160: All That Jazz (1979)

It’s showtime, folks! As Alex and Nick break down Bob Fosse’s masterpiece, “All That Jazz,” the guys discuss Fosse’s career, autobiographical films, accepting death, Roy Scheider, “Fosse/Verdon,” the 1979 Oscars, “Vanilla Sky,” and much more.

At the end of the episode (01:33:24), Alex does a solo review of the “Mission: Impossible” film franchise, including spoiler-free thoughts on “Mission: Impossible – The Final Reckoning.”

Part 3 of the WAYW New Hollywood Film Project.

Follow @WAYW_Podcast on Twitter and Instagram and Letterboxd.
Send mailbag questions to whatareyouwatchingpodcast@gmail.com

Transcript

0:00

123. One, two. Showtime, folks. Oh, I'm excited for these takes today. Good. I want you to give them to us. Give em to. Hey, everyone. Welcome to. What are you watching? I'm Alex with throw in. I'm joined by my best man, Nick, though. So how are you doing there, RJ? RJ, what is its name? His name's. His name's Gilly. It's the deepest among cubs. Know all that jazz is in the rarefied field of autobiographical films. Great autobiographical films. You got all that jazz? Platoon is up there. There I go. I am alive. That's like the deepest of all cuts. I changed it right at the last minute. You know, these autobiographical films they're talking about. So Biograph, I know, I know, oh, Jesus Christ. But there was jazz. There was jazz, there was. Yeah. See, I did that on purpose, and there's not even any jazz and all that jazz I know, I know well, do you know where it derives its title from? Well, yeah. The like the the expression like. Well, the Chicago song, like from Chicago. Oh, that that's the that's the stage show he's putting on in the movie. That's what he's supposed to be putting on, because that's what that's what he's supposed to be putting on. Everything has a different name. The movie he's cutting is called quote unquote, the stand up. But it's actually that was Lenny. Yeah, starring Dustin Hoffman as Lenny Bruce. So he was doing that and putting on Chicago at the same time, but for rights issues, they couldn't, you know, use like Chicago song. So it's all different numbers and all that jazz. But yes, in theory that's what he's supposed to be doing. Yeah. Oh, see, you know, you just took me on a giant roller coaster because at first you were like, you're like, at first it was a whole thing where it was about Chicago. And then I was like, oh, that's disappointing. But then you're like, no, he was choreographing it, and that's a line from it and then it. And then I was back on the train. Okay, I guess so. I thought the title was was an expression turned into a disappointment, redeemed itself. And I'm back totally redeemed itself. Okay. I actually want to start with a I actually want to start with the prompt. I had this buried in legacy. Is this not a trick question at all? So I'm going to ask you I'm gonna give you multiple choice, okay. You make a movie legacy about your whatever it could be about anything, but let's say it is about a period of your life. You make a movie and you can choose one of the four. One of the four happens as a result. You can a you can win the Palme d'Or can be you can join the National Film Registry. Big deal. See, you can win four Oscars. The movie can win four Oscars. The movie can win four Oscars or D your film could be hailed as, quote, the best film I think I have ever seen by Stanley Kubrick. Oh, accolade do you want because all four of those happened to Bob Fosse's All That Jazz. Wow. I'm going with Kubrick, man. I'm. See what the Kubrick quote. Here's the thing, man. He's dead. Okay. And so is Fauci. Yeah, but but but how is in dead when he said this. Yeah. You didn't say from the grave but but like okay in the annals of history, you've got some things that are going to last forever. Correct I think yes. Yes. You're you are. That is true. So which one are you taking then? That's why. That's why it's a good prompt. I think I'm going to go with the Palme d'Or. Yeah, that'd be my second. My second choice. Yeah. Because it wasn't that he won four Oscars. The movie won four Oscars. Still. I mean, that's awesome, but those are just a few of the accolades received by Bob Fosse's penultimate film, All That Jazz, which we are covering today as a part of the what Are You watching Say It New Hollywood film project. I got it out. It's a word full. I made it a mouthful. On purpose. Yeah. How do you feel to be here today? Because I understand it was your first time seeing this film. It's showtime. It's showtime, folks, and it just gets progressively weirder. Those intros, aren't they great? I mean, I jeez, I smoking in the shower. There's. There's so much here, dude, I have no idea. I could not even even imagined in a million years. I'll tell you what I, you know, you know, me, being the musical aficionado that I am sure, that's that's sarcasm jokes. You're faithful and loyal. Humble co-host for what? Are you watching, Nick? No. Still is not a fan of musicals, nor am I. But we do have our outliers. Like it's true. Like, Tom, you like tick, tick, boom. What's that was called? And it's not a musical to me, though. He's a there's one actual legitimate musical number in there, but I think like that's a movie about a guy making a musical. Oh, okay. Kind of like this. Yeah. Kind of like this. Yeah. So this doesn't this to me doesn't actually there, there is like, there is those numbers. But again, except for the very end, the number one, I think the one with like the fun one with all the nudity and all that like that. Yeah, yeah. In, in the context of the movie, that's a rehearsal. Yeah. They're putting this on to show someone. So that still does not ring to me as amusing. A musical is where reality becomes the spectacle. Yes. So we're we're basically talking about diegetic sound and non diegetic like non-diabetic is where like music comes from out of nowhere and they just break into song and dance. This is one of the reasons I won't keep bringing it up, I promise, but that I would love for you to rewatch or watch for the first time Singin in the rain, because every song in that is diegetic and they will, he will like, break out into song on the famous one on the street, there's a cop looking at him like, the implication is, why the hell is this guy dance? Singing and dancing in the rain in the street like this? Like what? So they're all. They all live within it, like in this movie. Whatever. I'll stop. I'll stop trying. I mean, if you really want me to, I'll. I'll tell you. Like Babylon. So, like, what's the. I don't get it. Well, well, because Babylon is not a musical, but Babylon is like a beat for beat recreation of Singin in the rain. And it all comes down to Singin in the rain, the end. And we should. The cameras should be pointed the other way. Well, to be honest, I don't even like that song. That's Singin in the rain. I'm singing and I don't like it. I don't like that. I think it's stupid. You like it when Malcolm McDowell sings it, where he talks about all that jazz. Well, you you cut me off. I did. Okay. Sorry, sorry. Continue. So. Yes. Because I asked you if you were excited to be here. Yes, I was, I wasn't in it. But upon first upon first of you bringing this to the New Hollywood Project series. Yes. Due to my ignorance, I can admit these things do do due to my naivete. I saw that title and I immediately thought this was some music. Long go! This motherfucker right here is trying to sneak one by me. This guy right here is trying to get me to watch some fucking musical. I. I can't say no to this son of a bitch. And, But you were like, you basically just said, if you've never seen it, it's not what you think it is. No. And so I was like, okay. And so I started it and, so having the complete idea of something other than what this was, I can't even really quantify the experience that I had because this movie is amazing. Yeah. It's like unbelievably, everything about it. I and that's the thing that there's no real way to talk about this. That's what I text you. I was like this. I don't imagine this is going to be one of the longer pods we've done in this series or otherwise, because there's no way to outline this. I mean, I could, but it wouldn't be a fun way to talk about it. Like go through the movie beat for beat. That's not that would not be capturing the essence of this movie, honestly, the essence of it. Like we're still going to do our fun categories and our prompts and everything, but it's just to have an open, freewheeling conversation about it because that's how the movie is stitched together. Yeah, but it all works. It all lands, obviously it oh, it lands, it, it it it's all, it it's even like the very first thing that I wrote down was like, I didn't know how I was feeling about this opening. Like, there's so much going on. Yeah. And and I was and I was watching it and I go, I literally did one of these. I put like my hands in my face and it goes, this is how this whole fucking thing is going to be. And. Yeah, and but then the craziest thing happened is that I just, I the more that action started to happening and the more I started learning, the more that was being revealed. I my hand went away from my face and I go, oh, this is oh, it's not stopping. This has been like ten minutes and, we're just going and I and I'm like, okay, but I'm I'm getting it. I'm like, oh, this is really compelling. This is, and and then that that train just never stopped it. Like, like there's so many different moving pieces to this, but it's just a it's a complete fever dream. And, my take, I don't know if you want to if we want to spoil that bag now, it might be an interesting way to go into the movie. You want to jump straight ahead to the end. Do you think I can? Yes. Spell it right. The way y w ends t the. What are you watching, Nick? Those still hot take which I have saved is our final category. So you are yet part of the hot take. I should have explained this as well. You're allowed to drop it on us at any time. You don't? That is a designated space for it. But you can drop at any time as long as you tell me when you're dropping it. So if you want to do it now, boom, it's going to be a tick, tick boom. I think Jesus Christ, I think this is the perfect way because if it's structurally is always towards the end, but this movie has no structure in the best possible way. Yeah, but but I but I do think that if I say this now, this might actually provide some nice context for the remainder of our episode. Sure. Now I have to. Now, like I've said this before, you know, with a lot of these hot takes, like this is a thing where some of them might not be as good as others because I've just seen this movie for the first time, I've only seen it once. I don't know how it's going to carry on this legacy, but I can say I don't know if it's the best, but the feeling that I have as of right now is this is one of, if not the best movies I've ever seen that has to deal with death. Whoa. Okay, here we go, here we go. This is. That's a great hot take. This is a theme of yours. Yes. I believe you really like a life lived. Looking back to me, this is a this is a story about death. About a guy who's not ready to die. Even though he's doing every single thing he can, is pushing it to the absolute limit to deal with your. And I think this because this movie is so full of life. Yeah. That, you know, from almost the very beginning that there's something bad that's going to happen and you can't really. Yeah, yeah. There's this overhead sense of dread, even though things are fun but there's less. It's not. Yeah. And and you don't want to see that dread. That was one of the most interesting feelings I've ever had. Where a beginning, a movie where I was like, something's going to happen to him and I don't want it to. And, and the only thing that it could possibly be because we don't know anything is death. Because death is the only certainty that we have in this goddamn fucked up world. And taxes is and, and so it's sort of like this guy's going to die, he's going to fucking die, and he's going to die to young, and he's going to die when I don't want him to. Like. So you're just sort of feeling like this, but then as it's going, it reveals itself with these scenes with Jessica Lange and there's this abstract idea of heaven and or and maybe not heaven necessarily, but the afterlife and what that could mean. And is there are some of those existential things he throws out there, but they're those are ideas that we have in our head anyways when we're living in the present. Am I good enough at this? Am I doing a good enough job? Nothing like a good father. Yeah, but it's very much spoken in the present. It's not. It's a it's part of the text. Yeah. It's not spoken from this idea of like, regret, or pondering of what could have been. It's a very much it's everything's living, but it's in the afterlife. And so when I, when I think about that idea of death, there's never been a movie that's kind of made me face it quite like this, where if I was to die today, like, that's what it is. It's not about the idea of death. It's about what if I was to die today? And this and everything that I'm doing every, it all goes away. And to have that live in a movie is I don't even know how you adequately communicate that. I think that's why this movie is flows and is edited and moves the way that it does, because there's no other way you can you can't make a kind of statement like this. Right. And so I agree with everything that you've just said. But then we also have to add the very important caveat that this isn't just a movie about death. And no, it's one at that. No no no no no wait no no no, I'm agreeing with you. I'm adding on to it. It's a movie about death directed by the guy who's telling his own fucking life story. Like exposing all of his demons. This. Yeah, it was him. Like it was just him. He was Roy Scheider. I mean, Joe Gideon is. This is Bob Fosse playing? It's like it's I don't know if I've ever seen a more honest, self-effacing, autobiographical film where nothing is held back. He is not glorifying himself at all. He's making himself look like how a lot of people thought of him womanizer, drug abuser, drinker, all this stuff. And it's it's really, really shattering. When you're watching it going, oh, this is all about this guy. Like all the affairs, everything. You have to admire that because it is not, hurry up. Tomorrow's in the theater right now. It is getting absolutely excoriated on the internet. People fucking hate this movie because it's all a giant project for the weekend, and that's all it is. It's not meant to be a narrative film. It's all just this. But I totally get when people are like, this is just an exercise in masturbation. He's just show it. Oh, all that jazz is the exact opposite. It's an exercise in. Yeah. I now am able to see how shitty of a person I was often. And here here's kind of my apology for it. I don't know, it's it's amazing. It's it's really astounding that someone could put their whole entire life on display like that and have it be indulgent. Yeah, that's that's what I was looking for. Yes. Indulgent is a perfect word. It's not an indulgent experience at all. At all it is. Is it? Matter of fact, it is the absolute definition of art. Yeah, it really is. Like you take all of the things that you know, that you have your own qualms about in this life, the things that you want to explore, the things that that like keep you up at night, the mistakes you've made, the, the all of it. But what I love about it too, is like, that's all there. Like everything from the womanizing to the health issues. But there's his relationship with his daughter that's strained. And and then to also because I think sometimes is, you know, this is where these things become indulgent because we as artists, I mean, we as humans, let's face it, we tend to always look at the negative. It's kind of just in our it's it's it's all kind of based in our survival mode. So you kind of listen to what the worst possible thing is. It's just that we've kind of started to internalize and then believe these things. But he does that. But he also puts in all of the joy, all of the good things that this man has brought to people, like all these women fucking love him. Yeah. And they did in real life. Yeah. And they didn't hate him and they loved it. You know, it was like the like his ex is after he comes up boom with that number, she's like, I hey, it's the best thing you've ever done, you son of a bitch. It's like he couldn't help itself. Yeah, and he's on apologetic. But people like, I think that's even harder to do in some ways. How do you actually put on display the the qualities about you as a person that everyone admires, loves and wants to be around and have like that? Kind of like I don't. That's nice that people want to see me like that, you know, however you want to take it. But to be like, nope, this is where I suck and this is where I'm glorious. And that is what we see here. It's just really something to begin on how we arrived at all that. Yes. How did we arrive here as part of the new Hollywood film project? The first round here. I picked our first round of movies that we're going to cover. And there there's one year that I still can't decide on it. We have to talk about it offline. But for 79, I went, all right, I definitely want to do this movie because I didn't I didn't know if you had seen it, but it's there's never a bad time to rewatch it. I had not seen it. I'd seen it. Another one I'd seen once in college. But I rewatched it like a few months ago, just because I had been wanting to. I actually bought it and then rewatch it when that was a good buy. So that helped inform this. And then when I told you 1979, all that jazz, you said you had never seen it and that's when I was like, well, hold on, buddy, because here we go. Here it comes. And sounds like your first experience watching it was the same as mine when I did not. I wasn't looking forward to it. It's just it's a movie that everyone spoke highly about. The opinions that I cared about directors, things like that. They all repped it really, really hard. So I'm hearing that I had similar experience, honestly, with Barry Lyndon, Lawrence of Arabia, stuff like that, where I'm on, I just don't think it's going to be for me, like these long movies. I'm not really interested in the time periods. Then you put them on and the movie wins you over right away. With all that jazz, I was like, I don't know if I've seen a movie that early, like in 79 cut like that. There are absolutely man with the movie camera, Russian movies where the editing is all crazy, but embracing the style of the repeating the events. There's a circular, you know, it keeps revolving of another intro, another intro, and it's Vivaldi. It's showtime, folks, and always feeling confident and it it just grabs you right away. The editing style. One of the Oscars this movie. One is editing, but it's time. It's. Yeah, yeah, it's it's just it's incredible when you're like when you're watching it. And yes, it is a lot to take because that opening sequence, the on Broadway stuff, you're like, is that. Yeah. Genuinely it's the whole thing going to be like this. Like it can I keep up? But when it pauses it, it's all right. Like it's it's always a good time to pause. Yeah. Take a little breath. The pauses are always really funny because there's that quote unquote Angel of death is just giving it right back to him and not taking any of his shit, and you have to catch up with it. Like, what are these cutaways? Why is he dressed as a clown now? What the hell? Who's this kid? Did this kid just like, what happened to him on stage in his pants? Like there's all this crazy stuff, and you just have to track it as it goes. And then by the end, you are given. What are we, about 20 minutes in? So, you know, I mean, we already have touched on it. Spoilers abound in these, you know, in these reviews. But I mean, it ends. The last shot of the film is him zipping up the body bag and just closing it dead. And it's like, boom, you're fucking dead, man. Yeah. You're great. You he has that great, wondrous closing number, the Bright Lights. He's fully healthy singing on stage. And then we get the what do we get, folks? We get the double dolly shot to him, going to the Angel of death years before spike Lee ever did it first. And it was ever referred to as the spike Lee double Dolly technique. See Roy Scheider on that double dolly going forward? Yeah, but it doesn't end in like, that glorious fashion. The last thing we see is boom, zipping up, and it's just so resonant. You go, whoa, wow. It's it's so important too, because. Oh yeah. Because like at that point you've kind of cling on to the abstract ness of this movie, like, yeah, it's very, very clear that that dolly shot is him going to death. Like, yeah, we've it's already been building. There's so much going on. This is what I think the thing when I saw that, I took my breath away. Yeah. That's what yes, it does like. And this is what I mean when I say it might be the best movie I've ever seen about death, because you could absolutely end that movie with that beautiful thing. And then it goes away big. You fade to black. You still get some of that joy celebration, celebrating the joy of life. You know, like that. We had a great time, dealt with some stuff here, but we had a good time. But that jarring reality is vital. I think, to like the yeah, the the completion of the movie. And because death is that it's here on this earth, death is final, it is done. And the people that are left are the ones who have to deal with this. And and that's a big part of this, because if it was just about this big number of him being dead, that is self masturbatory in a way, right, for this type of thing. But to also just be like, boom, I'm dead. And this is this body bag. Everyone else, my daughter, my ex-wife, my, my, my play, everything. They all have to deal with this. I really it's hard. I'm hard pressed to think of. I should have, you know, I prepped and done, like a list of movies about death, but very few are so autobiographical. Yeah. And I want to talk a little bit about this creator, this Bob Falsey, just really quickly. I mean, he's one of the most legendary figures of Broadway ever that ever lived. Born in Chicago, singing and dancing early, worked in burlesque clubs as a teen, which is shown and hinted at in here, and the abuse and harassment he faced as a result of growing up in those, you know, rooms, is captured really well in Falsey burden, which a lot of people listening to this, if you haven't seen all that jazz, maybe you saw the FX show Fosse Verdon. Yeah. Starring Sam Rockwell and Michelle Williams as his longtime partner, Gwen Verdon. And that was so fun to watch, too. I didn't rewatch it for this, but I just watched that once when it was airing live, and it captured his life really well, including all that jazz. But he becomes a Broadway performer quickly. It sounds like he wanted to become an actor, like a Fred Astaire type, and he's on Broadway. By 1950, he begins choreographing shows he's nominated for and wins his first Tony in 1955. He's not a song and dance man. He's quickly becoming the song and dance man. He becomes known as an obsessive, a bully, a charmer, an adulterer, drug abuser, drinker, cheater. All of that is gloriously captured in the film we're covering today. His film career. In total, he directed five movies. He won Best Director in 1972 for cabaret, beating Francis Ford Coppola for The Godfather, Pretty big deal at the time. And still today, yeah, still today. All That Jazz is his penultimate film, second to last one he made by what? Oh, what? Cabaret. Cabaret. Can't be farther. Come on now, people forget The Godfather. Cabaret one that year. Like it? It had more wins at the end of the year. The Godfather, it did win Best Picture, but it only had three wins. Godfather two did much better. Well, who's talking about cabaret today? A lot of people. A lot of people still talk about cabaret. Unfortunately, its first film, 1969, Sweet Charity, which I watched for the first time a few months ago and was thrilled to find out that it was a pretty tight remake of Fellini's Nights of Cabiria, which I, as I'm watching, I'm like, wait a minute. I definitely am familiar with this a little bit. So yes, that's that. Cabaret, 1972, a huge hit by what? Nick? Thanks, Lenny. In 1974, which is the film he is editing in All That Jazz, though, it's, you know, different type. Yeah, all that stuff, all that jazz in 1979 and its final film is Star 80. In 1983, one of the most controversial films ever made might come up later on this episode. Oh, Fauci in 1972, he did win Best Director. He also. So he won an Oscar and he won an Emmy, and he won a Tony, all for Best director in the same year for different projects. So you can imagine, though, that might go to someone's head and then they're doing all this crazy shit, and two years later they go, yeah, I can make a movie, a biopic about a really famous comedian and put on Chicago at the same time. Sure. No problem. It won't kill me. Won't kill me at all. Yeah. No, I mean, he he did Bob Fosse. He did have a heart attack, which is all, you know, all this stuff, like pretty a lot of what you see in the film happen. People have different names. Sure, but it's they're very, thin reimagining. So I'll just put it that way. This movie, All That Jazz, was written really quick. It was the last thing that this guy, Robert Allen Arthur wrote, and I wanted to bring him up because he was also responsible. He is credited for writing the dialog and John Cassavetes Shadows. So he's a guy. He's a big, big deal, big time writer. Big deal. So he and Bob wrote this together. All that jazz who had who had. There's no way Cassavetes had to have that one line, though. The big line from shadows. I never knew it could be that awful. I don't know, I don't know. We'll have to go back and rewatch. We'll have to do our research, the research, because it could be improv, too. That doesn't feel that, though. That's, you know, that's two that's that that feels very written. Yeah. That's that's all it says for though he's credited his as attributing dialog to shadows. But that's I mean that's he has a lot of other credits. But it felt appropriate to list that one given the context of this podcast. Well, it's on brand. It's our niche. It's a, it's a thing that we should represent. Yes. Your hot take for Marathon Man was Roy Scheider, the best actor of the 1970s, the Goat Loki, best actor of the 1970s. I said, yeah, sure, I'm on board with that. You had not seen all that jazz when you made that statement. You still haven't seen some of his big 70s ones. But yeah. How are you feeling about that statement now? Yeah, I agree, but it's, it's it's the it's the specific you have to say it. I can't say he's the goat I guess 1970s actor. But is the low key goat actor of the 1970s. Absolutely. That's he's like, one of the greatest character actors who displayed that range because even though all that jazz is a starring part, it's still it's this character performance. He's not. Roy Scheider was never trying to be some movie star. We're like, a movie could be sold on his name alone. He wasn't. He wasn't that. He knew how to adopt these really specific character roles and play them to perfection. I mean, all the time this movie does not work without him. Yeah, I agree, like you could apply this exact same type of crazy stylistic spectacle filmmaking, abstract act, and Bob Fosse's complete life on display. But if you do not have the right actor at that time to do this, there's something about Roy in here where, one his physicality. He he looks like he's a dancer. He looks like he's a choreographer. He's handsome, you can see like he, on paper, he has all of the qualifications that you would believe this guy, but it's there's some there's a spark in him that. Because it would be really, really easy. I Jack could not could never I would I have to say because like, Jack is too much of a brooding asshole like that. You could play this role that way because Jack is charming. But, you know, this character is very charming. But this guy is not an asshole. There's a kindness that's there. And. Yeah, and I. And there's a tenderness, even though he does all of these things. There's just a charisma that's unique to. It's seemingly Roy in this that I don't think could ever be duplicated. I was thinking about that. I was watching it. I was like thinking of all the actors in the 1970s, as I was watching all that jazz, and I was like, no one else could do this. No one else could do this. Yeah, okay. Do you think Richard Dreyfuss could do it? No. He was cast first. No, they fired it. They fired it because he was telling me he wasn't getting along with anyone. He was, I think, drives in. I don't ever think he's been the easiest person to work with. But he was also freshly off his best actor win. So the good bye girl in 1977. So I think he was feeling himself a lot. But yeah, he was cast first. They had not started filming. He it was a fired. I think it's best if I leave a situation. I think it was more casual in rehearsal. And then he looked for everyone. He went to Warren Beatty, he went to Jack, he went to Paul Newman. He went to all of them. Either they didn't have this or they didn't have that. They there was something that was missing. Bob Fosse I guess, at one point said, fine, fuck it, I'll do it myself. And the producer went, absolutely not like you will die. You cannot write, direct, produce and star in this movie like you can't. So someone pitches Roy it. You know Roy's around. Roy is a big actor and pitches it to him. And he did not know how to sing or dance. So that was going to be a tough sell. And then Falsey, quickly realized he can't do those things, but I can teach him enough of those things because he has everything else like he does. And it it's such unexpected casting, especially if you're a fan of Roy Scheider, which which we both are. He nothing else in the 70s lends itself to like that he's going to do this. He's playing pimps. Yeah. Cops. Cop, cop. I'm looking at his stuff down. You know, government agent marathon man is a desperate guy. Last embraces. It's like kind of this. You know, big. It's not action. It just ends with a cool action scene. But there was nothing like song dance leading star charisma that I don't think people. I think it shocked everyone. And I think it's widely considered we already ruined one, category. A lot of most people consider this his the best work of his career, of Roy Scheider, his career. And I don't know how you disagree. Like if you watch it and accept it, it's like there's nothing you still have to see. Sorcerer. He's great and sorcerer, but the star of sorcerer is about, frankly, William Friedkin. It's like that's his show and his exercise and his, like, putting the harshest aspects of filmmaking on screen and torturing his actors. But yeah, all that jazz, I think, is the the peak of Roy Scheider's career. He still went on to have a good career. He was in a lot of good shit, you know, seaQuest. But, I never he really, really hit here. And I kind of want to ask. I'll get your opinion on that. And I got to ask you something else, but yeah, I know in general, you think it's. It's best to am I? I absolutely do, yeah. I'm 100% correct. 100%. 100% correct. I, I know there is just I've never seen him like this, but it just felt so right. Like that's what they mean. Like, there's just something that that just bursts out of him that you can't take your eyes off of in a way that you've never seen him before. Like. Yeah. And even even down to some of, like, there's even a line where they where he's even saying it's like like, the it was one has like one of his inner voices is talking some negative thoughts to him. I think it's with Lenny the, the, stand up guy when he's in the hospital. In the hospital? Yeah. Yeah. He's like, how can you be with so many women? You're a little feminine, aren't you? And he, because of me, he's like, right. But you see that though. Like it really has everything. And it's just like, I, I have nothing but amazing things to say about Roy Scheider's performances. It was it. It was all that jazz, you know what I'm saying? Dog bark. Finally, I do. I got that joke. Did you get mine? Did you get the 100% thing? No, it's marathon man. The fuck what? The 100%? Am I right on that? Am I 100% correct? It's all Jesus Christ, see? Realized from it. Yeah, I'm 100%, now he gets it. I call that one a sneaker. Folks. All right, everyone I like. All right, thank you. Best actor 1979. I'm jumping right to it, I got it, I got to hit you with it. I got to do it. I don't think you've seen the China Syndrome, but it's good. China syndrome. Jack Lemmon, Al Pacino and justice for all, Roy Scheider, all that jazz. Peter Sellers being there. Oh, my God, he's so good in that movie. Who wins Dustin Hoffman Kramer versus Kramer. Yeah, I mean, that's that's the Dustin Roy showdown. You know, I remember I remember throughout the history of this entire podcast, I referenced Kramer versus Kramer, and I always give it high praise, and you always kind of like, look down or don't really have a lot to say. That's what it is. It's not that I look down, it's that I cautiously keep my mouth shut. I can expand, but yeah. Well, yeah, yeah. And, and, and I still like that movie. But I mean, now that I've seen this, this is nothing. Kramer versus Kramer is an excellent film and excellent, excellent, honest, bracing divorce movie like Meryl Streep is haunting in that film. Yes. The desperation of Hoffman going around town. I have to get a job on Christmas Eve, I believe is is thrilling. I'm getting chills talking about it. This is a great movie. However, that movie to me is not all that jazz, and it is not Apocalypse Now. So I am just putting the Oscar bullshit. This is my, one of my biggest flaws as a cinephile. Perhaps I'm putting all of my shit on it. It's the exact same thing the next year. I used to talk so much shit on ordinary People saw that once I was young, and then I went back doing this pod and rewatching went, this is a very, very good movie. It is. It is very honest. It is a very strong film. It, in my opinion, does not hold a candle to Raging Bull. That's just me. But and it's just, you know, if the Oscars didn't exist and I didn't have to worry about this shit, I just be like, hey, it's over here. But I don't know if Kramer versus Kramer needed all those accolades, but it's a whole other thing. But contextually, people were done with war. They didn't want it. They awarded The Deer Hunter the year before. They didn't want to keep awarding war movies. So I get it. That's why that wins. It's why ordinary people wins, yada yada. It's not a bad movie. It would might be fun for both of us to rewatch and not do a whole deep dive on it, but it could be a what are you watching? We could do like a five minute, ten minute review at the end of something on it, I don't know, I haven't seen it years. I mean, it is one of those things where if you didn't have like these awards that are, you know, because that's really what it comes down to is sort of like ordinary people, raging Bull, great movies could not be more different from each other. One wins, the Oscar one doesn't. But then over the course of time and everyone you know, you just start to kind of realize that it's why we always say, like, time is the best judge of everything. Now. It was cool though, is like, if you people still talk about Kramer versus Kramer, they do and they do, and people still talk about all that jazz and they still talk about Apocalypse Now. So that's honestly like a great lineup of great movies, because you have three vastly different movies that are all worthy of of that accolade. But I think, yeah, when you do see something like this, because when you look at, I suppose when you're people like us and I'm like, yeah, I mean, I'm not talking shit about Kramer versus Kramer. I like that movie a lot, but that's the most conventional one out of. Yeah. You're just checking those those ordinary people. Yeah. And so is ordinary people. And so you're talking about these movies that are taking these artful risks and doing something that's outside of the box, and that's not what's getting rewarded. What's getting rewarded is the I don't want to use this word more conventional. Yeah, more little safer stuff. But we're we're in 1979 right now. Jump go back to 1972. And the radical cabaret does win him best director. Like it. And the radical Godfather wins best picture I think by 79. Honestly, this phase, this new Hollywood right now in 1979, we are at the dead end of this new Hollywood phase. There's going to be a few more. I honestly consider Raging Bull a new Hollywood movie, and Heaven's Gate, but the studios have, by 79 caught wind that like, we're going to start making a lot of money off the jaws. Rocky made a lot of money and won the big award. Star Wars, like we're we're going for it. So you can feel that starting literally starting to shift now. It was it's basically 1977 when it breaks and you feel the shift. It's like those ten years from 67 to 77. So I get why they did it. And yes, while being a conventional movie crime averse Kramer still on us and it's still good. I'm not talking shit, but oh yeah, if I'm asked, I like I even like being there more than that. Being Hal Ashby, it's being there's a great film. It didn't get nominated for picture, but it is a fantastic film. Hal Ashby. Yep. God damn it. You know, we got to do one on him. We got to do it about. Yeah. We do. Yeah. Are you guys I yeah I got, I gotta take on that one too. Okay. Well I can't say it now. It'll ruin it. Okay. Yeah. He's a hint hint folks. Hint, hint I'm so excited for that one. Jesus Christ. Yeah. Oh, that's going to be fun. Yeah. Can we talk about the Slugger's Wife from 1981, directed by Hal Ashby. He be his wife watched? No, it's just called the Slugger's Wife. It's. He didn't even beat his wife. Hal is a pretty, pretty the chillest of chill men. It sounds like the chill. Chill. Yes. Roy Scheider, we love him. Few. He has a few from the 70s that I myself haven't seen. Can you believe it? One called get these titles. This is. I'm just going to say two movie titles right here. Puzzle of a Downfall Child sounds great. Say Dunaway poster is really cool. Oh, sounds like your kind of title. Yeah. Sheila Levine is dead, and Living in New York is another movie. You said in the 70s that I got to see. You still really have to see Klute from 1971. He is a pimp in that he's fantastic. And sorcerer, which I know is on your long list of films to see to break through your Friedkin List universe. We're almost there. We're almost there. Yeah, you got a few more. There's one scene that I want to bring up that I really love because I know we're just jumping around, so, we're getting to understand throughout a lot of the conversations in the afterlife, that's the way that I look at it to me, like everything that he talks about with Jessica Lange. Yeah, purgatory after whatever it is. Yeah, it feels like a purgatory, like, hey, before you. Yeah, quote unquote go up or down here, we're just talking about stuff however you want to look at it is. But it's not like real. He didn't actually go like talk the. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And you and you understood to me I understood it immediately. Good, good. Which is a testament to I think the production design like like like if that all of a sudden gives it away that, hey, this is not really based in a reality. This is a much more internalized world that we're here. At the very least, it's even like the a little like fuzzier with the cinematography. I mean, in a good way. Like, yeah, another art direction slash production design, another Oscar one. That was another one. And it also, it makes me think of when Gwen is asking him about the blond that he stayed with, and he can't remember her name. And then it turns out to be Dorothy. I don't know if that's the same person, but to me that I always sort of like, oh, I wonder if this is like, this is one of Roy Scheider. Bob Fossey, Joe Gideon's flames that he like, really, really like that stuck with him. And now he's spending this sort of purgatory with her because there is a comfortability that they have with each other. That is not like how he is with anyone else. Like it's it's very, very interesting. Keep playing. Paul, that you can't either. Quick, tell me, what was the name of the girl in Philadelphia? The blond with the television show. About the television that one of the television shows. Love it. I remember that girl's name. I remember that girl's name because that girl meant something to me. The blond, the television show. Her name was sweet. Honey. Baby, I can't remember her name. Dorothy. Dorothy? Who cares? I can't remember her name. But in those scenes is when he divulges some of his flaws. And one of his flaws is the way that he throws around the word love. And he and he and he talks about love in a way where he's like, I don't really know where the bullshit ends. And the truth begins. He goes, I tell women I love them. Maybe because I do, I think I do, but also because they need to hear it and they and they deserve to hear it. Like there's so much like these things. And but the one time that he uses it in a scene that I, it blew me away was when he's with I don't even know which girlfriend it is. There are a lot of women in the show there. There are a lot of women, but this seems to be the one that he is girlfriend boyfriend with. It's the one who walks in on him when he's with another girl in the bed. Oh, it's a girl. One who? Yeah, dude, dance with his daughter. With his daughter? Yeah. So that real quick. That is an Erin King Ryan King playing herself. This is the Margaret. Margaret Qualley. That's crazy. So. And he made her audition for it a bunch of times like that, but so she is essentially playing a version of herself. Yeah. So if you saw Falsey Virden. Yes. That's the the Margaret Qualley part. Yeah. Isn't that great? I love her in the movie, I love her, she's so good. Yeah. And it makes total sense that that he would put her through all that auditioning process. Yep, yep. In the scene she's testing him. She she just wants to be his like she just wants to be in this relationship with him. And he's doing the whole entire thing. His his Joe Gideon thing. And then she tells him that she has an opportunity, a career opportunity to go away. Yeah. And do something great. I forgot exactly what is it? Is a show or is a play or was a traveling? It's a show. Yeah, I think it's a show. Now all of a sudden for Joe Gideon, he is now threatened with the idea of this girl who he could easily replaced with another one. But this is where his selfishness comes out, is like, oh, I don't really want to be in a relationship with you, but I don't want you to leave. So I'm going to kind of manipulate the fuck out of you right now. And and that's what he does. Yeah, yeah. And this is when he's saying about like, how do you feel about love? He goes, I use it as a, as a way to get what I want here, basically. And the way that he says it is like, listen, all right, you know, I love you. And if this is really what you want to do, and that's the first that this is how he says it to her. Listen, you know, I love you, all right? Like so if you're going to do this, then that's, you know, that's your thing. You believe in love. I believe in saying I love you, helps you concentrate. Joe, it asked me to go on tour with the show long six months. What do you think? And you say it all the time. I say a lot, a lot when? When it works. You know I love you, Katie, but I think you have to do what's best for you. Just. What do you mean, Joe? Sometimes it doesn't work. I mean, for your sake, I think you should go and. And all of a sudden, you see her, and she's like. And then he leaves. He goes to the bathroom. Yep, yep. And then lets her sit with this. And then and then she's sort of like, tells him more like how? Like she could be with another guy and she's got a date that she's about to go on. And then he basically just gives her this whole entire thing and tells her to stay. And she goes, is that what you want? And he goes, yes, I want you to stay. And she stays. She fucking stays. She cancels everything. She doesn't go on this tour. She doesn't go out with this other guy. She stays for him. And I, I, I, I there's just something about the way that that scene is written played and what it's actually doing. And it's all within like three minutes that I was like, this is this is wild. This is wild stuff right here is that when she calls the guy and he's like, how dare you call us? Yeah. Yes. You call this straight man from my first. Yeah. How dare you call the straight man for my phone? Yeah. That's another reason why I love the movie. It is showing Bob falsies flaws in great display. This expert manipulator who just openly admits. Oh, yeah, I toss around that four letter word to use to my advantage. That's fucking horrible. That's horrible. And but then he says another thing that I thought was beautiful in this afterlife scene, you can tell like this Jessica Lange is bad because they don't give you, like it's the only way that you could kind of ascertain it for yourself is like they're playing a game, like a word association. Yeah. And and she just goes women and and then he takes this pause and he has this look on his face. It, it's so pure and true. And he just says hope. Yeah. And I was like, oh man. That is like that's what that's this guy. That's this guy who uses love as a manipulation. But then deep down in his bones is like, women are everything. Like they're they're the joy of the life. They're they're everything. And it's just I love two things can be true at the same time. And, Yeah, one of the best things Falsey Verden captured just with its title alone, is how important Gwen Virden was to his life. Yeah, they were together for a very long time. He did. He was a, you know, he was an adulterer. He screwed around a lot. And in this film, there's so many scenes of him, like even the first sequence, the on Broadway scene where he's running out into the crowd and talking to that. Yeah. The woman, the actress Leland Palmer playing stand in for Gwen Vernon, you know, just look good. Look, okay, Roy Scheider says that while they were filming that scene, Bob Fosse was doing the same thing, like running to the back and asking Gwen Burton, who was there, like, does this work? So it was it was literally life imitating art right there, like on the day. And I love that that it captures their relationship so well to this movie and all that jazz. You know, it's the best thing you've ever done, you son of a bitch. And she storms out like she's, She's so good and he's so good with the kid, too. And, Yeah. Kind of the way, like, he makes the promise to hang out with her, I can. I got to rush off. I got to go edit. I got to go to work, and then we see him have the beat at the door. Some fucking father. But it doesn't go back, you know, he goes to cut the damn this endless monologue that he can't cut down. Yeah, yeah, he's just going, going, going. There's so many different things, but I, I really love that scene to that argument that they have and, and even talking about like that the stand up to Lenny Lenny Bruce stuff. I mean what a beautiful way to show that here is this like perfectionist, this guy that's like working on this one thing. And the only thing we ever see him working on is this monologue, when it just so happens to be this metaphor for the Diana Kubler-Ross stages of grief and, you know, all sort of having to do not with grief, but of death. And, and, and it's just that's why this thing is orbiting this, this idea of it. And he can't get it out of his head. And I even love the doctor because he, the doctor puts it so well where they've operated on him and he, is still smoking, he's still partying. And then the one doctor in like, the lecture hall is like, it seems to me that this man just has, does not care at all about his own life. Yeah. And but then the the doctor is like, I could understand how you can see that, but I think it's actually quite the opposite. I think he cares so much that it terrifies him. Yeah. And that's really, really what we're having for the rest of this is like, and that's why we get those things where I don't know, man. Sometimes there's no more vulnerable line that anyone could ever have in any sort of movie. When they say, like, I just don't want to die. And and he says that when he's in at some point when he's hooked up to these machines and, and like, that's the only time it could ever come out. It's just there's so much complexity and flaws and everything all within this complete collage of a fucking movie. It's it's fucking great. So good. I mean, we're talking about favorite sequences like, yeah, obviously those intros, all those quick speech. Oh yes, are so good. Yeah. But then that, I mean, there's a lot of, you know, musical numbers in it, rehearsal, rehearsals, things that we've talked about the don't. Yeah. It's hard to call them like musical numbers, more like sequences because the on Broadway thing, they're not like they're rehearsing or they're trying out. They're auditioning. But that is I love that sequence in setting that tone so much. I actually I timed some of the sequences. That was eight minutes. What I would love to do, and this is my original thought. I sat down and I'm like, you know, I'm going to do full on Broadway. I'm going to count every cut and I can. So as count, I just couldn't do it. I would have to I'd have to pull it into my editing software and go by frame because it's just so many, but it never loses you. And it's crazy how if you go and rewatch it, it's it's not even cut for continuity. Like, no, it's not like it's whittling down throughout the day. It does throughout the eight minutes. It whittles it down, let's say from 100 dancers to four. But it doesn't go from like a hundred to 50 to 20. It's just all bouncing around. And you feel this crazy energy in him telling people, no, you're not good enough. Sorry. And we're getting these great cutaway lines of of the women in the stairs. I love them so much. Oh, fuck him. He never picks me. Yeah, I did fuck him. And he never picks me either. Going up and flirting with them was like, I tell you, you get a part. He's so I love Roy Scheider so much. And he he looks and acts like Roy Scheider in a lot of the movies. He talked about French Connection, Marathon Man, I forget, I just think I'm watching Bob Fosse at times when I watch, so him, the dangling cigaret, the ceaseless dangler just never goes out of never leaves sight. He's always has one. I love that sequence. I mean, it might I don't know, we're going to get to it, but it might be my favorite sequence in the movie. Honestly, those first, it just boom, it hits you. There's not another musical sequence for 45 minutes. That's when that rehearsal with all of them, you know, take off with us when all the clothes are coming off. And that was really telling to me, because they have this half hour of it's not like it's, you know, slow at all. It's just that's when we're getting to meet everyone. But then there was that gap about a half hour gap, I think. Yeah, I said for it's 46 minutes in 45 minutes in. So there's a about a half hour between performances and I that was interesting to me because it closes with like a half hour straight of performances. So you're still getting like all this stuff. But yeah, I mean the editing style, that's what really grabs me most. I mean, just thinking about how hard it was to make an editing cut on film, it was not easy. I can do it in point five seconds right here. Click I, I so appreciate that. I love this on Broadway sequence. It's amazing to see, like, how many things have taken from this to oh yeah, I mean that's part of the legacy as well. But there's yes, there's a lot of things that have ripped from this. There's even a, and this is so funny because this is just very telling of my tastes. But there's a lot of Californication. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, Joe Gideon in this and Hank Moody and Californication. There's, like, this sort of. They ignore the bad and choose the good. Yeah. So even when something is happening, they they opt to live in the humor or the fun. That's really what it is. It's the fun. They choose the fun. And there's just something so irresistible about watching that, being around those people. Yeah, I'm there is the show, billions. And they did it. Oh yeah. Episode where a side character, this guy wags great actor. It was doing that they they were cutting it the intros. He was looking going Showtime folks and Alka-Seltzer and all that stuff because he was partying a lot. Yeah. There I mean, I don't even there's a whole section on its Wikipedia page of areas. It's been referenced. I haven't even seen some of those. And I bet they're missing a lot, too. It's a extremely influential movie. I think the most influential he made, despite cabaret being such a success. I think all that Jazz is the Bob Fosse movie that lives on the most, and we got to talk about that one scene right before he has the heart attack, where they remove the sound that I do. You're going to love that. Yep. I knew you're going to love that. I, I literally put in Motown that that when they cut all the sound out and you can just. I mean that right there is an Oppenheimer when he's giving the speech like there and you can't, okay. It's not like all that jazz did at first. I'm sure we can find other examples. But of course, of course, know that Nolan has seen that movie and that scene resonated with him. And it has to be a bit. It just has to be in his mind a little bit. But God, I love that. Just eat there at a table read and he everyone begins and there's laughter, but he we don't hear anything. We just see it. Yeah. Him looking at all of it and he looks so like over it. Yeah, it's like it's a combination of so many things where it's, it's there's there's this animosity with Gwen, that character, because clearly in that scene, she is like, like antagonizing the little bit, like, are you here for this, Joe? Like, like or like this is an important day. Are you fucking ready? And he doesn't give a shit. Yeah, no, he just sort of like. All right, everyone, we're gonna have this table. We all know how these things go. Everyone just tell me what I need to do. And. And then everything drowns out is only the movements he makes. But there's so heightened. I mean, there's just no better way to kind of get into the head space is someone that I think sometimes would sound like there's so much you can play with. And like when you see all that, it just has your attention, like every little thing. And even when he breaks the pencil behind the chair and then that also signifies that he's just had a heart issue. Yeah, yeah. He's like, I mean, there's just so much, and it's just it's all fucking great. Like, it's just there's so much here in terms of the art of filmmaking. But then like to your point, like for this Bob Fossey human being to put their entire life on display in this way is just that's just astounding. I want to go back and watch Fox Verde now. I do too, actually, I do too. This. Yeah, I think all that jazz is covered in like seven, eight, nine, those episodes. Maybe that's too many. Maybe it's just one. Speaking of tick, tick boom. Lin-Manuel Miranda plays him in plays. Roy Scheider playing Joe Gideon playing Bob Fossey. And that is yeah, that's funny. That's really, you know, another movie, has a sound go out. I was, rewatching it. Nora. And when they when they cut to the car, when they're showing up to the airport to meet the parents, sounds all the way out. Yes. That was that was organic. It was organic. Nora will not die. Oh, will it not just you. Wait, folks. I thought you were gonna say. There I go, there I go to on. There I go on the mountain sound gives all that jazz took it for me. They took it for me. Can you believe it? Me, Nick? Those though? Yes. From there I go. Like. Yeah, from the future. Yeah, I love it. I love, I love when they are cross-cutting that real surgery that was an actual surgery that they filmed. I hate it's so hard for you to watch. I just saw Final Destination. I don't know the number. Bloodlines. Fucking awesome movie, awesome movie. That stuff I can kind of handle. It's still like, but when it's real, like killing of a sacred deer, I don't know. Oh, yeah. It's tough for me. Soderbergh. Loves that shit, man. Really loves, like like surgery. Wall in the neck. Yeah. The nick is like, God knows that. It's in everything. He does it all the time. They're very quick, but I'm telling you. Contagion side effects. There's another one he throws in like these. Very, very. He does like his gooey inserts. Yes. They're inserts. They're very quick, but they're, they're they're sort of like, Jesus Christ, we just need to see that. It's awesome. It it's we'll bring that up again later. I think Soderbergh we might I've already teased that. Excuse me. Dammit. I've already. That was fucking rude. Usually I could edit it out, but, I'll. I'll leave it. I'll leave it. I love there in. No, seriously, during that real surgery, I that it cross cuts. The guys in the suits like talking. If he dies, we'll actually make more of a profit off the insurance. You know, you could be the first show on Broadway to make a profit without ever really opening. And it's hilarious. And it's so, satirical quite simply. Here are the options one. If Mr. Gideon recovers and you resume production within the 180 days, we are not liable for any part of it to. If Mr. Gideon should die and you're resume production with another director within the 180 days, we are still not liable. Three however, if Mr. Gideon should expire before February 1st and you abandon production, we are liable for the $4 million. This means, gentlemen, you could make a profit of.$519,500. You could be the first show on Broadway to make a profit without really opening. And you. I'm so glad you brought that scene up, because I think I would have forgot it that way. That that final, shot of him dying with the body bag actually makes it even more because you know that that's what happened. Yes, yes. Like the world, the business world is going. I never thought about that. Yeah. I never really put that together. Like that scene actually comes true. Yep. Jesse. That's true. Yeah. Yep. And and then you realize that it comes true for all the wrong, stupid reasons that we've kind of made as a society in terms of money. It's sort of like, oh, assurance money. Yeah. All of a sudden this guy dies and so does art, but people make money off of it. Like it's just it's just an extra little thing to like, oh, this is our world. This is the reality. This is the starkness of it. Yeah, yeah. I love I mean, that's a really good point. I, I never really connected those dots, but yeah it's hilarious. You're welcome. Yeah. Thank you. I'm the one that fucking brought it up. Yeah. Oh there was a it's a really good line. I always, I always like to kind of Oh. There's actually one that's cracked me up. It's the first time that we're seeing the, the cut of the the, Stand up. Yeah, yeah. We've already seen Roy hit on the blond editor girl, but then in in the first cut, like, they're asking questions and and and and Roy asks, he goes, what do we all think? And then Stacy, she says it and he goes, who asked you? Stacy. Got that far? He's like, Jesus, man. He just snaps that are. But there's also a really great line that says this. And I think this is actually a big, you know, this is one of those on the nose, lines where it just kind of refers to the overall intention and theme of the movie is we'll take you everywhere, but get you nowhere. Yes. Like a lot. And then the only other thing, honestly, that I kind of have is just that bye bye life. That moment of where you're actually in it and you're about to just say goodbye to living like you're done. Like this. Is it like. And he looks so healthy. Like when he's performing, like it's the healthiest. We see him in the movie. Yeah. And that's. And then it's shot so. Well, like, it's shot cut so well and it is like that is like one of those moments where like, you have no choice but to celebrate it. Like if you're if you're on death's door unexpectedly or this is it and you have that time in your head or whatever it is, it's sort of like, well, this is it. This is my goodbye. Let's, let's make a thing out of it. And there's so much joy. But then there's this underlying reality that's behind it. It's of sadness. Like even in the dolly shot, it's sort of like, Yeah, well, it's an acceptance you can accept. Well, that's in there you go. He gets to acceptance with it. Exactly, exactly. Anger. Denial. Bargaining, depression. Acceptance. Sounds like a Jewish law firm. I love that that guy I do, since you brought him up so, that guy, that actor's name is Cliff Gorman. And from what I understand, he put on originally like, a Lenny Bruce one man show, and that's who Fauci wanted to cast in the movie. But Halston was a big star, so they cast Hoffman in it. But then he cast this Gorman guy and all that jazz. So that's, you know, it's kind of helping his friend out again, which I like. And that guy is great. I like that he also shows up at the hospital and he's just like staring is he's getting a massage. She's just kind of like disapproving of him. They, the, lost in the comedians, from what I understand, don't really like that movie. Because. Lenny. Yeah, it's very true. Yes. That is very true. Yeah. There's there's an idea where it's sort of like when you talk about actors, like, okay, if there's an actor who can do comedy, they could probably do drama, that type of thing. A stand up comedian could be a good actor, but an actor doesn't really transition very well all the time to stand up comedy. Like if they're coming from that profession and trying stand up comedy doesn't really work very well. Where as a standup comedian, transitioning into an actor could actually do that, I don't know. I don't know exactly how the how that works, but that's a consensus that I've yet to be in and it would be fun. I've only seen Lenny once. It's sometimes it's on Prime. That's where I saw it, but it's black and white. Dustin Hoffman supposed to be a biopic of sorts of Lenny Bruce. It's told a bit out of order, and if you watch the scenes from all that jazz of Cliff Gorman doing it, and then you go watch Lenny, there's a stark difference in the delivery. And yeah, like Dustin Hoffman can get the dramatic stuff, but he doesn't get the stand up comedy part. And that's kind of a big deal for playing Lenny Bruce. It's a big deal. Yes, it it's thank you. It's got to be funny. Got to be funny. You got to be funny. Ha ha I don't I just don't want to end our general discussion without at least talking about take off with us, which is the full rehearsal, or at least mentioning them. Everything old is new again, which is that great girlfriend daughter dance that makes him cry. You're forcing me to pick a number. You want me the number? You want me after you've gone with the ex, the girlfriend and the daughter. It sounds like you like bye bye life. Probably that performance the best, actually. No, no, I was wrong. I, I love, like, the naked ladies. I mean, I, I, I think I'm actually going with the naked ladies and naked ladies and it looks like Requiem for a dream, you know? Yeah. It's just it's, it actually is a very, very. I did not expect it. And yeah, it just kept, like, doing things. It was so crazy. And I go, oh my God, what is this? So I think and also because like it's so out of character for the movie. Yeah. Like the, the like that that movie gets to a little bit of like a, like you don't see dark in the movie. Like you don't see a lot of blacks. Really. That's true. To kind of give that type of performance in an otherwise sort of, brightness. I really like that. He just threw everything at this. So I think that would be my favorite number. I think we lost the family audience. Yeah, exactly. Yes we did. It's, it's interesting thing. That's all they say. It's it's. There was another word to it. I was like, it sums it up. It's like everyone always says, like, the two words that you never want to hear in art are when someone's like, it's interesting or like, unique. Yeah. It's a tough interesting is a tough, word of praise because, yeah, they're just trying to be nice usually. Yeah. Cinematographer. This is kind of cool because his first movie was a remake of a Fellini film. His cinematographer for this movie is Giuseppe Rotunno. Sorry. He shot the set. Fellini, Giuseppe. Yeah. Shot films for Fellini. Also shot, among other things, Carnal Knowledge, which he mentioned on this part. And then I said was impossible to find. Then we got the criterion update and they were like, hey, it's coming out. So I, I actually I was going to pose this to you. We're going to end the first round of this of the new Hollywood project with 1971, because we soft started with French Connection without the intention of doing a series. So we're going to end with 1971. And I either want to do Klute, because that would give us a chance to talk about Alan J. Pakula, who I love. Or we can do Carnal Knowledge. No, it's also 1971 Klute. Know what? Oh, okay. Klute, you've already said it. I've already banked on it. All right. Fine. Klute. Yes, I love Alan J. Pakula. We call this behind the scenes folks. Great cinematographer. The film was directed by editor sorry. The film was edited by editor Alan Heim. Heim spelled different from Our Ladies. Spelled a little different with an E. Not in any. That's okay. He plays himself in the movie, is the editor with the extremely bushy eyebrows. Also does a very good commentary on the criterion disc that I love listening to. He won an Oscar for this film. Other works include. Other editing works include editing Lenny that this is this is a no slouch resume. Lenny network. Hair. Star 80. Dennis the Menace 1993. Yes, I'm Walter Matthau, American History x The Notebook. Holy shit, he said in his commentary. His two favorite directors to work with were Bob Falsey and Nick Cassavetes, and he's cut a lot of movies for Nick Cassavetes Notebook, Alpha Dog, I don't know. Nick Cassavetes is not get the credit he deserves. Damn right. Shout out. Yeah, who else is seen My Daughters Keepers? That was called I know I'm Not My sister. I think My Sister's Keeper, my sister's Jason Patric. Yeah, like Patrick. It's like one of his last roles in a, you know, studio movie. He's had Cameron, Cameron Diaz, Cameron Diaz, very good in it. Bald cap. Probably one of my favorite drum acting performances from her is actually. I'm not joking. No, I was just I was going to say Vanilla Skyline, but it's too filthy to say I can't do it. What? You four times means something. Well, it's actually I swallowed your blank. That means oh is right. She swallowed his self-indulgent spirit. That's what she did in that film. His essence. What a fucking movie that is, man. With her. I mean, we got the new Mission Impossible coming out, so a lot of people are talking about cruise, that performance. Like we didn't know what he's never going to do. I can't believe he did it. And it was his idea. I can't believe you ever do something like that again. He had that like, that's nuts knowing that we know about him now that he did that. That's my favorite Tom cruise performance. It's right up there. It's number 43. I mean, I like that, I like Maguire, I love collateral, Magnolia, Magnolia I love oh my God, I love Magnolia. It's tough, but I mean, you won't get eyes wide shut. I love you won't get any argument from me if you're like, no, that's his best vanilla Sky. It's just because. Exactly. For that reason, it's that you've never. I can't believe we're doing a little side quest on this really quick, but I remember I rented that movie around the time it came out because it came out in 2001, so I like it was one of my blockbuster high school movie nights. Sure. And no idea, and didn't know it was a shot for shot remake, basically with no cruise. No, it's not it's it's not a shot for shot. No, it's way bigger than like that doesn't have the it has none of the pop culture of it. All right. Those it's very okay. And the genesis is there but it's there's no time square shit. There's no Radiohead or anything. It's not. Oh okay. No. So would you, would you prefer Cameron Crowe's over. It depends what you want on if you want a nice, sensible European version of it, it still has the mask and all that stuff. Yeah, but if you want a radically Americanized pop culture, it's like a pop. It's like a slice of pop culture Americana that also lives right in the shadow of 911. They made that movie for 911, but that movie was released just a few months after 911. And I'll tell you folks, it was fucking weird to see that opening with Times Square empty, because that's what 911 looked like. That was there. Yeah, that. And you know, and so it had this completely different. It resonated in a completely different way. He left it up in the beginning in the background, the Twin Towers. Yeah, it was a big deal. It was a it was a huge deal. All that stuff. So it it's the cheap, lazy American thing for me to say I like vanilla Sky better. I do like, I like Radiohead, I like, you know, but it's still the original, still very good. And it's awesome that Penelope Cruz is in both. That's really. Yeah. And I remember watching it and I just remember not knowing it anything about the movie. And then you're following like this story at the beginning and I'm like, oh, this is I like this. This is like weird, but kind of like it's charming. And I've really loved this relationship between everyone here. But then the movie just does what it does. Yep. And I was like, wait a second. This is become something that is. And Tom cruise is doing this. Yeah. Like and at that time Mr.. Like you know, beautiful face man. Movie star Tom cruise is putting himself up here like this. I mean, meow meow. I mean that that is like, look, the fucking face Single-Use. Oh my God, that is the riskiest performance he's ever done. Biggest or best I don't know. But that is he's never taken a risk like that again. Tropic Thunder isn't a risk. It's funny. He's hiding, you know, makeup. It's not. It's not a risk. It's great. I love him and it's great, but this is like, man. Yeah, I don't, you know that that he had that great stretch like Eyes Wide Shut Magnolia, vanilla Sky. Those are some crazy performances from him. Like crazy that he would do that. We can do a cruise pilot anytime. It was the 2015 John Cena that was like. That was when John Jack was actually in the best of his actual wrestling with United States title run putting on the back what I was thinking. That's wild. Yeah, the new Hollywood categories for all that jazz similar to talk about that vanilla Sky because vanilla Sky is obviously like an autobiography of Tom cruise. Number one, what a sense. What what is your what is your favorite thing that makes this a new Hollywood movie? All that jazz. The cutting of editing of this is so European and so just not American style in terms of that. Even though like, we've already seen a lot of different, you know, editing choices throughout this decade, but nothing really quite like this all the way through. So I think by, by bringing this type of style into your entire feature length film is gotta be something that it's like, all right. We're, we're we're recognizing and endorsing something this radical in terms of its editing that we really wouldn't see again until like the 90s. Like the 80s. Yeah. I mean, there may be a few examples, but not at this level. Not that's I mean, I don't want to talk out of turn, but an American movie getting nominated for Best Picture with that editing style in the 80s, I don't know, I'd have to go through a mall. Nothing is coming to mind. And that is the same thing I had to. I had the unrelenting pacing and structure of it that yeah, so aligned is this director's best film. How about the person who's seen no. Is this the director's best movie? Because you're. This is I said, yeah, cabaret. Is that next cabaret? Yeah. You would that cabaret would not be for you. It wouldn't. Yeah. Nor would sweet Charity. I've seen all of his films. Yes. This is my favorite. It is. Well, well, I mean, we kind of already spoiled this one. Is this Roy Scheider's best performance? It's not easy for me to answer. I don't arrive at this. It takes a little thought, but yes, it is. And yes, low key. Go to actor of the 1970s. What happened to them? I'll go first. Leland Palmer I, I don't know if I had ever heard of her, though. I'm very familiar with a name as a Twin Peaks fan. The Twin Peaks fans will understand what I'm saying. She was a Tony. She was a Tony nominated performer. She was in Fosse's Pippin and All That Jazz is the only movie I've seen her in, and she's great playing, essentially Gwen Burton. She not called that, but I thought she was great in this. And her takedown of him when she does the number. Yeah. And he's like trying to figure it out. And then the names like you're talking about. No, not her, not her. Yeah. And then taking him down like it's the best thing you've ever done, you son of a bitch, is I just love her and I don't. I don't know who that is. I've never seen her again. Never seen her then form before or after in my life. All right. Is that your pick for what happened to them? What do I got to do? What have I got to pick? Yeah. What do you want? Me? It's the categories. So we each pick what happened to them. We. We each answer these for ourselves. Do you think I just answer these? And you're supposed to agree with all of them. Favorite quote. You just go, yeah. That's it. Well, I mean, I suppose I really don't really wonder too much what happened to them, because I know Jessica Lange. I know what happened to Bob fossil. Bob. No. What happened to her? What happened to the daughter? Okay. Who? You mean the person who plays the daughter? The human being. Is this supposed what I should I was I supposed to do this? Yeah. You're supposed to look look her up and then be like, look there. Okay? She was in this and this, and that's. Yeah, that's how it works. Call that research? Favorite scene or shot? I kind of said it was my. It was on Broadway. I love that sequence. I think it's insane and sets the tone perfectly. And you're like, oh, okay, we're doing this. This is what we're doing for this movie. I love that. And you kind of said, you know, you're naked. Well, that's my favorite number. That's my favorite number. All right. If you ask me, my favorite scene, I think my favorite my favorite scene is, the, the sound removal. Yeah. The table read. That's great. Yeah, yeah. Favorite quote A lot of the 70s movies were doing have that one really famous line and all that jazz. It is. It's showtime folks. It's a great one. Can't write like hard to compete with that. Here's another one that's a little crude. I just wish you weren't so generous with your cock. That's pretty funny. Yeah, I love that line. Pretty telling. I don't know when the bullshit ends. And the truth begins. Women dat dat dat hope. And then finally, who asked you? Stacy. Yeah, it gets so. Matt. I love what he's in bed with. Veronica. And then Katie walks in, wakes up. He's like, I told her I would call her. I'm so busy. Just forgets, like, he he's not he's so busy. Forgets how to be a proper shithead. So it's. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And then I look at he's, like, peeking at her boobs. Yeah. He's like, it looks like, this is all right, then. What a dog. Forget to be a proper shit. And, I love that we covered the AIW, and it was a great take. That's right. It's a great place. Right? And they always are. Yeah, always. Oh, wait, wait. Tickets. Wait. You get to the next one we got. Okay. I'm excited for that one. It's not even a little bit of a tease for there. Oh, there we go. I can't oh, boy. Can't wait to hear what that is. Oscar nominations I'll go through them quickly. Nine nominations. That's a lot for a movie we're covering in the series. It won four. It was nominated for picture. Lost to Kramer. Kramer. Same director. Lost to Robert Benton. Kramer versus Kramer. Same with actor. Also Dustin Hoffman Chris Kramer screenplay. Lost two. Breaking Away cinematography lost to Apocalypse Now. That's fair. It won score adapted because they used to split them up. It won costume design, art direction and editing. Great wins. It had to win editing, there's no question. Had to. There's no justice in the world if it doesn't. But same with like like ordinary people didn't win editing fucking Raging Bull did. Selma. Yeah that's right, because I know they recognize recognized they know. What do you watch? It always knows. Editing knows new this year didn't it. You know one this year folks. That's right Sean Baker. Nora. Yes that's right baby did it. I'm doing something a little bit different today. I'm, I appreciate that. I'm going with a what are you reading recommendation. Oh, wow. That's right. Up and up. He's opened up the books, folks. Am I going to get I mean, poetry today? I mean, yeah. Well, so I, I'm currently rehearsing a scene from this play, and I cannot I want you to read this play. I think you're going to love it. It's a recent play. Let's see. It's came out in 2012 or 2011. So around there. So and you know, in the world of theater this is pretty this is pretty pretty recent. And I think it's been up for a lot of different things. It's called Other Desert Cities by John Robin Bates. Cool. And I in the, the writing is so rich and infused from these characters that it reminds me of something like A Long Day's Journey Into night. Wow. There's a very, very rich family dynamic that exists here where the thing that I'm spellbound with is that every single person in this play, in some degree, is right in their point of view, even when they're those points of views are grounded in something that might not be in the best place. And at the same time, they're all wrong. And to me, this is where, like, the best art lives is when you're. And this is like there's I think there's like six characters and every single one of them is right and wrong all at the same time. And dealing with the level of, truth that I'm finding with my scene partner, we're seeing that a lot of people put this on his comedies, and there's a lot of humor in it, but as you know, is someone with, like, you know, a family background that, has a lot of tragedy. You don't ever just play the tragedy you like. You can't, you know, you can't live in there. I know one thing for me that my family does is that they ground a lot of our tragedy into cynicism and sarcasm, and that is where a lot of our humor lives. And we will talk about things that are quite tragic, but we'll be laughing when we talk about them. And it's just very clear, like the writer realizes that this family talks a certain way about a lot of this stuff, and it's all in the writing. Like, this is one of those plays where it's been a long time since I've read a play where there's not one wasted word, there's not anything in here, but it doesn't come off like that at all. Like it's just completely authentic, completely truthful, and so much more deeper than it actually seems like it is. So that's my recommendation. In one go to find Samuel french.com order, go to Amazon, find a copy of other desert cities. And I actually I think reading stuff like this just makes you a, better screenwriter too. It absolutely does. It absolutely does. Even though you're talking about a whole different world of blocking and things like that when you're directing or writing a play. But reading really good plays, it just enhances your ability as a screenwriter. Yeah, yeah. I mean, because you're doing it, they're doing so much with so little, like stage descriptions, art bits. So yeah, there's a lot of imagination, but then you can still bring your stuff to it. I was going to ask you to repeat the title, so thank you for doing that. And yeah, I'll go by it. So folks go check it out. You'll you'll like it a lot. Yeah. Sounds like really it's excellent. It sneaks up on you too. Like you don't realize how full this material is until you're done with it. And you're like, there's so much to unpack that, like. Like, I've read it three times, and every single time I'm like, it's never ending. It's a well, it is a well of family drama that you just like I've mentioned, like to see an excellent production of. This must be like the most rewarding experience you could have. Oh, man, that's great. I love the passion for it, I love that. So my recommendation already touched on it a little bit. This is a tough movie. This is a tough movie. So so it's a cautious recommendation. It's Bob Fosse, his final film. It's called star 80. It was released in 1983. It's kind of hard to find. Have you ever even heard of this? No. Wait for this piece of Hollywood history. Here we go. True story. It's based on a true story about a girl named Dorothy Stratten. Innocent girl from Canada who was always, who was, what word to use. Groomed. Charmed. Used by this shithead con man of sorts. Paul Snider, who became her boyfriend manager, moved her to Hollywood and tried to ride the coattails of her fame. She quickly became Playmate of the month, and then Hugh Hefner made her Playmate of the year for Playboy. She got a leading role in a movie called They All Laughed, and she began an affair with that film's director, Peter Bogdanovich. Oh, Dorothy was very well liked by the powers that be in Hollywood, but everyone hated Paul Snider. Everyone. He's loud, he's brash, arrogant, small timer with all these get rich quick schemes. That type of hustler, Dorothy in here, on and off she matures and moves on despite still being very young. And Paul Snider murdered her in a completely horrific, brutal way. Violated her body in a terrible way after she had died. And then he himself died by suicide. Oh, all of this is captured to a startling degree in star 80, truly one of the most controversial films ever made. Dorothy is murdered in the summer of 1980. This film was released in the fall of 1983. That's fast. This was a Hollywood scandal. This Dorothy Stratten murder. Yeah, that is fast. Beyond that, the movie is controversial because it is not a biopic of Dorothy Stratten, which it was marketed as the poster. The trailer. This, most tellingly, is a film focused on Paul Snider, and that pissed a lot of people off. The movie is told from his perspective. Falsey is never trying to gain sympathy for him. He's never trying to show you stuff, to be like, oh, a Paul Snider good guy. Never. It was hugely controversial that the film focused on him as opposed to her. Mariel Hemingway, who had become known for a very young love interest in Manhattan a few years earlier. She's fresh off that controversial film, and she's great in the movie. Personal best. She's angelic as Dorothy and star Edie. She's incredible. Eric Roberts plays Paul Snider, and it is. I mean, it's because the film is so controversial, but it is. It's criminal that he was not nominated for this. It's truly one of the best performances of the 80s. It focuses on wild obsession and, you know, the lost dreams of a complete moron. Frankly, cliff Robertson plays Hugh Hefner. There are a lot of scenes that take place at the Playboy Mansion. Roger Reese plays a director that is based on Bogdanovich. Carol Baker, the great Carol Baker plays her mom. A lot of people hate the movie. A lot of people appreciate it. I was turned on to it because Tarantino and Roger Avery covered it in their podcast. It's one of their favorite films. Cinematographer is Vin Nyquist. It looks good. It's well-performed it's tough. It leads to, it's tough, but it's a crazy story. Peter, about Peter Bogdanovich ended up marrying Dorothy's younger sister like years later. It's weird. Like the whole story was with Bob Donovan and Hugh Hefner ended up. They blamed each other for her death because, you know, but there's only one person to blame. And he died because he killed her and then killed himself. But it's a wild movie. It's tough to take, but I am recommending it if you, you know, if you can be in for everything I just described. It's only the end that it's tough. Everything else is, you know, you see her, like, rising up and him being left behind because he deserves to be. Because he's an idiot and a shithead. Would you? Good movie. But it's tough to take. Good. Would you give this your second favorite Bob Fossey directed movie? Yes. And some people listen to this are going to be like this. All right. He's officially fucking lost his mind. But yeah, it's more star 80 of all of his movies is the most white coated film of Bob Fosse. Is it is the thing. It's the kind of thing we would watch and be like, well, yeah, we're we're going for this. Let's do it. But all that jazz is my favorite in Star City. I really, I like sweet Charity. I liked that movie cabaret was a movie that was not for me. It, it just wasn't. I have all that Oscar stuff hanging over it. Of course, that's part of it. But I'm saying that noting that I saw it once, ages ago, and have never had a desire to go and revisit it. A lot of people listening to this are probably like, this dude has lost his mind because it's one of the best movies ever made, and a lot of people have that opinion. Good on them. I'm not taking anything away from it. All that jazz. We did it. We did it. Showtime, folks, zip up the bag. We're done. Yeah. Hey, everyone, it's Alex, just me. We went on a little Tom cruise tangent there talking about vanilla Sky and the latest Mission Impossible film. So I thought it'd be fun to hop on and talk about this whole franchise just quickly. You know, this All That Jazz episode ran a little short short for us. So I'm just going to spend a few minutes talking about these movies. I did not plan on doing this. Okay, that's how I'll start the Mission Impossible The Final Reckoning. We are being told this is the final film in the Mission Impossible franchise. Who knows? We'll see. I think that depends entirely on money. If it makes if it is the highest grossing Mission Impossible film, which is difficult. But if that happens, don't make another one. Trust me, they will find a way. I was not very interested in seeing this new Mission Impossible movie. As a fan of the franchise, I've seen every one of these movies in the theater more than once. I go multiple times because I think there are a lot of fun. I don't necessarily think every movie is perfect, but I do like them in general. Up until Mission Impossible Dead Reckoning Part one, whatever the hell we're going to call it Dead Reckoning, because I guess this new one was supposed to be part two, and then they needed a rebrand because, I don't know. I remember talking about that movie, honestly. I think it was when we reviewed Oppenheimer, like our initial Oppenheimer review, because that came out a week before Oppenheimer, and it just left a sour taste in my mouth when I saw it, none of it was projected in Imax, and I saw it in Imax and so I thought they kind of tricked us there. So I was pissed off about that. I really still have to maintain that. I don't think the CGI is very good in that film. Particular early in what is probably known as that movie's stand out set piece, the train set piece where the train is dangling and, you know, they have to jump up and everything. I just I didn't think it looked real. I wasn't sold, but my biggest gripe with that film is it doesn't even have to do with the content of the movie itself, necessarily. It's that they spoiled that awesome motorcycle leap turned skydive into the train months ahead of time. When I was seated for avatar two in December 2022, I saw some people had to see this. You know what I'm talking about. It was like, I don't want to say ten minutes and exaggerate, but it was long. It was like it was 5 to 10 minutes. And they are walking through in detail how they perform this stunt. And then you see him perform the stunt and it's awesome. Like it? It's awesome. And it took all of the thrill out of watching it live. In the movie, I saw the scenes of it. He sped off of a white ramp. That's what it looked like. It was white. And then I could just the grass didn't look real to me like in the final movie. I don't know, I thought that was silly. I thought I showed way too much of their hand. And as I've said constantly, I don't think these modern action movies need to be breaching the three hour runtime. No Mission Impossible movie has got there yet, but they've gotten really close. They're only about 11 minutes away, and if you go to the theater and you have the shitload of previews before, it's just a long outing. It's all I'm saying. It's a long, long outing. So I was down on Dead Reckoning, and that made me not very excited for the final reckoning. I've avoided the trailers. I knew I was going to see it, I knew I was going to see it, but I wanted to wait until the hype died down. It is right now, the evening of Friday, May 30th. So I even took like a week and a half to go see it. But I saw it on Wednesday on an Imax screen and I'm seeing it tomorrow at the air and Space Museum, which is a massive Imax screen. I'm actually seeing it with a soon to be brand new guest of the podcast. Hint, hint. And I'm seeing it again so quickly because this movie is awesome. I loved Mission Impossible The Final Reckoning. I cannot recommend highly enough seeing this on the biggest screen possible. It was absolutely worth it. The Imax scenes are stunning. It's the longest of the franchise. If if I was bored by this, honestly, if I didn't like it, I wouldn't be doing this mini franchise review. That's the truth. If I didn't want to encourage people to go see it, I wouldn't be talking about that or any of them now. I would just let them go off into the where are they now? Paramount. That's where I've watched so many of these in the last week or the last four days. Paramount plus, there's all on there. What I wrote on Letter Box is that it's not a five star American film classic, but as far as I'm concerned, it is as good as these massive summer American movies can be. It's blockbuster filmmaking at its best. All the gripes I just listed about Dead Reckoning. The long runtime, which I did feel in Dead Reckoning and Dead Reckoning is just a few minutes shorter than Final Reckoning. I wasn't bored by any of the dialog. I was honestly very bored by a lot of the exposition and Dead reckoning final reckoning I thought it was easy to track. I got it all. Yes, there's some absolute ridiculous things that happens. There's, you know, there's nuclear weapons involved, there's AI technology. It was the perfect amount of, I don't know, plot silliness and taking itself seriously. I thought cruise was totally locked in, like really locked into the character. And, you know, again, if it's the last time at it, he was he was kind of carrying it with that weight, and I liked him in it. And. The main reason I'm seeing this again and I'm not going to get into it, this thing ends with I'm just saying it. It's the best set piece of this entire franchise. Wow, wow. If there are YouTube videos explaining in vivid detail how they did it, what's computer graphics versus what's practical, fine, but that's not being shoved down my throat. Right before the biggest movie of the year, avatar two. So if that exists, it's not like they put it before, I don't know, sinners or something. It's not like they put it before a big movie and kind of made us see it. Not having a choice. So I don't know how they pulled it off. If you seen the movie, you know what I'm talking about involves planes. It's just fantastic. It's I'm you also, for maybe one of the first times in this franchise, I really felt Cruise's age, just his actual age, because it doesn't it does look impossible what he's doing, but it doesn't look easy for the actor. And sometimes he makes this shit look very easy. This is not an easy set. Pieces, you know, skin is all blowing in the wind. It's like it's just really good. I like the movie as a whole, and it absolutely built up to a phenomenal set piece that just leaves you feeling you're like, all right, cool. That was a time and money well spent at the movies, for sure. I'm not going to give any spoilers about The Final Reckoning really at all, because I want people to go see it. I haven't read too many reviews, or I haven't seen too much reaction to the Final Reckoning, other than it wasn't very good. Like for the first few days, I was hearing, it's really slow. Like it's not do it's not going to be that good. It's not going to be remembered as one of the best of the franchise. So maybe that helped me, because being let down by dead reckoning, which I rewatched the day before Final Reckoning, because, you know, they were pitched as one story. So I'm like, all right, I'll catch up with it too. And I wanted to see if I was still going to be as bored. And I was so walking into Final Reckoning, the, I guess, lukewarm reaction, my non favorable opinion of dead reckoning, I don't know. And yeah, I'm stunned. I cannot believe I like the movie this much. Truly. I really, really enjoyed it. And if you are a fan of the franchise, I don't think you're going to be let down. Well, I'm going to rank these movies coming off, and I think what's funny is I've been looking at some of the rankings and we all agree on like 1 or 2. It seems like 1 or 2 kind of make it to the top and 1 or 2 or kind of consistently at the bottom. But there are some like dead reckoning. People do not agree on the final reckoning. It does not look like people agree on it's so it's fun. I don't know, it makes for interesting discussion. I didn't think the movie would have wowed me as much as it did, and its reliance on practical effects, in my opinion, organically weaving in the entire franchise. Not in a cheesy way. They just, you know, there are callbacks to almost every as far as I could tell, every other movie in the franchise, all seven of them, because there's eight of these babies total. Let's go through them real quick, then I'll rank them. I know a lot of people have seen these just giving my very brief thoughts on them. Mission impossible, released in 1996, directed by Brian De Palma, written by David Kemp, who is still writing great screenplays. He wrote two for Steven Soderbergh this year, and the great Robert Towne, who won a screenplay for writing Chinatown. So these people know what they're doing. All these people. I just rewatched this, I this movie is a lot of fun. It's a good summer action movie. I remember sitting there ten years old, seeing it with my mom in the theater. It's a really good Brian De Palma movie. It fits well in his filmography. It is not like some throwaway action movie that this master director was doing for money. Or if he was, it doesn't play that way. It would rank highly in his overall filmography. And I would say the same for cruise. I think it ranks highly in his overall filmography, and this might have the best opening of any of the movies, although technically it is like it's like 35 40 minutes. The whole thing where, you know, a lot of them get wiped out. There's no flashy stunts in that. It's just it's really good screenwriting and acting in the cinematography, when he's like, when Cruise's up against the wall with Kristin Scott Thomas and they're, you know, pretending to like, kiss and stuff to be undercover, there's just these blues and there's this yellow behind them, like it's it's beautiful. It looks gorgeous. Action set pieces. After that opening, of course, you have the break in at CIA headquarters. Not the most action packed thing, but the way they are walking you through it. I've talked a lot about how I'm kind of obsessed with process and just watching things. I love all that, even down to toast. Toast. It's it's great. And then the absolutely insane train helicopter tunnel sequence that is as physically ridiculous as anything you're going to see in this franchise. And I said in Letter Box, it kind of gives the whole franchise a bit of a pass, because if people were if people thought that was cool and they were convinced by that, then you know that we're not exactly adhering to the science of physics. I'll put it that way. Mission impossible to release four years later. Wow. This is the directed by John Woo. Is it ever directed by John Woo? Sole screenwriting credit goes to Robert Towne on this one. This is the one people love to hate. People love to hate. Mission impossible two. I'm, Well, I swear I lose some of you, I think. I think this movie's a lot of fun. It is absolutely ridiculous. Absolutely, yes. Throwing motorcycles at each other, like, in the air, like I. Yes, it's ridiculous, but I don't know, like, in the first one, he puts the gum together, puts it on the front of a helicopter, and then the explosion from that shoots him off the helicopter onto a moving train. That's ridiculous to see. I'm getting defensive because I think Mission Impossible two has some I don't know. I think it's very entertaining. I absolutely think it is a post face of John Woo movie. It's very big. You got the plane crash in the beginning. You got Ethan climbing those rocks. You got said motorcycle chase. You got the beach fight, you know, kicking the gun up it. It's not the best one. I don't think anyone would say that, but this came out like the first one was very smart and intelligent in spy like, and it just had a lot of depth to it for a ten year old. Four years later, Mission Impossible two, we were we saw it a lot, my friends and I in the theater. We bought a DVD. We played those scenes a lot. So there's some nostalgia there. Certainly, while absolutely recognized that it is silly, okay, Mission Impossible three this is it's tough and not tough. It's tough because I don't really like this movie as a movie. And I know we've talked about it on the pod before because we talked about it for the best reason to talk about it in the Philip Seymour Hoffman episode, which we did ages ago. At this point, he's the best villain in this entire franchise. He's the best villain. He's one of the best villains, rather, in any big movie of this kind, like, let's say so far this century without question, so far this century, he is so good and so committed. The movie starts with him. It starts with a flash forward. It doesn't start with an Ethan Hunt set piece of him hanging off a plane or something. It's a flash forward of Philip Seymour Hoffman yelling at him and threatening to shoot his love, Ethan Hunt's love. It's awesome. The movie itself, you know, I was taking some very loose, like, quick bullet point notes just from memory right before I hit record to make sure I didn't miss anything. I couldn't not remember a single action scenes from part three. I know the fight at the end, the head explosives. And then I really had to think. And I was like, oh yeah, they shot. There's that bridge scene because they shot that in part of it in the city I went to college in, and it was, it was kind of a thing for like a week, you know? And then I had to be reminded that there is a Vatican kidnaping in it, which I do not have a good memory recall of. This is a J.J. Abrams directed, written, and directed movie. And I think you feel that I don't think it looks very good. I think it looks the worst of the eight films, and I don't think that's a reach to say that. So three, I'm not very high on three. That's okay. Whatever. Number four, we get Brad Bird, who directed The Incredibles. He comes on to make Mission Impossible Ghost Protocol. This comes out in 2011. They did not time this for the summer. They time this for the a winter release kind of an Oscar. It's when you would be going to Oscar movies, so it's probably some counterprogramming. What's 2011? Oh the artist yeah, yeah. You want to skip the artist or you've already seen the artist four times. Everyone saw that movie four times. Go to Ghost Protocol instead. That must have been the pitch. I it's a fine movie. I didn't need to go there. It's whatever. It's an innocent movie. The artist got ghost protocol. The Kremlin gets blown up. Pretty radical sequence. The Burj Khalifa. Am I saying that right to anyone listening? Burj Khalifa? That's that's the thing. And that I think that set pieces. Awesome. I don't think it's a coincidence that this film was shot by Robert Elswit, who had already won an Academy Award for there Will Be Blood. He's an amazing cinematographer. That sequence is it's like the reason you see the movie. You go, okay, that was worth the price of admission to me anyway, the sandstorm chase. It's not bad. I don't I think Ghost Protocol and Rogue Nation, I go around in my head and I'm like, which one was that again? So the only two I didn't rewatch for this episode. I guess it's three and four. I watched all the other ones, and I only rewatched five because I didn't remember that much from it. Five is interesting because eight Rogue Nation. So Mission Impossible Rogue Nation comes out summer 2015. This starts with the jaw dropping set piece of him cruise, Ethan Hunt hanging off the damn plane, the very, very big plane. And he's just hanging off of it. And that's scene one I will never forget. I am never late to movies in the theater. Never. But if I'm going to do a double feature, sometimes I would get the timing wrong and maybe there wouldn't be as many trailers or something, I don't know. So I walked into Mission Impossible. During the credits. I walked in a mission Impossible Rogue Nation during the credits and the whole fucking movie. I'm waiting for the plane scene and I'm like, did they do this in the first five minutes? The big stunt. So it ended and I had to go see it again just to see the plane thing. So yes, that that hanging off the plane is very cool. You get the dungeon fight. That's where we meet Rebecca Ferguson for the first time, the Vienna Opera House. We're getting these huge set pieces because now we have Christopher McQuarrie taking over. He has directed every Mission Impossible movie since Rogue Nation. I absolutely feel an authorship over these last four movies, for better or worse. Maybe some people like that because, you know, it was the first four movies were a different director. You can absolutely feel a huge tonal shift in some of those movies, but Rogue Nation, Vienna Opera House, you know, it's really big. It goes on for a while underwater, saving the motorcycle chase. They catch the villain in the plastic box. What? I forgot about Rogue Nation and was really laughing at rewatching it. They all need saving so much like cruise needs to be saved so many times. Like taken out of the water. It's just it's hilarious. He keeps getting himself into a lot of trouble in that one six Mission Impossible Fallout Summer 2018 I think this is probably the most universally loved movie of the franchise. That does not mean it's everyone's number one. It's not my number one. Every ranking I have seen in the past week, every Mission Impossible franchise ranking has fallout in their top three. So it may not be your number one, but people who liked this franchise love this movie and it's awesome. The Halo jump, you can say no more. That thing's insane. The fact that cruise did a lot of it practically is nuts. The bathroom fight in the nightclub. I always got a huge kick out of that scene, because that is an absolutely massive nightclub, and no one goes in to use the bathroom for the entirety of that fight. Maybe a few people pop in, but it would be very crowded. That's all I'm saying. There'd be people in there taking bets on the fight. Paris motorcycle chase is awesome. The helicopter fight in the end. Wow. I feel like Final Reckoning was it was kind of a callback to that, like a recent one, but, absolutely outdid fallout. Final reckoning does, in my opinion. Fallout's. Awesome. Number seven Dead Reckoning, known when it was released as Mission Impossible Dead Reckoning Part one, had the glorious misfortune of being released a week before Barb and Heimer, and it was being kicked out of Imax screens quickly. And that's. I just resented this whole thing, because cruise was honestly making a pretty big stink about. I wish we could be in Imax theaters longer if it wasn't in Imax. When I saw it in Imax, it never once took up the full screen. Swear to God, I saw the final Reckoning in the exact same theater. The exact same screen as Dead Reckoning. Exact same one. Final reckoning often took up the whole screen time, saying, so for nerds like me, I'm like, I don't know, I just got mad about that. I did think Dead Reckoning was too long. I don't know why. I don't think Final Reckoning is too long. It felt fine to me. I wasn't bored at all. I think there's a lot of talking and dead reckoning, but you know, enough of the bad. The Russian sub attacking itself in the beginning is really wild. Trying to get the key at the airport is fun. You have the Ethan Paris fight when he spares her, which becomes really, really important. And of course, you have the motorcycle jump that I've gone into and that dangling train number eight, Mission Impossible The final reckoning. Will it be the final movie? I do not know. And we'll see how it does. I'm urging people to go see it. I think if you're a fan of the franchise, it would be silly to not go see it. I don't think it's going to disappoint you. I look this up on Wikipedia because I was curious. I want to know what's which one is made the most money and that is fallout. Fallout has done by far the best financially.$824 million worldwide. It's a lot of money. So I wanted to look at budget versus how much they made things like that on Wikipedia. The budget that stated for Mission Impossible The Final Reckoning is $400 million. That's insane. That is bonkers. That's all timer high. I didn't know it was that much. But you know what? It's all it's on the screen. It is on the screen. Of course, they have to use computer graphics. Of course there is silly stuff involved involving freezing cold water temperatures. Yes, but if they if 150 million of that went to that final action set piece worth it, worth it, go see it.$4.3 billion box office total. That's wild for this franchise. It's worldwide 1.4 domestic billion. I don't I really don't think when anyone saw the first 1 in 96, they thought this was going to happen. Damn near 30 years. This stuff's been gone. It's really wild. All right, I'll rank them. Don't judge me. Don't hate me. There are two things here that people are going to be like, all right, he's nuts. This isn't. I don't, this isn't worth listening to. This is crazy. And I'm even rethinking it now as I look at it. One, I'm fine with my number. Four I'm fine with. I don't really know what to do with eight and seven. So here's how I have it now with eight, maybe rather harshly, I have Dead Reckoning part one. I could, however, switch that with my three Mission Impossible three. But why? I have the third one at seven is just for Philip Seymour Hoffman. It's that performance. So yeah, I'll keep it there. Eight Dead Reckoning Part one seven Mission Impossible three six rogue nation five. Ghost protocol, whatever I mentioned yet four mission impossible two directed by John Woo. Yes, yes, I watched it. You know what I did for this episode? I rewatched that film with John Woo's commentary broke out my good old fashioned DVD commentary. You know what John Woo thinks Mission Impossible two is? I shit you not. He thinks it's a love story. He was making a love story. That's all he cares about. He says it over and over again. This is a love story with action scenes. Yeah. I mean, what do you even say to that? I like the hubris of it. I like the it came out in the 2000, but it is a very, very late 90s. Yeah. Early 2000. Like techno coated movie. Whatever. No, my number four. Mission impossible two. Sorry, not sorry. Number three. Fallout. Awesome movie number two. No bullshit. Not kidding. The Final Reckoning I loved it, I really did. And number one, perhaps a boring choice, but a fair one. Mission impossible. Good old mission impossible. I had a lot of fun rewatching that for this. I haven't just sat down and rewatched, you know, like really watch them and I watch them whatever order I wanted. I wasn't going here and there. I'm like, all right, I'll do this, I'll do this. And I went and watched the first one. And then as soon as it was done, I left the house to go to the final reckoning. And I'll just say it was worth it. That double feature was worth it. No spoilers for the new one, but it was nice to have that refresher. That's all I'll say. Okay, that's really it. Thanks for listening to All That Jazz. Thanks for listening to my Mission Impossible franchise breakdown next time. Oh. Oh, boy. You hear that? What is that? Hear that song, folks? Oh, no. No no no no, that song means. It means it's back and Norah is back on. What are you watching this time for a full watch. A long commentary with a big change. It's not going to be Nick and I. It's going to be myself and a brand new guest. Someone I've reference on the podcast before, someone who knows a shitload about movies, and someone who shares a similar cultural heritage to a lot of the characters in the film. So he's able to provide a lot of insight that I would have had no idea about. We saw Nora together in the theater. Believe you me, the man's first name is a direct callback to a Nora. I really think everyone's going to love it. Stay tuned for that. But as always, thank you all so much for listening and happy watching. Tonight this could be the greatest night of all lives. Let's make a new start. Hey everyone, thanks again for listening. Send us mailbag questions at What Are You Watching podcast at gmail.com. Com or find us on Twitter, Instagram and Letterboxd at WRI underscore podcast. Next time. That's right Nora doesn't die. It's the Nora commentary. It's on Hulu. You can watch right along with us, but make sure you watch it first on your own if you haven't seen it. If you haven't seen it, what's going on to Nora? I've said it now, wisely. Stay tuned. Shine a light on our greatest day. La la la la la la. Shine a light on our greatest day. Is bright. Up. Light up. Oh, I'm the one. Come to la. As the world comes to my.