wild how much it hits me and makes me think about her. Not like I watch stuff like this. It doesn't. It does not trigger those angry feelings within me. It doesn't. I just I like I said, I feel very seen by stuff like this, which is why the What You Watching podcast tends to tip toward movies of this tone. In this, what I consider to be very real. And I understand this is not a movie you're going to put on. And like a Friday night with a couple beers, it's maybe not that kind of movie. And I get that, well, there's a there's a sense to Gavin O'Connor's work, where it is, it is just an understanding. Yeah, it's an understanding of all of this. And and that's, I think what he posits with warrior. I think the warrior in the Way Back are like linked in a lot of ways. Yes. I agree. Well, for you personally, the way that they are, but just in the way that Kevin O'Connor kind of expresses these characters, what's in the way for them, what these reasonings are and then just letting it be. Yeah, he doesn't judge them. He doesn't. There's just even McNulty like, you get to that scene in warrior. That's just what that is. Yeah. And and we understand it because. Because. Yeah. Exactly. And it's so hard to watch. Yeah. But there isn't a judgment to it. It's just. And then, you know, because Tom Hardy's one that's watching that. Yeah. And so we see his. And then we also realize that he's taking that with him in his. Yeah. Out of here. Yep. And going into that fight you know and all that. And that's that's a lot what this is. So there's there's a lot of real raw no judgments and just kind of a universal understanding that Gavin O'Connor puts to his work that I think is really, really important and beautiful. Yes, I agree and we've touched on there like two aspects of Gavin O'Connor's, you know, career. And I think I don't have like an exact play by play of how this got made. But he did make The Accountant with Ben Affleck and that was a huge hit. And that's like 16 around there. 17 something. So that would lead to, hey, you know the way back. And then they do that and then they just came out with the accountant to another big hit. So that Gavin O'Connor, it's like, okay, doing those types of movies too. But I always prefer when it part of me feels like, let me go make accountant two so I can, in three years, release another the way back. Well, you'd hope that this is you know that that's one of our. That's the old school style is one for you, one for one for them, one for me. Exactly. And you can only kind of hope that you know these two, right? I mean, honestly, at this point now, directors are the only kind of like still going from that type of, how it works. Yeah. Like. Yeah. And I mean, in directors, like, they sell movies more than actors. I think in some ways now, in some fashion. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so you can kind of only hope that that's what's going on right here, because I'm sure because he, he writes a lot of his stuff or. No, he didn't write. He didn't write this one. You didn't write this one so. Well. He certainly does. He's able to kind of take how he he knows how he's going to take that story and be like, I know how we're going to do this. I know how we're going to tell this story, and it's going to be filtered through my way of doing it. Yeah. And and that's. Yeah. So more of that, more of that. Well, yeah, this was this was an intense episode. But the whole point of like talking about the stuff for me is we've this has been our mission statement of the pod from the beginning where, you know, we for some movies, we love them. And you know why I had to figure this stuff out, too. It wasn't like the first time I watched the way back. I was it was all this was ringing all these bells. Not at all. I went back and kept rewatching it, rewatching it. But it's okay. Maybe to take some time every now and again to explain why these things, like why do sleepers mean so much to me, you know, why do these things hit so hard? Why does the music of Haim mean so much to me? That phantom thread like I it's okay to do that and say, you know, my life is so ingrained with film, like it's just such a part of it. And to see something like this, it's worth talking about for like, oh yeah, that I did. You know, this is not the podcast. We're like, yeah, it's a good sports movie. And like, oh, the addiction stuff's having Ben Affleck's great, you know, part done. Like, no, let's go into it like it's fine, it's fine. We're here. Everyone safe. And I hope if you have, you know, people struggling in your life like I hear you, I see you. If you're struggling. Believe me, if we both hear you because we both had people in our lives who have done this stuff. I'm really obviously I know the friend you're referring to, and it's been it has been great, as you know, a supporting player in that to see his growth and see it happen in real time and how you can, yeah, almost die multiple times. And now you're doing better than ever. And that's, that's a pretty common thing when you hear these stories, like just about every alcoholic in recovery I have ever met says that being sober is so much better. It's just so much better. But I, I understand the difficulty of it. I do. Yeah. Well, and it's still and it's even for my friend, you know, it's it's it's not easy. It's. No, it's, it's not because. Oh hey I haven't been drinking for a year. I'm good for the rest of my life. This is why it's one day at a time. Yeah, it's every day. But he just knows exactly that. It's sort of like, well, this is better. Yeah. And it's it's going to be an active choice. And that's ultimately what it comes down to. It's like, you know, you you make the choice for yourself or you don't. And there's only two ways that this goes. That. Yeah that's true. Yeah. That was fun though I feel I love talking about the movie I you know I love this whole the score. It's great. Told we got to get it. We got to get to our big one. We're not done. What. We got to get to our favorite, drunken performances. Oh, okay. Yes, yes. You're all right. Yeah. Let's do that. I did have that up there that I. I kind of buried over. What a good way to end it. A good list of the best drunks in cinema history. Yeah, I tried to do a top five, but this list like these, because these. And we're not doing addiction. So, you know, you're not going to hear shame. For me, we're doing alcoholics on film and just the ones that have resonated with us. So I don't do any research when I make lists like this, I'm like, I want to do it from the top of my memory. And, you know, where is this one rank? So yeah, let's go through him. You want to read me yours or just go up? I didn't rank them or anything. Rank my. That's why there's no ranking. Okay? Just some just the all timers. All right. Okay. Let me. Okay. So so I have okay. So I have like a list of well one of them I've never seen and I've heard because I started because sometimes I was sort of like in my head I go, I know who is coming to the top of my mind, but I do kind of want to like ChatGPT this. Okay. And, so this is one that I'd actually really like to see. And I've heard so much about this movie, it might even be on your list, but, Ray Milland from The Lost Weekend, that is number one. There we go. That is directed by Billy Wilder, won best picture in 1945. Ray Milland, the Lost Weekend. My dad showed me that movie very young. And I mean, it's like, yeah, and it's a very it's a simple movie. But like in the beginning, his I believe it's his girlfriend. And like, or maybe his brother and his brother's girlfriend are going to go out of town and he's, he's, on the, on the wagon. So he's sober. But then I don't know if it's the first shot, but soon enough we see, like, out of his apartment building, he has a bottle of alcohol tied to a string, and it's like hanging outside of the window so that no one can see it. And right before they leave, someone finds the bottle and they're like, oh, my God, should we leave? Oh no, I forgot. I put it there, I forgot I put it there. And then he has this weekend where he just gets where he's alone and gets hammered and you know, and it is, it is so good. Best actor. He won best actor. It's one of my favorite Best picture winners ever. I of course love Double Indemnity with my whole heart. Oh, you love Sunset Boulevard. But like a sentimental, no screwing around favorite from Billy Wilder is The Lost Weekend. You would love it. It's a fantastic movie. Good job. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Keep going guys. More so then, well, I pretty much John Cassavetes in Love Streams in particular, but honestly, you could take any performance from any John Cassavetes movie husband. Yeah, but not just him. I mean, all of them. Peter Falk. Oh, my. Oh, he's so Ben Gazzara drunk in husbands. I mean, I think they were actually drunk like that. They were. Because at some point, I think it's either one of them. They start calling each other their first names, like they're. So I can start saying, Ben, Peter, John. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That that is. Yeah. They were I mean especially Cassavetes. We're talking about professional boozers. Yeah. I mean that is what killed his. What killed him. So that's definitely in there. But then if, you know, if we're really talking like the the act of performing drunk Paul Newman and both the hustler and the verdict. Oh, the verdict. Oh, my God, yeah, that's a great call. Yeah. Hustler. Yes. But the verdict, what he's like I mean, we start that way. You know. So the eggs, the raw eggs dump the beer I mean again that is what I would call like a professional boozer. That lawyer, he's got a job. But pinball.

7: 1:43:39

00 am before work and. Yep. Drinking. Drinking. Yeah. I think he also had, you know, Paul Newman was an alcoholic, like. Yeah. I mean, if you watch that documentary that Ethan Hawke did, like he had, I don't know if he ever cleaned it up, but he was a huge, massive beer drinker who would basically just get trash off beer every night. Yeah. So he knew how to play it. Well, yeah. And then these are two of my favorite female performances. Of course, Gena Rowlands. Yeah. And the influence I mean, that just goes down. It's just an overall it's like one of the best performances ever. But also Elizabeth Taylor and Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? Very believable boozer. Yes. I love that performance so much. And then this, these are I got Nick Nolte in Warrior. Yeah. And, this is one that I really do like. I, Bradley Cooper and A Star is Born. Yeah, yeah. Different type because he's kind of like, he'll take pills. Like he's kind of take. Yeah, exactly. But, I mean, booze is the anchor, though, for sure. Booze is the anchor. And like, you get to you get to I mean obviously like the pissing in the pants scene. They got to play me win. Yeah. That is one of the most like I remember watching it for the first time. And when he is sort of like doing the way and he's walking up there, it's like, oh my God. But even when he comes out, because right before that I believe is the boot smash. Yeah, maybe it's right around there, but he comes out and he's been cleaned up for a while. Yeah. And even Lady Gaga from her seat and she's like, oh, because he like drops his pick or something and she's like, oh my god. Yeah. He just can't do it. Yeah. Val Kilmer in Tombstone. Oh yeah. That is Cool Bear. That is he's drunk all the time. Yeah, yeah, it sure is. And there's an entertainment side of it. But I mean, you just watch the way that he slurs in the way that he's sort of like size and people up, but he's using that charm. And that is we've never we've always toy around this, this, idea of an episode of our favorite movie characters of all time. That's top five for me. Oh, yeah. Val Kilmer tombstone. That's a that is a that's a that's a fucking performance. I love that performance. He's so good. It's so good. Oh it's so good love tell. Well yeah I had Ray Milland as well from last weekend. There's another one here. Jack Lemmon Days of Wine and Roses. Wow. That's 1962, directed by Blake Edwards, mostly known for comedy, Pink Panther. Like, that's what he did. And they. This is going all in and what's cool about a cool what is, different about this one is that he is he's a boozer. When when it begins and, you know, work and everything. And then he meets someone, a lady. And when they meet, she's like, you know, just this buttoned up, like, nice lady. And he turns her. Yeah. Just like with the experience of being around him, you know, you're watching the relationship go. And now she's hooked to. And she's on the booze and you know, that is that's a really towering performance of an alcoholic. I think maybe the you know, the bar is maybe Nicolas Cage and leaving Las Vegas like. Yeah, really? That's it. That's something where I mean, what a level of commitment. And you know, he was drunk once when they did that for the, when they go to the casino, he flips the table, flips the table. He gotta listen to an interview. I think Mike Figgis, maybe he was on The Brady Snell's podcast, but he was on an episode in him describing that night. He's like that. Yeah, that was a night because we, you know, we were going to the we had that night planned and at some point like in that we're setting up and everything and like an hour into the set up either like his an ad like an assistant came up to Vegas and he's like, you know, Nicole's in his trailer slamming vodka, and he is, gone, like he is wasted. And then he came out and did that scene. But I bring that up because a lot of people watch that and go, oh, he was just drunk throughout the whole movie. Yeah. And he wasn't at all. But man, that is so believable. But it's a very different thing because that's a that's like the only movie, at least on my list where someone announces their statement of like, I am going to drink myself to death. Yeah, that is what I'm doing. It's it is. Yeah. It's a very specific one. But they again nonetheless, like you go scene by scene and you just see the way that he wears that performance. I think I told you about the guy that, when I worked at room service, the guy who was just drinking himself to death, in my opinion. Yeah, because all he would do is order booze and soup and and, and I remember I came back because he was with us for, like, four days, and we everyone knew him because they were like, we're we're delivering up to him, like, every two hours it's either alcohol or booze. And when you walked into that room, it the smell, yo. Yeah, it was puke. Yeah. It was like you saw the sheets and he was just completely trashed. Every time I, I remember, I walked back down, I go. I think this guy's trying to drink himself to death, right? Like there's no there's no other explanation for what this is. Who orders soup? Like, if, you know, like as a continuous thing is more liquid. Yeah. And he wouldn't even order like, you know, like the. Yeah, it was whatever. Like the thinnest soup. What he had just wanted the broth. Tomato soup. Right. Yeah. Things like that. So I don't know what happened to him, but, I don't think it was a good. Yeah. Probably not. I mean, you know, we see we see these things, we observe these people, and you're like, what? What? Yeah, what what happened? What happened? And I mean, you said Nick Nolte in Warrior, but I also have James Coburn in Affliction. And I am not in there. But he is like, we don't even see him. Really. Coburn drank that much in it. You're just like this. You can tell right away that you meet him. This guy who's been like this his whole life, and he's traumatized anyone who has come even close to him. So it's interesting. I don't even do this on purpose. But Raymond Lin, Nicholas Cage, and James Coburn all won Oscars for the for these performances. And then, yeah, I would put Affleck very, very high up, especially for a contemporary one because my most recent one is 1998. But Coburn is, an older guy in that like, you know, a younger guy like Affleck's age. Believable, the blue collar drinking, like, it just doesn't get that much more authentic than the way back. It really doesn't. It's true. Yeah, I agree. Damn. And then I. Yeah, like more recently I mean she does a bunch of different things, but like, Naomi Watts and 21g was always one of my favorite of substances. But she's doing a lot of different things. But her, the way that she falls back into it, that was always. But yeah, I mean, those are like my top, top level. And I can go back to those performances just about any time. I really appreciate them. You know, there it is. Ready to do what are you watching? Sure. All right. Hit me with it. Oh, I'm going now. Yeah, I'm going to do it. Yeah, I can go first if you want. No no no no no no no. Once you find the way back in once again to what are you watching back? Yeah, sure. Sure. So I know you know this movie. Okay, I've. You've recommended this on the pod before, and I finally watched it. Oh, my God, what the hell is his name? Fassbinder. Ali two. Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah. Good. Paul, I have not seen that in ages, but that is a wow. That's a good movie. And a very important arthouse movie in the 70s, you know? Yeah, and understandably so. Yeah. I mean it's simple. There is I mean it's simple in every single way. The locations, the characters, what's happening and the way it unfolds it, there's, there's not much to this movie, but by the time you get to the end and it goes through everything, every real moment that happens in that movie, the turns that it makes, they all really hit. Yeah. And, and you feel every moment of it and it's it's, it's beautiful, it's devastating. It's sad, but it it's also just very I mean, it's like, still relevant. Unfortunately. Yeah. Racism. I mean, but it, it it's just honest. Yeah. Very just honest and mean. It gets very mean at times. Like the way that, like her family treats her. Yeah. You know, but then like, the, like, weird acceptance that does start to roll around and then how he goes back to, like, what everyone said he was. Yeah. No, I didn't expect that. But then it comes back and it's like, love is love. And it's a lot of things you take away from that you think about and, makes me want to rewatch it. Yeah, yeah. It's good. I liked it a lot. So it's I remember that's one where, like, you hear a lot about it, Ali fear. It's a soul. And it's always so affirming to me. When you watch a movie that is, you know, it's popular for whatever reason, arthouse movie, this not famous foreign movie. And you watch and you're like, oh, yeah, it is that good. Okay, good. I see why it has a reputation. It has. And that's one of them. You're like, yeah, that deserves the reputation, the ongoing reputation. Yeah, that's a really good movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's so simple. Like, I mean when you watch it and you actually literally see like the way that he's setting up these shots, like the way that, like it just goes from the same places over and over. Like it doesn't ever really expand itself. And then the colors, like, you remember the colors of that movie and, and sometimes they're bright, but sometimes they're like, they're like muted. Yeah. It's just, it's one of those things where it's like, why is this work? Why is this really resonating so much, when it's also sloppy at times? Yeah. Like there's things where it's sort of like, you know, like the movement feels stage left, but it it works. Yeah. It does, it does. Yeah. That's a great pool. I've. Yeah. We have talked about that one a little bit. So the one I'm going to recommend is a favorite. Oh and we've talked about it on the podcast that was W and NP I believe so it better be that it should be. But this is another film, released in the last five years that I've become relatively obsessed with, like the way back. And I can watch it anytime. I watched it last week just because I wanted to redo it. And then again, I told my wife, like, I think it would be really important. It would be important to me if we showed this to you. And that is petite mom. And I'm like quadrupling down on this because folks like, this movie is 73 minutes long and it is such a perfect encapsulation of humanity, loss. Like we're talking about depression. And, you know, there are some lines in this set by eight year old girls that are just some of the most profound sentences on depression that I've ever heard, such as, like you didn't you didn't create my grief, or, I mean, the movie. I don't even want to explain it. But if you watch it and you sit down and you maybe you know, you're going to go home, like, tilt your head a little bit as you're watching it, but when it ends, you'll be totally taken care of. And unlike the way back, which is very heavy and intense and dark at times, this is a PG rated, just beautiful movie about, really mothers and daughters to me is a lot of what it's about. And I'm mentioning now because I just looked it up. It is on Tubi. So this movie is available to watch. Sometimes we recommend stuff that like you can't really find that easily. This is Celine Scheana who made, Portrait of Lady on Fire before, which was a very popular movie. But, I mean, I own Petite Mama. Oh my God, my wife. She just loved it. She loved it so much. And when it was done, because it's the type of movie where to me, it's best scene is like its final moment. You go, I mean, you're like, punch in the face in a good way, not in a, you know, bad, traumatic way at all and go, wow. So I really encourage people to watch it. It's just a nice, affirming movie. Very simply told, I love it. You're welcome. Yes, you did see that first you did. And you were like, because you saw something else that you didn't like, and then you just wandered into petite moment like, all right, let's see what this is. It was a double feature that needed to happen because I had to wash the taste out of my mouth. Yeah, the. I don't remember what you saw first. It was the, it was the Nicolas Cage. Pedro Pascal. Oh, yeah. That long title. The thing where he does it, where he's playing himself. Yeah, I yeah, I just thought so that that what a missed opportunity to go into like, the real Nic Cage weirdness. And they didn't work for me either, I just didn't Pedro Pascal was great. Then the cage was good, but I was like, this movie could have been something. Something needed a palate cleanser, French palate cleanser, petite moment. Great film. Go watch it. Go watch the way back. Let us know what you're thinking. You know, at white W underscore podcast, I usually do have a sign off, and I'm not trying to be cute, but, because this movie reminds me so much of my mom, I, Alex, I have I really, genuinely don't know what happens after, you know, we die. I don't know, nobody does. Yeah, no one. But the best answer I've ever heard about it is when Stephen Colbert kind of jokingly asked Keanu Reeves, what do you think happens after we die, Keanu? And he takes a break and he says, I know that those who love us will miss us. And I love my mom, and I miss her. Hey everyone, thanks again for listening. Send us mailbag questions at What Are You Watching podcast at gmail.com or find us on Twitter, Instagram and Letterboxd at W underscore podcast. Next time we're going to wrap up season one of the What Are You Watching New Hollywood Film Project? It's a big episode where we cover three new Hollywood films. Stay tuned for that and some heavy stuff in this episode. I was personally only able to record this because of the support I get from my wife and my dad and Nick and all of you, our fans, our listeners, John Klein and Logan. Thank you genuinely. Thank you. Rest in peace to my mom. Rest in peace to Nick's dad. Rest in peace to Rob Reiner. Rest in peace to James Ransone. Let's try to be there for each other, you know. See you in 2026. Thanks for listening and happy watching. I love.