159: Marathon Man (1976)

Is it safe? Alex and Nick break down one of the best paranoid thrillers ever, “Marathon Man.” Stray topics include the remarkable careers of Dustin Hoffman, Roy Scheider, Laurence Olivier, and William Devane, 1976 in film, John Schlesinger’s best movies, William Goldman’s brilliant source novel, watching “Jaws” for the first time, and debunking the infamous “Why don’t you try acting, darling?” story.

Part 2 of the WAYW New Hollywood Film Project.

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Transcript

0:02

We. Did. This. He came. Hey, everyone. Welcome to. What are you watching? I'm Alex with throw in. I'm joined by my best man, Nick Doe. Stole. Is it safe? But what's what's what's safe? Is it safe? Is it, Yes, it's very safe. Yes. Very safe. I love that it starts doing variation. It's, It's, It's so. It's so safe. You wouldn't believe it. No, no, no, no, I love it. Very dangerous. I think it's the second one. But he does like the quadruple take behind him. He's like, Are you talking to me? Yes. Doesn't hook. I can't comment if it's safe. If I, we just finished recording our Five Easy Pieces pod, which is kind of the Nick docile movie. Someone that he loved. I loved it to reinvestigate it. You hated it? Marathon man is. No, I did, marathon man is my fucking movie. I've read this movie since I was a young lad, entirely too young to have seen it. Thank you, father, for showing this to me. And I don't know, maybe I could go back and actually on YouTube, find the Oscar clip, because I remember it was an opening ceremony, Oscar clip Z either like 95, 96, 97, and they show Laurence Olivier with his hands and Dustin Hoffman's mouth, asking, is it safe? Hoffman tries to Babylon answer and something happens where he hurts Hoffman so bad that he is screaming in pain. And it's like, you know, maybe 3 or 4 second little clip I see, and I look at my dad and I go, what is that? I have to see this. And he says, That's Marathon Man. And within days I had rented it and was watching it. I'm 11, mind you. I'm not kidding. I'm 11 years old watching like having my mind fucking blown. And I, I've just again, like I already loved the movie. I love it even more now once we decided to do it. And I'm so excited to talk about it today. How you feeling, dude? I'm so excited. This is, this has been a treat for me. Oh, good. Yeah, very much so. I, and from, like, what you're saying in the Five Easy Pieces episode was when we had this idea, these were ideas where if both of us had not seen these movies in decades. Yeah. So I honestly, I'm trying to think of when I actually first saw this and I'm thinking in my head, it actually must have been before college. Okay, I had very little when upon rewatching it, I'm like, I don't think I really remember this movie much at all. So it was, I looked at it, this was the first time seeing it and make it cool. What a I mean, I know I've only seen it once, but I think I gotta give it. I think I gotta give it the nick dose of. What are you watching? Note perfect award. This is that. Oh, that's that's a hot take right there. You have your own category. But hey, I know that's not even it saving one, folks. Wow. And nope. Perfect movie from one viewing. Somewhat one viewing. Oh, I love it. I would happen to agree. Yeah, just that music, dude. Oh, this guy is so creepy. It passes through. I turn the volume down like, oh, my God, it's like it's in my tooth. It's in my teeth. Yes. It keeps hitting like a different gear to the those notes. You're like, wait, how high is this going to go? And it loses its, in the nose. Like it's like I've never heard anything like that. Like you, you talk about, like, the, dark night, you know, with like, that sustained note that they use for the Joker. Yeah. And, you can't and I there's no way that that was not inspired some way by this, like, sheer idea of just that sharp sound that just kind of, like, does something to you. Oh my goodness, this is going to be exciting because so far, like The French Connection again, wasn't done with the necessary necessarily with the intention of this new Hollywood project that we're doing. And there is, you know, that's a plot heavy movie. Five Easy Pieces is not a plot heavy movie. Marathon man is a good old fashioned potboiler thriller. There is a very clear pot. There is diamonds involved. There are evil Nazis. It's based on a bestselling book, like it has everything in it. So it's not this, you know, independent thing that a couple of radicals are making. This is a studio movie that was given a budget, a small budget, but a budget. Its director had already won an Oscar for best director and a movie he made one Best picture. So we're cruisin. Everyone here is kind of at the peak of their powers, I would say at the top of their game, the director, the writer, the star and the other movies we've done so far kind of announcements of people. So I'm I'm so excited to talk about this and how the movie came to be and everything, because I this is one of my favorite movies of the 70s, and this contains my favorite Dustin Hoffman performance. It's always been that way. I love him in this movie. He's love babe. He's very, very good in it. I mean, I have to I know we're going to get to that category. I'm I'm still I'm still torn if I think that this is true or not. But we'll find out. All right, we will I that's good call. I did spoil the category there. That's a slap in my hand. But Marathon Man, as I described, I saw it for the first time very young. I serendipitously saw it the day before a dental cleaning. And I remember being in the dental office as a 11 year old boy and saying, oh, I just watched Marathon Man last night. She had no idea the nurse who was cleaning what that was, and I was telling her some of it. She looked very concerned. Oh no, no, it was great. So that's my relationship with it. I watched it young. I've checked in with it every few years. I watched it a few years ago. I had the DVD, so I bought a Blu ray. One of those things where I bought the Blu ray, brand new Blu ray that came, and then like two months later, they released the 4K and I go, damn it, like I got to do it. So I still haven't done the 4K, but it's worth it because rewatching it for this got it looks so good. Looks good. That sound that we're talking about, yeah is great. I would love to see it on 4K. Oh yeah, so would I. So I might just have to do it and moreover, for this viewing I decided to do something I hadn't done before and that was read the source novel that it is based on, written by one of the greatest writers in the history of the written word, William Goldman. So we're going to get to that. So I have a newfound love, a deep love, and a newfound deep respect for the movie. Having read this novel, which I consumed in three days, a literal page turner, I actually bought the book and loved it. I read it so fast, consumed it so quickly, it was just great. So yeah, we have a lot to unpack here and a lot to talk about, but this is a great a 70s thriller. They just don't get much better than this. Oh man, they I mean, that really doesn't I mean, this is just this is just movie making, firing on all cylinders right here. God, I'm so glad you liked it. So let's start with John Schlesinger, the director. Schlesinger. It's a tough one to say. So this is a British guy. Again, we're not doing an American director. This is a British guy who had already he had made movies in Britain. He had made what are known as kitchen sink movies, like A Kind of Loving. He made darling in 1965. People may recall darling. That was with Julie Christie won her Oscar for And He jump all the way to Best Actress 2007. And it made her hard to win her second Oscar. And that's why Marion Cotillard, in part, beat her for Olivia Rose. But this is a category we made fun of a lot. Really hard to get to. The 2024 Oscars really harkens back to the 2007 Oscar race. Between The Simpsons. Yeah, Julie Christie and Marion Cotillard. There you go. That's darling. That's amazing. Far from far from the Madding Crowd, which they have remade. And then 1969 is hello Fuck you, Midnight Cowboy hadn't seen the movie really, like, thoroughly sat down and watch it in a while. I redid that for this. Wow, that thing. The craziest thing about it is that it won Best Picture and Best Director. Like, it is so scuzzy and grimy and so New York like that is a movie I would love to do in this series. Not a 70s movie, but absolutely. But Midnight Cowboy is like the new Hollywood movie of New Hollywood. That Easy Rider, Bonnie and Clyde, Sunday Sandy, always say road Sunday, Bloody Sunday, which I mispronounce the French Connection part to good movie. Peter Finch The Day of the Locust in 1975, which you would like. Babylon would not exist without Day the Locust. It's just like hell in LA in the 20s or 30s. Everything starting off good, then everything goes wrong. Karen Black it was like this magnificent set piece of LA on fire. Like it's fucking. It's wild. And again, Babylon doesn't exist without that. But then that leads to Marathon Man in marathon man is coming from a place of like, this guy is one best director. He has already worked with heart with Hoffman does not mean Midnight Cowboy. So they're coming back together. But he had never done a thriller before John Schlesinger so he goes, yeah, I'll give it a shot. And I'm, you know, this American thriller. So that's where he is kind of coming into it. I'll give it a shot. He's kind of coming into the mix there, and it's it's a hot property. The before the novel was even finished, famed producer Robert Evans had bought the screen rights for it, too. So Goldman publishes the novel in 1973. I don't know if I mentioned it, but I read it in three days. It's fucking incredible. Then the movie he writes, he says he wrote about two different two versions of the novel and four different versions of the screenplay. But it's great when, like, I can see all the changes that he made, and I understand the changes that he made for the screenplay. And I love that. Essentially the final, you know, brushstroke of the movie In the Reservoir was all written by Robert Towne, the famed, like poncho artist and friend of Jack Nicholson, who won an Oscar for writing Chinatown. And then, you know, he wrote that great conversation between, Brando and Pacino in Godfather one about this is the person who's going to come after you after I die. So he was this renowned kind of punch up artist. But it's all these things coming in a marathon man and William Goldman, you asked me before we went on it what else he has done. Here's what the man has done for screenplays. He won an Oscar for writing Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. Oh, that's how I. Yup, yep, yeah. Wrote the hot Rock with Robert Redford. I love that movie Stepford Wives, the Great Waldo Pepper. Marathon man won a second Oscar for writing the screenplay for All the Presidents Men. Whoa, yeah. Bridge too far. Magic. He wrote the Oscar he wrote the screenplay for, based on his book The Princess Bride. Oh, my God, he wrote the book and the movie. Yes, the Princess bride. Yeah. How dude did he wrote misery, based on a novel by Stephen King. He wrote Maverick, starring Mel Gibson. Fucking love Maverick. He wrote absolute power to Clint Eastwood. Then he got to do some other stuff down the line. But he's like, I'm just saying that ghost in the darkness, the generals daughter like stuff that isn't isn't maybe the best, but I'm telling you, the mayor thought just the way. He also wrote one of the most famous, books about the industry ever, adventures in the Screen Trade, which was written in 1983 and still absolutely holds up today. It's about being a Hollywood screenwriter. It is. It is one of the best texts ever written about the Hollywood business. So he's just he's at the peak of his writing powers. He's apps. And I mean, what he puts together in this potboiler thriller. It's all there in the book, too. It's just the movies, a slightly more condensed version of it. But God, how well this thing was written. I just love the dialog of it, the scenarios. I love how we're, you know, we're in New York than Paris and yeah, there's no title cards ever. It's so good, so good. So, yeah, William Goldman kind of cool, That's great. You sent me a really great passage from the book Marathon Man. Where essentially he's breaking down a sarcastic comment in, like, seven sections. Yeah. And it's it's like in the intro to the book. It's during the car accident, which is. Yeah, written so well and and staged so well in the movie. And he was like, why was the driver mad a this be this reason? See this reason, he keeps going and I'm like, I didn't even know you could do this shit. A novel like it's hysterically h 80 degrees f Fahrenheit. Like, it's so funny. Yeah, that but it's describing this accident. So, yeah, he has an even. His punctuation is very playful. I, God, I loved it so much. And you can see how the. I mean, the book reads like a movie just ready to be shot. So good. Inconceivable ink. Yeah. And then we have. I mean, it's a perfect storm of Robert Evans, producer. John Schlesinger, director William Goldman, screenwriter Dustin Hoffman, star. He's coming off. I mean, he's done The Graduate Oscar nomination, Midnight Cowboy nominated Little Big Man Strada, dogs, Papillon, Lenny nomination, All the president's Men, marathon man. It's called Papillon. Did I say it wrong? Yeah. Papillion. That's what. Oh, it's Papillon, the LP hell is silent. I got to tell you, I wasn't the biggest fan. All. It's kind of slow me there. Yeah, either. Yeah, yeah, I, I've never been the biggest Steve McQueen guy. People really, really, really love him. But, that stoicism was never. Thank you for correcting me. I appreciate that I've never really known how to, how to pronounce it. You're so welcome. I'm going to take this. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Savor it. Non it let it flow through your teeth because it tastes. So I'm going to delete it. What is safe. So that that's all a lot of backstory they get Olivia which is a huge deal. He was very sick. They didn't know if they would be able to do it. They get Roy Scheider, a friend of the pod. Roy Scheider, friend of that one, just talked about him with French Connection. I love him. He is fresh off jaws starring jaws. So he I mean, you know, he's already been included in The French Connection, the seven ups. And his next film is going to be sorcerer. But so that's what I mean. They're all in this great place to deliver this magnificent thriller. And we can actually, like, start getting into the movie itself. But yeah, leading up to it, when, when are you watching it for for this, for researching it. And when are you realizing this is all new? Like, I don't remember this stuff. We're we're in Paris now, like, What is that? What's going on in your head? You're like, Oh, or the safety deposit. The that's what's first like safety deposit. There's band aid box of diamonds like these two old guys are. There's, road rage. Like what? That was like watching that. Like, I literally, like, wrote down this is madness. Like, this is this road rage scene. The way it just stacks on itself, is just really something like I. It's so interesting. If you were to take a screenplay and be like, all right, we have to film this car chase or it's a car chase, but you get to film this big set piece right? There's so many ways that you could just do this so by the books and just make it like a typical just. We just got to get the footage right. We just got to make sure. But no, they they dive into this. Oh like, they, they make this a whole thing. And to the point where I started thinking at one point I go, you know, I wonder if this old guy that's got the road rage because he calls him a Nazi, and it's like, I bet you he was in the war. He was probably in World War II, too. And like, he's the part of this is like, it's just going back there a little bit. But the only reason I'm saying that is because this was so detailed and, and laid out in intentional that it couldn't help but get my mind to start working. And because you don't normally just like someone just has road rage, it's just sort of like, oh, this guy. But this just builds and builds and continues and he's just hitting them in the back with the car, yelling at them. And then it's a full on like that. He's like, I'm like, what is happening? I that was the point where I was like, I don't remember this movie whatsoever because I would not forget, a car scene this in depth. Yeah. And it's that was the passage I sent you from the book. Yeah, yeah. And so. Well and detailed and sarcastically in the book. But yeah, the you get the inner workings of a lot of the characters. So you can see it in the movie when he refers to him, as he calls him, a Jew in German, which is that. But the way reads on that guy's face. Yeah, it must have been like a thing that Nazis said a lot like in that specific way. And he goes, you Nazi bastard! But yeah, I loved it. You know, we start, we get to, we get the credit sequence, we see Dustin Hoffman running. Okay, there's this old guy in, like a safety deposit room putting. He's got diamonds in a Band-Aid box. He passes that off on the street, and there's this car accident where the guy who did the passing off is like, what is in the car? This car stalls out. But what I love is that we get to meet the the perpetrator like 30s before. So we already know he's mad at the mechanic. But, yeah, we get this crazy car that we don't know why it's going. We have no idea what it's setting up. I mean, honestly, for like 45 minutes, you don't know the connection that the movie's making. We don't know. Why are we focused on Roy Scheider in Paris? Like what? What does this have to do with anything? So it's setting all this stuff up and we get to learn, like, you know, the guy who died in a car accident, the guy who's dealing with the diamonds was an important figure. So it's just a great way to set it all up. And. And there's an entire world living in this car. Yes. Exact. Great. Yeah. And you can only achieve this by taking this kind of care that it's really like. Yeah. You know, like, throughout the story, these pieces are going to reveal themselves and you're going to connect them. But when you take this kind of care of something like everything matters so much more, because if you're going through all of this car chase, which really ultimately is just there to just serve the fact that this Nazi guy died. Yeah, that's what I mean. This is a very like, plot heavy movie. You're being shown stuff like, that guy has to die so that his brother can be compelled to come out of hiding. Like, we don't know this yet, but this is what's happening. Yeah. And and and because it's very like, that's just the bottom line is like, oh, the plot needs this guy to die. But yeah, like putting this kind of detail into this road rage scene of how it happens. It's just just great. And then his car stalls out that he goes, yeah, you know, they hit the oil truck. I just love it. He's still he's so damn angry. And then yeah, the antis Semitism comes up. So we're getting that whole story. But you're I think you're absolutely on to something about that the guy's involvement in the war and I think. Yeah, see, I do I do think that some register that on his face like, oh my God. Yeah. This son of a bitch. Exactly. So it's like, I don't care where we are. I'm like going down. Yeah. And a good thriller. Like, you got to stick with it because you're not going to. I mean, we're meeting Dustin Hoffman. We're we're seeing him. He spots the accident, and then we just kind of go off with him and we're like, okay, we don't really know why I love him. It's established really well in the book. The Stoop kids just fucking with him, calling him creepy. A creep. Creep. Like, it's such a good detail and even that you're like, oh, this just feels like a nice character detail. It's going to be so important later. The fact that they call him creep, like he's going to use that to his advantage later, which is such an ingenious scene like, oh my God, I love that. Well, and it's funny because that was my first, impression of Dustin Hoffman even on the screen, because he's running, but he just has this look on his face like, I know he's breathing heavy because he's running, but he does look like like a weirdo. Like, it's sort of like pro. Why you why are you running like that? Like, why is your face like like what do you. And then to think like, it's like, oh yeah. Because it's just like he has a reputation for just being a little weird. Little creepy little, he completely harmless, but but he just has that look, and I go, oh, so now that, like, it's just it's really, really good. I love it. And yeah, he's he's gone. We don't we still don't know much about him. And then boom. Really without warning, we're in the back of a car with Roy Scheider in Paris. And man, I know it's from seeing this movie in particular. And movies like it's So Young I'm still so obsessed with like this spy shit. And they're talking about one thing, but doing other stuff and using all these code words and like, you know, we exist between what the FBI can't do in the CIA, can't touch, like, I love all this shit. I just love Rob Scheider. And it's you can totally tell that, like he used to be a boxer, he has this very unique physicality to him. So we're just watching him walk around and we don't know don't know what he's doing. Okay. He's got the band A box of diamonds. Now it's hide them in a box of chocolates. Yeah, that's not off to a guy like all this stuff. And then, a very telling scene when someone named Janie calls on the phone in his hotel room. And if you pay attention to how he's talking, you know, get your ass over here, I miss you. I want to see you. It's very interesting dialog, because when you're watching this or more in particular, when you're reading the book, you think he's talking to a woman and he doesn't just have one call with Janie. He calls Janie in the book a lot, and they have more explicit conversation. So I think there's something going on here between him and Janie. I think maybe there's a little bit more than like a professional, you know, thing. I think they might have something going on inside. So when we meet Janie later and realize that Janie is, in fact, a man, it kind of makes it. It's a nice little hit, like in the book when he goes, my name's, you know, Jan Way, but my friends call me Janie, and that's like a chapter break and you go, Holy shit, that's a guy. Yeah, that was a woman. But we meet him. Oh my God, William Devane. God, I love William Devane. A little later, he's got such a face. Well, I love his face. Is. Nell's brother was killed in New York. Oh, my God, I love him so. But, that's a really good impression. I've been working on it. There's all this shit, like going on Paris. A stroller explodes, like all this stuff, and we're just building this world that I am. So I love watching so much. Because the more you watch the movie, everything pays off there. Like the guy he meets. Here's the guy who's gets this, you know, throat slash at the opera, who's this Asian dude watching him everywhere like, it's, it's so good it all pays off, and I. Yeah, I love this world building. I love we go back to Colombia and we get to see. Okay, here's who our marathon man is. He's this, you know, historian genius of sorts, who's at Columbia getting is working on his doctorate. It's got this kind of tense relationship with this professor. Professor has more to do in the book. He shows up more than just in this one scene. But I love they're kind of dynamic together. But yeah, now things are starting to come together. You know, there's talk of, like, his dad. His dad was a genius. Dustin Hoffman's dad and all this stuff. It's just it's this good worldbuilding. I love it, and there's something going on this whole entire time. It's, it's in the score and it's in the sound the whole entire time. I mean, the only word that I can accurately describe is, like, menacing. There is just a menacing tone that is being the whole entire way that's making us feel paranoid. Yeah. Like, we don't know. Thriller of the 70s. Yeah, yeah. And it's like, is it? There's like even the sound of traffic, like when we're not even in the car chase in the beginning. But like when Royce shares in Paris and like the way that we're just hearing things, I can't really put my like, understand or explain like how to make sounds come across in a paranoid like manner. But this movie does it just like it's just. Oh yeah, it's yeah, it absolutely is. And so like and you're getting this the whole entire time. The only time you don't really get it is in the very, very like scenes with Dustin Hoffman, when he's kind of actively in his life. But you do get it when he's running, you know. So but it's like in those moments at Columbia, in the classroom when he meets the girl, like that goes away. It's the only reprieve that we get, which is a great, like way to kind of balance the world of the of the thriller existing. But he's not a part of it yet. And. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Until his brother comes in knocking, he is blissfully ignorant of all this. Yeah. Yep, yep. This is great. Good shit. It is. And I there's also another thing that's going on in sometimes the South like we're in his psyche with these sounds we'll go to like these sepia flashbacks. Right. Yeah. Like a guy running or of, you know, a little boy on a swing or something. These are really ingeniously woven into the book to. And that's helping us build the story of like, oh, is, you know, we learn a lot more about his dad as it goes, but I love that stuff too. But yeah. Good. That is what makes these movies like these. It's called a paranoid 70s thriller for a reason. It's that it's always so eerie and there's danger always lurking. You know, danger hasn't necessarily announced itself yet. We know it's coming. We know we're in the hands of a thriller. And yes, yes we are. Oh, we are loving. He does that a midnight cowboy lot too. He goes to really quick flashbacks of in Midnight Cowboy. It's like horrific shit. Oh yeah. Yeah. And rape. And I mean it's tough, it's tough. But he's he's established that tempo before. I also love that this is like the first time these years here that we're talking about is when they were experimenting with stuff like this with cinematography. This was shot by Conrad Hall, who's won Oscars for American Beauty, wrote a tradition, Cool hand Luke Cassidy. Yeah. Cool. Cool hand Luke. Like, he's an amazing DP. He knows what he's doing. And yeah, the sound. This was the second movie that ever use a Steadicam. The first was bound for glory the same year, but the Steadicam had just been invented. In those running scenes, you can tell they haven't perfected it yet because it still kind of wobbles. But in four years, you see how they were playing with this tool in Marathon Man, and then a guy like Kubrick is perfecting it in four years in The Shining. So you're just you're seeing new aspects of film come alive here. Cinematography, editing patterns. William Devane 70. Staple. God, I love meeting him in Paris. He's just so good. You know, we get back to Paris and we get our first kind of big action scene post accident, which is Doc's just working out, getting in a good set in his room. Roy Scheider there. Yeah. How's glass OJ looking out. And then dude sneaks up behind him and I actually paused from when he sees the wire go over to when he blocks it. It's eight frames of a second. So that's 8/24 of a second that he it's so quick how he does it. And then oh it's just such a good fight scene dude. It feels good. It would hurt so bad. And then one thing I'm going to be talking about the book more than usual because I literally finished it, but it talks about how deadly he is with his hands and how he can just kill someone with like, a chop like that because he knows how to do it. And yeah, I love this. Oh, back break at the end. Jesus. Oh my God. It's a great scene. It's a great scene. It's it's it's disturbing and cool all at the same time. Yeah. Because you really get like it's terrifying because you're they he does such a good job of placing like those people across the way. I was just going to say that's the thing I remembered most. Was the old guy seeing it. Yeah. Seeing like the the splashes of blood and and, you know, alerting his mate. Yeah. Yeah. And I love that too because it you see these few because ultimately maybe it's the story's the story but like no one does anything. And I think that's like a very human thing is like when we see something going on like that, more often than not, most people will choose to ignore it by standard effect. Yep. Yeah, exactly. But you end up feeling the weight and the reality of this fight because of that. If we didn't get those people seeing that and then like continuously blood splatter and then people like continuously look away, the fight will still be cool. But we're not going to get that element of reality where we're like, oh, this is really this is this is how this goes. This is just and this is happening like, this is there's actually a fight to the death happening right now. So good. It's so cool to see that like articulated with no words in the movie was you know, in a novel, that's all it is, is word. So to make it clear right away that, like, you are in a standoff with someone and one of us comes out alive, there's no other scenario where one of us doesn't die. So you use whatever you have your hands, a wire, a knife, like you use, whatever. You're the backbreaker. Use the old backbreaker on in there. Duh. Right? I mean, whatever works. Yeah, he's he's, way more of, like, a badass spy in the novel. He kills more people. And I was interested. He has this fucking gnarly scene at LAX where he kills two dudes in the bathroom, two other spies in the bathroom. I was really surprised to find out that they shot that up, and it was really, really violent. It was in the test screen. They also had inserts of the dental stuff and it was way more violent, way more gruesome. And I guess people were like passing out at these test screenings and they couldn't handle it. So they cut it all, which is really interesting to think about the movie. It's not fat, there's no wasted scenes, but it's two hours and five minutes and a few. I think they cut like eight minutes out of it of that stuff. So that would have been very interesting. I would have loved to see that cut. But yeah, I, I found that curious to be like, wow, that must have been. I wonder if it was so intense that they had to trim it down. I mean, I don't know, but I love what he's done with the killing. We get a little like, you can see John Wick in this shit where he just calls it. He's like removals. Yeah. You know, he's got a body, you know, alert the clinic. I love all that cool, code shit. And then, I get the vein. Shows up to the hospital. I told him you fucked up my tennis game. I just love that fucking terrible outfit. That's really the first time we hear about this accident. And, like, what this accident could be. And, you know, Snell's brother's been killed. He's. He's like, oh, wow. And we're starting to learn what, like, all of this stuff is. And I'm interested to see, like your read on it as we go. Like, how much of this did you grab, how much of it matters? Like what? Like what is Roy Scheider's role? What's going on with all this? Oh yeah. Like do you get what doc Roy Scheider it like what he does. Do you get his role in like the division and like how it all operates and why Laurence Olivier Ezell gets this pass like I wonder I wonder how clear that is. Yeah. I guess I could see that I probably don't know the real actual, like, in detail how sure what these operations are and like, what it is. But I mean, you definitely know enough to where you want to stand for plot wise. And so, but yeah, it's interesting because now thinking about it, it's like, I don't you don't really even need to know, you know, in a way. Yeah. That's it. That's just the thing. Here's a plot point that I'm really interested in. So I'd already known the movie, very familiar with it. So I'm reading the book. We meet, Elsa, played by Martha Keller, and the film. I love that she didn't know how to speak English for her audition, so she did it phonetically and still won the role and then learned how to speak English. So they meet, you know, Columbia Library. He becomes infatuated. Just I just, you know, a little different from the book. In the book, after their first meeting, he goes away and she makes a phone call. And we know from the get that she's dirty. We know from the get that she is reporting to someone about him. He's very naive. He's very young. He's very cute when so when I was reading the book a few days ago, that shocked me and I went, oh yeah, they're they're revealing and they don't harp on it. They don't keep going back to it in her scenes, but you know that she's reporting to someone you don't know the level of danger. You don't. But you know, she's involved somehow. But I just thought that was a cool choice to kind of, they're subtle with it in the movie. Like, I don't think you're supposed to believe that she's 100% fully on board. She's shady. But I just like that they that detail difference. Yeah. No, I, I, I like that a lot. I'm trying to think of if I would like it better knowing like if it was like that, if it was posited in that way. Yeah. I think for the movie's purpose. I like the way it is because. Because the whole entire thing, you're that the tone of the movie is making you feel like you can't trust anything. So to be lulled to a bit of like, I like he trusts her, like to keep questioning instead of knowing like, can we trust her? Is this trustworthy? No, it should be fine. I think it just puts you in that his headspace. I yes, I absolutely agree because the book is not written in first person. It's written, you know, we can kind of going to everyone, but the movie is more mostly from his perspective. So I understood the choice more. I also think it it gives us a little too much danger. We might be asking too many questions early on, and we're like, okay, and maybe we don't need it. Like, we already know there's a conspiracy going on and he's going to be involved somehow, which we're getting closer to because right after their meet cute. We crossfade. It's not a hard cut. It's a crossfade to where? Paraguay, Uruguay, Argentina. And here we meet Doctor Christian Zel, played by Laurence Olivier, one of the all time great movie villains. I kind of skimmed over him before, but Olivier is like. I mean, it's fucking Olivier. Like everyone who ever acts at you, whether or not you've seen a performance of his or not, you, admire him. And there's a lot of backstory. They really wanted him. They went to him first and he, you know. Yes, absolutely. I'll do it. They didn't know if they could get him insured because he was sick. He had some nerve damage. He couldn't move. Well, he he only took this part. This is true because he thought he was going to die. And he wanted to leave the money to his wife and his kids. That's the only reason he took it. He did have a recovery. He was in movies later. He was in good movies. Later he's nominated for Oscars after Marathon Man. But to see him to hear all these stories, William Goldman talk about him with such reverence, about how there was no, he he he came in day one of rehearsals and just said, do you mind if we cut off the hair now, let's get it over with. And, you know, shaved his head and made him bald and his characterization of this evil Nazi dentist is one of my favorite movie villains ever. The politeness, the. Yeah. Oh, like how, clean. Like washing their hands and everything's sterilized, and I just love it. We're back here and we're like, who the fuck is this guy? What is going on? Oh, man. In the movie, that's really like the end of kind of part one to me, because once we get into part two of like, doc coming over becomes new to New York, Zell comes in New York, it's all coming home for babe now, and the chickens are coming home to roost. Damn right there. And that's that's our are set up to kind of explain it. What Roy Scheider does is he acts as a courier to get a shitload of diamonds when needed, down to this ex Nazi savage dentist piece of shit. Doctor Christian Zell. And that's how he lives. He's able to live off this diamond cachet, and his brother pulls him out of a safety deposit box, passes them off to this person, this person, this person, and eventually they cross hands with Roy Scheider. And then eventually they make it into the hands of Zell, down in Uruguay, Uruguay, wherever the hell he is. Why do they do this? Why is the government sanction owning this Nazi, living off the fat of the land in obscurity in South America? Because when they need to show good faith and to give up an old Nazi, Zell is the one that rats them out. It's not unlike what Nicholson's doing in The Departed. Like, don't pay attention to me, but I'll give you other shitheads, and then it allows me to live on with impunity. And that's all that's going on now and then. Once the brother, once cells brother, is killed in a road rage accident that has nothing to do with anything, everyone gets paranoid and everyone starts killing everybody. And, you know, somehow they think poor, innocent, his history professor in the making, babe is involved and he's not. So, yeah, that's our whole set. And we've we've, like, reveled up this 45 minute tension and then boom it's just going to go it's just going to release. And it is so oh my God. The back half of this movie is just some of my favorite filmmaking in all 70 cinema. But what's your take when we like meet Zell and you know, I love the reveal of him. It's like standing looking out the window. I love all that. It's a creepy. It's the it's the production design that's that got me. It's like you're you're you don't know anything about this. But there's just like these skulls in this dentistry, and then there's, like, animals and you don't you just get a sense that something is not right here, like, and and and that's all you need to know. Because if you knew too much, then when you get to like, the big, you know, scene, there's it safe scene like you put together what this guy's torture tactics are. And you're like, oh man. Because you think back to the, the, the house. And that production design and it's like all it's all coming. It's all clicking. This is this is what he did. As in, you know, in the, in the camps. This is how he like tortured people. Now. So it's just it's just yeah. It's just great filmmaking for all that. It totally is. And then wondering, why is he why is he cutting his hair? Like, what is going on? Like like this? Yeah. He's like, he's dressing up kind of in that woman's outfit to escape. Like what? Yeah. What's what? What is. Yeah. This thing is bizarre. There have been some, like, subtle click news things that you hear on TV. Like it's all the famous Memphis Nazi, like that stuff, but you maybe not are not connecting it. So yeah. Right. When Zell is coming out of deep hiding and coming to New York City, that's right around the time doc is. It's right around the time babe is falling in love for the first time. And it's right around the time baby and his new love get attacked in central Park by two goons dressed in suits. Very odd, I have to say. The the way that the editing of the burgeoning romance between these two, it's one of the best I've ever seen in a movie where you're spending a certain amount of time like, we don't love it. Yeah, it clearly isn't like months, but it's definitely weeks. Yeah, yeah. And like from when they meet at Columbia to like, holy fucking, you know, follows her and talks around. Yeah. I got your name and address from a book. I hope that's okay. Like, if she keeps coming and she's like, why are you still here? But, it's like when you finally when they go on the date, you've just given us the CliffsNotes version of, like, how the relationship starts, but it works. And the editing and pacing. So you never once feel this. I didn't feel like, that feeling of, like, what are we just going through time right now? Like, right where it was like, no, this is. Yup. Like, oh, now it's been now they're here. And that, this is so cool. And then, yeah, then they end up getting attacked. But it's like very, very good, decision to do that because I can only imagine, like, in the script. Like that would freak me out as a writer. Like if I was like, how do I how do I get across that these two are falling in love? Or, you know, even though she's up to no good. But that's that's besides the point. Like for Dustin Hoffman's character, they're falling in love. And you need to get that across writing. And you're like, I don't know how to do this. Like, how do I make this clear without being like, let me tell you, let me tell. It's well-written. In this source novel, straight from the straight screenplay, he writes a few letters to doc. They they are close. He has no idea what doc does. He thinks stock is an oil salesman. You get. I love that the movie never explained why he's Doc and Dustin Hoffman is babe like they explained that the book. I like that stuff. It's their little their little own thing. But yeah, it's hard. It's hard to have those meet cute and to make them like that's one of the hardest things because it's so conventional. You've seen it a million times and they handle it really well. Exactly. Yeah. Well, cross-cutting the danger of what the hell is doc up to in Paris? Who the hell is this white angel? Of course, he needs to disguise himself a cool little, fact from the book. Not only is this his first time cell in New York, it's his first time in America. He's never been to America. Yeah. So it's so he's terrified, thinking he's going to get robbed of this fortune. Is it safe? And then about 45 minutes into the movie, doctor, some I'm going to do to you at some point. Oh, he's said the apartment. I wake him up. What would you do if I snuck in? Dude, it's like like I like, literally road I go, that's such a fucked up prank. Oh my god. And say, like, fucking goes over with the pillow. You just fucking with him? Yeah. He lunges like, how did you get it? I'm like key. Like he gave me a key, asshole. Oh my God. I, this is a great scene though, for so many reasons. Like, this is, Well, yeah. We're like, okay, they're connected. They're brothers. All right. Now, that's the first time we're learning that. We're like, all right. And then I actually sent you a video, a short video of this scene when they are arguing because it's so brotherly, like they do the, the slap fighting in the, fuck, you wake me up and then back and forth, and then it quickly turns in to an argument about that, like, let go of this shit. I bet you still have his gun. And then when he when he's, you know, chastising doesn't off and about. What are you doing? Get out of this shit hole place. Who's who's this woman you're dating? What's your name? Olga. And giving him all this shit. And then Hoffman's like, what do you want to do, be a businessman like you? The way that Scheider looks in him, and he's like, no, no. And just dismisses him right away like, no, I don't want you to be like me. I don't, and I don't want you to be like dad, like I you feel that dynamic of the brotherhood between them? Yes. So. Well, so, not and and the extra gear of, like, this guy raised him after their died. Dad died by suicide. Doc raised him. And you've just. It comes across so. Well. What's this one bullshit for your thesis or some interviews about dad? I like your arena. Not interested. Why not? I just want you to read it. You're never going to face it all. You. The old man is dead. He was a drunk. He killed himself. Yeah, doc, but he didn't start to drink until after the hearings. Try hitting the intercom to be know. Look, I got from friends. Where were those people when he needed them? They were afraid, like everybody else. You think he wanted you to be throwing your life away on this shit? I don't think I'm throwing it away. You are nothing you're going to write. He's going to change you. I can't. You give me the courtesy to read. It's over. Forget. I what do you want me to do? Become a corporate hustler like you? Well, what? I like to throw thrown away anyway, it's. It's really, really difficult. It's not difficult. You know, if you have good actors, but that idea of, like, you have to, in order to feel this relationship in one scene, make you feel like these two are really brothers, like they've lived together and they've grown up like this. It's a difficult thing to achieve. And like, this might be one of my favorite examples of it because it's like, this is we've never seen these two together come in from a ridiculous prank like this, but to everything you're saying, like where it goes. Because as soon as they start, like, interacting with each other, it's like, oh, these are not just brothers. They're close. Yeah, like they love each other. They've been through things together. That kind of relationship is it's it's so well done. And because they don't have many scenes together. And you feel this, bro. Yeah, yeah. It's this there's like. And then the other ones, they're like quick but they're there. Yeah there's lunch and then when is bleeding out I mean but yeah it's this and it's, it's even like get us some glasses. And then he goes, oh do I have to hear another like lecture about Bordeaux. No, this is so we're getting all this stuff of I get the bed. Of course you do. Yeah. It's so lived in. They've done this like so many times. This place is a mess. Like, you know, and just giving him shit about stuff, giving a shit about still having the gun and all this. And of course, the guns going to come back into play later because it has to, because we're in a thriller and it's. Yeah, it's a really good scene. It's very tender and it's hard to sell people to to sell this relationship. In this relationship, we have to believe this. We have to believe that they're so close that ultimately we know as the audience and as the reader of the book, if the only reason doc comes back when he's bleeding out is just to see his brother, the only thing he loves. Yeah. And he says his name twice and then dies. He does not. He never tells his brother about his real job, about diamonds, Nazis. He has no idea. But everyone else thinks that he does. That's what's gonna. Yeah. You know, kick all this into high gear. But I love him. He goes, the next day, I'm going to take you and Elsa out to lunch. Now, when we cut to that lunch scene of them the next day, having lunch up until this point, the movie's been, as you said, not really months, but weeks have been passing by of this spy shit going on. But then also of Babe and Elsa meeting and falling in love. Now from lunch to the end of the movie is one day. That's it. You don't know that things are going wrong yet, but things are about to go very, very wrong. Beginning with doc sniffing Elsa out immediately in such an ingenious way exactly as it is written in the book. And it is fucking. It's just brilliant. You see him setting her up, and I love that I've made all this up. Oh, and, you know, babes. Like what? What the hell's going on? Oh, my God, it's so good. I love it there. There's a I track this one look is when he, When they're in the apartment talking in the scene before, reciter asks Hoffman about the people who attacked him and what were they wearing? And he suits when they when he says suits. You see, Roy Scheider is sort of like he knows. Oh, yeah, you don't get attacked, you don't get mugged. Robbed, you know, by guys in suits unless like, and and the only thing that could possibly because Dustin Hoffman is not going to attract that kind of heat now. So. And the only possible explanation for that it must be Elsa. Yeah. So that's, that's what I clocked at least was sort of like when he says that he puts together in a look, it's like she might not be trustworthy. That was a question I had for you. When do you think doc suspects her? I always think from the minute he hears about her, probably in the well, probably. I'm like, all right, he's fallen in love this quick. She's this gorgeous. And she fell for my goofy younger brother like elegant jumped by guys. This this all sounds too neat and convenient. And my work's going crazy because. Yeah. And that's also really quick to point out. That letter is great. That's a great little scene because that's, that's a very, very real thing. I think what Dustin Hoffman's like, you know, in the end, especially in his voice, when he's like, you know, it's it's all voice over. But he's like, you know, I really thought, you know, for like the first time, like a, like, I really kill these guys, like, I, I would I want to, you know, it's it's a very real thing to admit out loud in that way. And you get that, but you also get like how this he's just this innocent, like little get kid, basically. Yeah. He's harmless. Yeah. Nerdy historian. Yeah. No real confidence. Yeah. That's that's when I. But you're probably right, though, because I think that even if it wasn't even all that, I'm sure someone in his line of work, no matter who comes into your brother's life, you'd be like, what are they about? Oh, yeah. Yeah. You trust just one? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. No coincidences. Which is so interesting that he's always on his guard and the lunch goes terribly. He's made Elsa mad. She stormed out, he's made his brother mad. And then we just cut to how he's outside and it's dark in the fountain. But we're with Olivier, with arousal. And why is he keeping me waiting? Then he shows up and he seems dark. Roy Scheider. So, like, I'm in charge here. He's so cavalier. I don't give a fuck what you think, can I? Yeah, I know, and he doesn't just like us. Doesn't see it coming that this Nazi bastard has gotten him literally physically close enough to. We don't know yet what it is to stab him and just take him out. And it's such a surprise because you think Doc's going to be like this hero, and you go, oh, man, the badass got taken out, by the evil Nazi. It's a great scene. And and I made a note here just real quick. Like when Olivier, we cut to a wide shot of him, kind of like tripping out of the stab, like he's moved the knife out, and he trips, and then he doesn't stop in one fluid movement, he, like, gets his footing back and then walks off with his guys with Carl and her hand like, oh, it's so good. He's such a good fucking actor. Oh my. Is, it's it's it's down to everything. There was, I, I the sound also of the stabbing. There's something that they do, but there's like, because he because because he says like, can I be candid? I don't give a fuck. And when he says, fuck that, it's on the line. Fuck. But there's like this weird sound that it makes. It's almost like it almost kind of sounds like a, like a weird drill. Like a dentist's drill. Will we see it later when he stabs old guy on the street? We see it. So it's the sound of the blade, like coming out. It's like. Yeah. And then he sticks him. So it's like the sound of the blade moving and then it going into him, and I but I wonder if there was an added sound effect that they put in. Oh yeah. Sure. Because there was something it was just so jarring. It was so jolting, but in the way of like a, like that dentist drill idea, like I was like, oh, man, there's something here in the sound. What really, it's meant to point out in the lunch, I love the, when he's sussing her out and he's talking about something and and he goes, you're sure you're 100% sure? Like he like you just like it. He's so nice and cool about. He goes, you sure you're 100% sure about that? It's made all this up. It's made all this up. There is no. And Hoffman's like, What? Yeah, it's a lovely. It's so good. I'm not really that familiar with Switzerland, but part of you from a tiny place. Thank you. Thank you for being. Yeah. Oh, I don't believe it. What I just got it works in my office. A ski bum, a real pain in the ass about skiing. Excuse me, but he's always going on about Verbier. That's right. At the mount of the foot of Mount. Rosa, isn't it? He says some of the best skiing in the world. Is that true? Of course. You are 100% right. Yeah, sure. I mean, you must not the smooth instructor there. Have you skiing with him? Yeah. Where is it? Verbier. Verbier? I've made all this up. There is no mountain. Rosa. Verbier. And there is no cloud. Monsieur, you're not Swiss. What are you? What are you? You're not. You're not Swiss. What are you? Isn't it obvious? I'm German, and she like knowing her role in it. She's being pretty fucking cool too, you know, I love that she's still making excuses. This is why I lied, babe. This is why I lied. It's so good. And he's just seeing right through her. And. Yeah, I mean, he gets he gets iced out, shows up to Babe's apartment, says his name a few times, and, I mean, but you got to, like, think of this through Babe's perspective. He's the only person he cares about in the world is shown up now. He he discovered his dad after he died. So now this trauma's coming back, then these goons show up. This guy Jamie, this guy Jamie. I was your brother. He showed up talking about this fucking thing. The division, talking about skillet. Scalia. Get that, which is his brother's codename. And now we learn what the division is, and it's like, What? What's all this shit going on? And then here's another thing I want to ask you about now. Once you eventually know what Janie's motivation is, he seems like this is the first time that someone's trying to go. All right, I know that this little pipsqueak knows about if he's going to rob you tomorrow's hell. So let me try to get it out of him. They're just trying. And he does it poor off and knows nothing about any of this. Anything. He thinks his brother is an oil salesman, and it's, God, it's it's great watching him sit there. Talk to him. Devane. Talk to Hoffman is crap. Come on. They've been living for two hours. He's losing it. It's a great. It's honestly, it's a really good acting scene from Hoffman in that role. That moment. Because, like, he. You really feel that he's dealing with, like, all of the emotions that his, his number one person in his world is dead. Like died like in his arms. Now he's being questioned, doesn't know what's going on. There's confusion and and and you can just see it in his body is trembling. His like outburst but then apologizing for it. It's just very, very well done. And then all the while this he had this guy, he's just sort of like, I want to make you bait. Well, what I any of you know, I think they're going to come and try to find you. So that's. He just admits it. Like the guys who killed your brother are going to come for you because they think your brother told you something. So I'm going to use you as bait, which I don't know. I mean, I guess, but if if I'm babe used as bait, that gun is, like, on me, and I ain't taking no fucking bass. But, you know, it's thriller, but he takes that and it's like, I mean, God, it's so terrifying. The when he. It's so well written too, but he decides like, oh, I can scream because he's like, help, help. And he starts screaming and it means nothing. Oh yeah. God that that scene to me is more terrifying than the dentist scene. Oh yeah. Because you're trapped in your own place and, like, can't get out of the shitty window. And the only thing he has is like, I have to open this fucking door and try to run through it into the dark. That's the I have a gun. But it's also on the other side of the room. I'm naked like, this sucks. Yeah, yeah, it's terrible dude. And it's just even the build up. I think that the reason why it works when, you know, it's like, why would he take a bath? Well, clearly it's kind of like an established, like, this is what this guy does. It's his. That's his relaxing thing, his baths. But, yeah, I mean, it's which they do like they do, like, make that a thing. So that's good. But, it's because because he asks, the guys like, when they're coming after me, they come back to me tonight. He goes, now, I wouldn't be tonight. No. So he's lulled into his sense of like safety. So, so taking a bath, like I don't think he would take a bath if he wasn't reassured that he'd be safe for tonight. And he was reassured under false pretenses because we. So. Good point. We come to like that Janey is crooked as well. So he's trying to know, like, let your guard down. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. So so. Okay. Yeah. He does that again. So I was fooled by the plot and all. It all tracks. It all makes sense. But when you see those lights start to turn off and he's just stuck in the tub and like, one by one, I mean, and then it's just like everything that happens, like it's just this really. It goes back to like the, the scene with the people watching the murder happen is like, these guys are come in and okay, like you've got like the like you're naked, but you've you've closed the door, but then now they're just coming in like, it's just like that in the little like that, that the, the tool that they're using to pry a little crowbar. Yeah. And the sound again. Oh. Yup. And it's just all there and you're like there's just nowhere to go. And. Yeah. And the only thing you can do is just run straight out. I mean, oh man. Oh. Oh. Oh, please. Oh, run straight out. His attackers from the park start to drown him in his own bathwater. And then we are given one of my favorite jump cuts to one of my favorite shots in all of 70s drowning, drowning, drowning in the tub to boom! It's dark, but we can kind of see something kind of make out that it's Hoffman's face, and it's maybe tied down to a chair in the camera. It's just like panning out, moving out, moving out, moving out. Lights. Come on. Oh, I mean, Five Easy Pieces has the diner scene. Taxi driver, as you talking to me? French Connection as the car chase. Marathon man has a dental torture scene. And it is one of the most iconic scenes in the history of movies. And we're going to open it up now to. Is it safe? Because the lights come on. Poor babe is tied down. The goons come in first. They're setting towels up, then Olivia just walks in. It's all the grace, all the casualness in the world washing his hands and keeps saying the same three words in the form of a question over and over and over, with no context, no variation, saying it very politely and we really don't have any idea why yet. You may get through the whole damn movie and not understand what it's safe means, but asking someone first, he's to, Hoffman can't even see him. He's behind him, you know. Is it safe? Is it safe is what's safe is. Yeah. Are you talking to me? Yes. It's so safe. No, it's not safe. I it's just it's brilliant. It's absolutely brilliant way. There's very few shots used, very little editing cuts used. And we're just leading up to this thing of like, what the fuck is about to happen? And it happens. Wow, I love it. Laurence Olivier acting is so good that when he's washing his hands, he like, that's the of all the things that I take from that scene is the way that he washes his hands. I like you've you've been in doctor's offices where doctors come in and they do it in such a way, like I don't ever wash my hands like doctors do like that, I don't know, it's like there's just something that the way they get their forearms in the waves kind of like do like this. I just like what I would I what I'm proposing is I bet you that that's not at all how Laurence Olivier actually washes his hands in real life as the chair. Yeah. The way that he watches, the way that a dentist washes his hands, is not the same way that a car mechanic will wash his hands. Like just watching the specificity and how that looks and being like, I've seen that. I've seen doctors wash your hands just like that. It's and it's it's seen so far away. I know, I know, and he's so gentle too, with the washing the hair. Yes. Drying it all. Yes. Even when he grabs the correct tools and goes up to him and he's very nice, like, no, it's okay. Like moving his hands like, open your mouth open and you know, oh, you have, you have a cavity here, like I see. Is it safe? For talking to me? Is it safe to say. Is it safe? I don't know what you mean. I can't tell you if something is safe or not. Unless I know specifically what you're talking about. Is it safe? Tell me what it refers to. Is it safe? Yes. It's safe. It's very safe. So if you wouldn't believe it. Is it safe? And just giving him this, like, gentle cleaning. And we're. We're going. Oh, man. And again, just like it's terrifying when the guys are breaking in because it's so real. We've all that our fucking teeth clean. We've all had someone in there who we don't know that well, like in our mouth, who can probably if something goes wrong or if they were a sadistic Nazi bastard, inflict a great amount of pain without us being able to do anything. So yeah, William Goldman is building out his idea for villain, and he's got his villain, Nazi, and he has a he makes him like a dentist. And then he again serendipitously has a dental appointment and goes into his dentist. Is the real William Goldman, who he's been going to for years. And the guy asks, are you working on anything new? So he tells him that he's getting his teeth cleaned about this dentist Nazi. And, you know, I think he's going to go into a cavity. And the dentist, when they were done, they're talking in the lobby and the dentist says, so you could have him go into a cavity. That would hurt. However, the nerves of a cavity are already dying. The most painful thing anyone can do in a healthy mouth is drill into a perfectly healthy tooth. If you do that, there are so many live nerve endings that are in there. If you did that to someone, they would. They will wish death. They will rather be dead than endure that torture more. Oh yeah, he takes this in his head and Doctor Crichton's out and it's just, oh, bad. It's so it's such an iconic scene again. They shot way more of it, and it is way more gruesome. In the book. He goes into that cavity seven times, pokes it. You know, he does it more in the movie, but we only see the once one time of doing it. And then we kind of cut out and you know, he's got the cloves, the oil of cloves, like how good I can give you torment or anguish, like, or, you know, pleasure or anguish. The choice is yours. And then, man, it's like the torture is done. That was a lot like sitting there smelling salts versus the you still get the oil and here comes Jamie in the back shots. Jamie with this gun drawn by the memory that stands out the most to me from Marathon Man. The first time I watch it is Jamie coming and saving the day. Shoots one guy, stabs another guy gets out, gets in the car. I didn't notice this the first time, but it's just making a lot of left turns. Left turn, left turn, left turn. Trying to get this information out of babe, you know, what do you know? And then we hear about cell, this evil dentist. He tortured people at Auschwitz, and, you know, he's done. He's on his way here. He's here, damn it. He did it. You know, just tried to explain my most vivid memory of the movie is not. Is it safe? It is Janie making that, I guess. Fourth left hand turn back where we started in the goon said he just killed. Pulls off it out of the car. Yeah, and it's so well written in the book because it says three minutes later he was back in the chair chapter break and you're like, oh, he's there's something worse than this. And the real torment of the, like, movie and torture scenes isn't what's just happened. It's we we thought it's done. And now no way. That was a warm up. Wait for this cowboy. Oh it's brutal. Yeah, it's just brutal getting him back in the way again. Olivia, just very carefully with the drill, testing it out. Yeah. Terrifying. Oh, yeah. That's right on that front tooth. Oh, God. Yeah, that's a great way in the book. Like, three minutes later. Back in the chair. Back in the chair? Yeah. And he's so gentle and so clean. Olivia was so very precise and wanted to be, you know, very gentle and clean. And they're just it's really an iconic scene. It's brilliantly staged to, again, not a lot of cuts. And I love you know they bring out the drill. And he explains like, rest assured I'm not going into that dying tooth anymore. I'm going to go into a perfectly healthy tooth and then, you know, get to goes up, zoom into the light, but then boom, it's just a hard cut to the torture done. And he's like, he knows nothing. He would have told me if you did. It's been a waste of time. And he's like, mad sells mad. That he doesn't know anything. He would have told me, get rid of him. It's great. It's great. Yeah. And what is he going to do now? Babe's got no more friends, psycho Jane, he's in on it. And we get to Devane. Just talking to Olivia.

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00 flight tomorrow. You could. What if I could do my work by that? I love just talking to him like you're a sick Nazi. Fuck. I don't give a shit about you. Get out of my. You know you're causing too much trouble. It's great. Just government deception. Shit. Yeah. You know, it's funny. I remember was, like, the first time I saw it. I remember that scene. And I remember thinking that this scene wasn't a big deal. Like the very first time I saw it. Like, I was like, oh, this is that big scene that everyone talks about. And then I'm like, I don't know. I don't see what the big fuss is about now watching it. It's sort of like, no, this scene is just really fucking good. Oh, it's so well done. Yeah, that's what I took away from it to me. I didn't really like. People will talk about that scene to be like, that's like one of the most terrifying scenes they've ever seen in the movie. I don't feel like that at all. I just think this scene is extremely well done. Yeah, maybe at the time, I think in 67 or sorry, I think it's 76. It probably was one of the most terrifying ever. But there's no blood. There's no it's all left up to our imagination. There's some screaming and stuff. Yeah, but it's mostly just that the acting. The acting. Yeah. That's what I mean. They're like, what I take from it is that it's really well done. And I know there are people out there that like, you know, that fear of dentists. I can see that this scene is going to be an issue for you. But I think because I go to the dentist every three months, I literally fall asleep in the chair. I'm like, like every dentist is like, Nick, I've never met anyone like you. I'm like, just do whatever you gotta do. They're like, that should hurt. Does that hurt? Like, oh, it hurts, so it hurts, but I don't care. Is it safe? Is it safe? I bet you every dentist, every dentist would just hate that. Like. Like. Yeah. You got to think, like. Is it? Yeah. You got to wonder if, you know, my dentist when I was 11, didn't know it. But you really have to wonder if, like, they just all know about it. They all know about this horrible torture scene. They probably like. It's probably like for a dentist, anytime someone say, is it safe to, like, shift the number down for you? Funny. Funny guy, funny guy. I've heard that one before, but a little torture. I'll get in that. Yeah, exactly. You know, babe, they they're out trying to get him in the car, and he uses the little skills that he has left at his disposal. He's a marathon, man. Fucking run, dude. Like rock and run and he. See, it's the only thing he's good at. And I it's it's a really it's really well done in the book. But you see him like, not in the movie without any, dialog having trouble finding his footing and then finding it and, like, getting it. And, you know, they're still coming after him, and he starts to make that, like, move on the bridge and all that stuff. And then, honestly, more, even more so than the torture scene, the thing I remembered most from the movie, basically, this dude going to his block and having his bully, playful tormentors rob his apartment. That is some of the most clever shit. I don't know if I'd seen it before in the movie, like it is so smart to call him up and they don't know who he is. And he's like, it's creepy, it's creepy. Fuck do you want? And then, you know, meeting in the stairs and you can rob my apartment. I need a change of clothes and my gun. You can have everything else and you know. Yeah. What's the catch? It's dangerous. And that's the fun. Yeah. It's great. It's a great line. I mean, what the fuck happened to you? This is. Man, that was. I want you to rob. What? There's some guys out there after me. I got a gun in my desk drawer, and I want to get some clothes. It's enough for me, man. I got a TV set, so if I shoot, you can take it home. Do it. Hey, what's the catch? The catch is it's dangerous. Please don't let the cats. It's the fun. They all just walk over there. The DeVayne. Yeah. Clear out of there. And he just. You could look away from the door, blowed out your ass, motherfucker. Yeah. Oh, but. Oh, my God, I love that. What's he gonna do? There's like seven. Exactly, exactly like there. Yeah. These outnumber. He's like, oh, I'm not going to win this one. Blow it out your ass, motherfucker. I love the way says that. It's so good. All right, you guys, let's go. Move out of there. Blow that, you ask, motherfucker. Yeah, and then I think, babe, starting to catch wind of things that are going on with Elsa. But they go out to this, you know, mysterious house in the country, and he just asks right out. Is is else like, as soon as they get their cells and she finally, you know, they have an argument and she finally admits her role in things. And you know, another thing that was really interesting to me from, the book is that he is a fucking ace with that pistol. He takes it to the range all the time, and he is extremely confident in his use of it. So when they show up, he's like, if I get him in the house, I'm going to fucking kill him. All like he has a very he's very confident in this. You don't get that as much. But you know. Oh interesting. Yeah. The Goon Show up. I love Devane. Are we supposed to take three giant steps forward or. It's just so funny. Yeah, I love it. It's so good. And then. Yeah, the big, like, you know, the paranoid thrillers kind of wrap it up. So we get the big shootout and this is. Oh, no, I'm not going to say exactly how, but different from the book in ways that I enjoyed because I'm so obsessed with the movie. But yeah, a little, little 70s shootout. They always get like, hit in the face of the 70s, that holy, God, it's just so good. It's a great shootout. Yes. Great. Really is. Remind, even though it's not the same at all, but reminded me of L.A. confidential. Oh, sure. Like, yeah. Yeah, I because it's not the way that that that shootout plays because it's very different. But it I don't know there was just something about it where like it just made me think. Curtis Hanson making L.A. confidential. It's like we got our shootout. Want to have some, like, Marathon Man vibes here? Yeah. Abandoned house. Like, there's the guns are driving up to the house. The heroes kind of waiting there. Yeah, I mean, I yeah, I have a note in here that our next big scene. Because once we get out of the house, we're back with Zell. Now Zell is. He's in the Uncut Gems Diamond district. I swear, some of those stories are the same. They're in Uncut Gems and, you know, going to this person, trying to find out he doesn't know the value of of his diamonds, so he's trying to figure it out. The scene of him in the street getting chased down like the first guy recognizes him, then the woman and their concentration camp survivors. I think Seinfeld made fun of that. I think they did like a shot for shot parody of it, of Kramer getting like, mistaken. Like it's this thing, like lives in the culture. And it is. Oh my God. Yeah. It's so well done. Yeah, yeah, it's so well done in the book. It's well done in the movie. It's great. What dude that I, I know that Seinfeld scene. Oh my God, that's hilarious. That's exactly what it's because there's a woman that's like yelling and doing, like, if you go back and watch the shots are like the same. They probably went, I don't know if they went to the same road or street, the Diamond District. But yeah, they've made fun of it. Like it's it's so funny that people latch onto the stuff and humanize these like horrific scenes later. But that's part of what happens. That's a great scene of him kind of like trying to play cool and not paying attention. And then, he gets the old guy, you know, he kills like so quickly and seems to take pleasure out of killing and torturing. Still makes me wonder what he's doing down there in South America. Like, is he still like experimenting? Is he still killing? Like, when was the last time Zell killed? You know, I wonder that. Yeah. Before. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. He's got a taste of it now. The evil German Nazi bastard. God, I hate him. But this time we see the wrist cutter come out. Slice. Great shot from underneath. You know, he gets that old guy. Oh, yeah. Gets him off in the cab. That one guy, too. Like you feel bad for him, too? I know, like, he's been through so much and he's still going to die from this guy. I know, damn it. It's. I know you, you murdering bastard. Then boom! Yeah, him slices him. And then. I mean, talk about good acting. Olivier's acting when he is in the safe deposit room and sees the diamonds. It's not joy. It's like jubilation. Like. Oh, yes, I mean, it's such good acting. And we. This guy is a fucking monster. Like this dude tortured people during the Holocaust and Auschwitz. Like he's a fucking evil monster. And it's still such good acting. You're like, oh, he's got a science. That's nice old guy. You're like, no, wait, wait a minute. Sin sucks. So this dude, that's what this whole thing. So this whole thing has been about, is it safe? Is it safe for me to get my diamonds and leave the bank and be on my merry way, or. I think your brother was planning to rob me now. Are you planning to rob me? Did he warn you that someone is planning to rob me? Is it safe? So what's the first thing you hear is when he walks out of the bank. Yeah. It isn't safe, babe, is there with a gun? Fuck you buddy, he survived. Yeah, I love it. I love those flashes of his tooth. Like it's so decayed. And, you know, he's, like, drilled into this all that same day. Keep in mind it's. They started with a bad lunch with his brother. Yup. Exactly. Yeah. He hasn't been too bad. Oh my God. He's like yeah. And then that's our. And we get our final showdown in the reservoir, which was written, by Robert Towne for the movie. It's different from the book. The book still ends in Central Park, but things are a little different, but I yeah, I love this. I mean, making him eat the diamond like it's. And then him defiantly saying no, like, it's just, it's so good if you like a lot of times you get like these movies where there's so many scenes that have already been done so well, you finally get to this end and it's like, all right, can we do we? How does this measure up to what we everything we've just seen already. And it does like it's. Oh yeah. It's just yeah. Note perfect. Note perfect. No. Perfect. It's always nice when your hero is not motivated by money. Which babe makes very clear he is not just got his favorite person like his. His brother was killed and then the love of his life was a fraud. So he. He's not interested in money, he's interested in justice. And, Yeah. It's great. Yeah. Like throwing them at him in the way. You know, Zelle is so, like, horrified at the diamonds falling. Yeah, yeah, that's my favorite. Yeah. Yep, yep. Go get him. Go get him. It's a brilliant. Yeah. You're right. Like we've already had. Is it safe. We've already had these like huge scenes. You know, the apartment being robbed. How do we top it. And it just goes out in a great style I love it, I love this film. I love Marathon Man so much. I'm so glad that I read the book. And, you know, I really can't. This is my personal favorite, Halston. But I can't understate overstate how significant Olivier is in this. I mean, this is a guy who was, like, renowned for his Shakespeare, for he made hamlet in 1948 and it won Best Picture. It's I mean, what an actor. And he again, not knowing if he was going to live like much longer. Yeah. Before we get to our categories, we got to talk about the infamous why don't you try acting darling story that went around and around and around and I'm so sick of this story. So yeah, I, I pulled up. It's on Wikipedia. Wikipedia actually has it. Correct because Hoffman re explained all of this in Inside the actor studio, and all he was doing was basically, he's going through a tough time, and he was spending a lot of nights at studio 54, and his character was supposed to be up and everything. So he was using that as a bit of an excuse for being tired and frazzled. And one day Olivier politely said, why don't you just try acting, darling? And yeah, it was, it was a playful thing, said in jest. You can see them rehearsing together in the special features on the Blu ray. They had a lot of reverence for each other, like, oh yeah. Olivier is moved to tears on his last day because they get, you know, have a cake and like a little award did they give him like, everything was all good. But it's so funny of that story is I still hear, hear people tell it incorrectly all the time. Like, well, he was half. He was supposed to be out of breath, so he ran for miles and then he told Olivier, did that. Olivier dismissively said, why don't you try acting, darling? And it just wasn't that. It wasn't that at all. It was a playful thing. Yeah, yeah. So that's that. It's good. It's good to give that story its proper context because. Because that's that's. I, I've heard teachers, acting teachers tell this story exactly the way you said it, where it's sort of like pointing out the difference in the, methods of acting. And it's like, it's not what it is at all. It was not some, like, stuffy British guy making fun of the method way of acting. It wasn't that that is what it has been misappropriated has. But that was never what it was. And it's just you just need to relax. I think it's true, though, that I mean, there are the difference between classical style acting and then method acting. That's a very, very big difference. But just not in this case. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They got along well making it the wa I w New Hollywood categories for marathon. You've got me excited. Here we go. What is your favorite thing that makes this a new Hollywood movie. Through I can go first if you want. Yeah. You go I mean it's more just exciting. Yeah. What I really wanted to pick this was not strictly in New Hollywood movies, but it became a thing to mix the young in the old, the new in the experience. Pacino, Brando. Oh, Nicholson. Randy Quaid. Yep. Like we saw this lot. And here you get Hoffman already established, hasn't won his Oscar yet, but he will. But he's on the come up with Laurence Olivier, widely regarded as one, if not the best performer ever. And you're seeing, as we just said, the classic British style where where the acting style is dependent entirely on the text. And you were looking at the text and that is motivating everything match with this American high Leigh Improvizational style that Hoffman was known for. I mean, I'm walking here. Midnight cowboy was improvised. That was not meant to happen. And that is the most famous scene of the movie that has, again, a scene that has nothing to do with the movie. But that was an improvization from him. So that's what I had. I mean, that and, you know, there are different examples of this. Like I consider Sterling Hayden was one of those older actors, but then he got into like the keys in The Godfather. So. Well, The Long Kiss Goodbye or the Long Goodbye. He's in like, so I like the older generation coming into this new stuff, this new Hollywood stuff. I love that about it. I think that that's the I'm going to agree and say, that's my answer for that too, because I never thought about that actually. Oh, that's actually very, very true. Is like you did like that. That really was that. And that wasn't a passing of the torch necessarily, right? No. But yeah, because my answer was like more like I was going with this idea that Dustin Hoffman's not exactly our hero of the story, in a way, because he he's just a poor guy who just got caught in something. Yeah. Wrong place, wrong time. Yeah. Like, yeah. Because by all measures, structurally speaking, Roy Scheider is actually the protagonist of the movie. Like we're following his journey, but then he dies. That's what makes his death so shocking. You're like, what the fuck? Yeah. So I so I was going to posit the most new Hollywood thing would be something along that line. It's sort of like he's actually the protagonist. But then now it's like a baton hand off to Hoffman. It's true to. But yeah, but yours is much better, though, because that actually speaks to the time period of what was actually happening and what made that a big deal. Yeah, even Burgess Meredith being in Rocky was it's the same type of thing I'm talking about, which was the same year, you know, what are we waiting for? What are we waiting for? That was the second one. Got it. And it was the second one. Yeah. Is this John Schlesinger's best film to me? Yes. I prefer it to midnight Cowboy. I love Marathon Man. So I will I have I want to go back and rewatch Midnight Cowboy because it's been a while since I've seen that. Yeah, that one back in. Yeah. So if we're having all these kind of experiences going back to these movies that we just haven't seen in a long time, then I'll reserve my comment until after I see Midnight Cowboy. But then with that, as of right now, then I would say that this is, Yeah, shushing Larry. As best I know, it's a tough one. Here's what I can't do from him. A kind of loving darling midnight cowboy Sunday, bloody Sunday. I said it the day the Lucas Marathon man, the Falcon and the snowman watch for the first time. Tim Hutton and Sean Penn. It's essentially a true story version and a dramatic version of Brad Pitt trying to sell the Russian secrets and burn after reading. And I'm not joking. It's like a serious wow, look at that. It's a real story. And Sean Penn's got this really high pitched voice up here. He's crazy. I just watch it for the first time. The believers with Martin Sheen. Just watch that. Not very good. Pacific Heights evil Michael Keaton God, I love that film. 1990. For an eye revenge thriller with Sally field. That is not good. And the next best thing with Madonna was his last movie. Oh, so those are all the John s movies I've seen. Where does where does Michael Keaton's, Pacific Heights performances a bad guy compare with Desperate Measures? Oh, yeah. I mean, it's kind of in the same vein, but Pacific Heights is a prestige like it. It was loosely attached to my erotic thriller episode, because it's not really like he, Melanie Griffith and, Besser. I don't want to look it up. I don't remember, is it Matthew Modine, Melanie Griffith, and Matthew Modine? Maybe I'm not looking it up. They buy, like a house in San Francisco, and it's, like, beautiful and they're going to rent it out to tenants. And he moves in and he's the tenant from hell. He and he won't leave. And he is like, oh wow. Great. He it's on. That's fun. Pacific Heights is so easy to find. But he's like I mean, in Desperate Measures. It's like an escape movie. Like, you know, he's on time and it's kind of a caricature. Pacific Heights. He's like an evil motherfucker. And you're going, what are you going to take for this dude? Leave. I love Civic Heights. It's probably my third favorite Mexican movie after it go marathon, bad Midnight Cowboy, maybe Pacific Heights. I mean, that's awesome. It's really good. Yeah. Oh, I love it. I fucking love it. I know this is a the I love Michael Keaton. I feel like Keaton was one of my all time favorite actors. Always. It's like over ten years. The motherfucker should have had an Oscar. You ruined it. God. It's ruined. I can't even look at that name or say the name Eddie Redmayne without getting mad. That really was. He didn't deserve it. It was so it was just right. It's, Man, and I don't think Keaton will get nominated again. Maybe. I hope I'm wrong, but it was. It was so. It was just bad, man. They had it right there. It was perfect for him. I would have rather that won that Oscar than picture director or screenplay. Birdman we're talking about, obviously. Anyway, whatever. Love Michael Keaton. I'll do a whole part on him. I don't care, I'll do it right now. Nope. Sorry. I start recording right. Do you ever do it right in front of your faces? All right. Is this the actor's best performance? I've spoiled that. Yes. I think this has been my favorite Dustin Hoffman performance since I saw this movie years ago. I hear a I mean, come on, it's Dustin Hoffman. But, you know, Midnight Cowboy, he's hiding. He's hiding behind an accent behind a limp behind. I'm not saying hiding like it's bad, but there there are other things here. There's nothing to hide behind. And marathon Man, he's totally exposed, which is I mean, even in Rain Man there you're. You have crutches to fall back on. You're hiding behind a very, very deliberate character. Things like Kramer versus Kramer, marathon man, there's no hiding. That's all. It's all I'm saying. I'm not saying Raymond's a bad performance at all, but, you know, I love Babe and Marathon man, I love him. I really love Kramer versus Kramer for his performance. I think I give Hoffman that so interesting to be my favorite. That's where he won his first Oscar for yeah. Kramer versus Kramer. Good win. Yeah. What happened to them in marathon man it's not really it doesn't really apply. But I get old William Devane here is Jamie love William Devane. This he's a good, theater actor. Broadway, Off-Broadway. Marathon man was one of his first early movies. Family plot. The same year, he was in Alfred Hitchcock's final film. Same year he's in McCabe, Mrs. Miller. But people. Whoa. The next year, 1977, William Devane is the star of a masterful thriller called Rolling Thunder. It is one of Tarantino's favorite movies. Go really watch Rolling Thunder. Here it is. Let me give you the set up. I'll be as quick as I can. DeVayne. World War two? Nope. DeVayne was a prisoner of war in Vietnam for many years as a gift of. Because he's been released. He's at home now, you know. Welcome home. Wife here, kids here. And as a gift, they've given him, like a coin. I think for each day he was in prison. And it's it's no slouch like this. It's a lot of money like, you know, so let's say I don't know the amount. Let's call it $20,000 in coins. Okay? Is that a parade? The next day, these fucking goons, country goons come in, steal the coins, put his fucking hand in a garbage disposal. Done. So this dude survived years in a Vietnam P.O.W. camp. So they do that, kill it, kill his family. Then he's got to go to his old POW buddy played by hoo hoo Tommy Lee Jones. And they got to go out and get revenge. And what is Tommy Lee Jones say when William Devane shows up at his house and says, I gotta, you know, I got these people kill my family. Tommy Lee Jones looks at him and goes, well, I'll just get my gear. He goes and gets a bag and he's ready to fucking go. Rolling Thunder rocks. I love William Devane. He didn't go anywhere. I mean, he's in payback with melodies and space cowboys. Hollow man plays the president in The Dark Knight Rises. He's in interstellar love. William. Oh my God, I love William Devane. I was a friend of your brother's. My name is Peter Janeway, but you can call me Janie. All of my friends do. Sure. You're not overusing your somewhat limited imagination? Oh, I just don't. You fucked up a tennis game. We won't be playing doubles for a while. Cells brothers been killed and had an accident with an oil truck. I know exactly how doc made his living, and the closest he ever came to the oil business was when he filled up with his friendly neighborhood gas station, and everything worked out fine until his brother got killed in a head on collision with an oil truck.

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00 flight. You are a very confident young man. It's all a front. Just think of me as any other young executive. How about you? Sorry. I kind of went off. I mean, rolling on the rocks. I guess I'll get my gear. So my family got. I'm going to work on it. I should've done the whole, It's. You don't get in the vein. No, I should've done. The whole thing is I won't be able to handle it all the way. I could do it up here. Olivia. Okay. You sorry? What happened to them? Who do you got? I mean, that was. That would be my answer. Would be him. Like they happen it like. Yeah. Yeah, I'll use around. Trust me. I'll give you plenty of vein content if you want. But favorite scene or shot? I've actually I kind of touched on them that the first time I saw the movie, the things that stuck out in my head, most scenes were Janey doing the lefts and showing back up where he was, and then the the kind of in. I thought it was so clever when Hoffman called the talk, you know the the fuck with three guys and rob my part. Yeah, yeah, I love that. My single favorite shot, no question. It's one of my favorite shots of the 70s that cut to the Hoffman tied up were still relatively pitch black. And we are moving away from him. And then boom, those fucking lights go on. What world are we in now I love that. Yeah, he's tied down that chair. Jesus. Favorite scene. It's got to be the the home break in. In the bathtub. Yeah, I think that's my favorite. But then I'm also going to give it to the start that that that car scene. Nice. I really love that. I just love that they like it. Just the attention to detail that they gave that to make that a whole entire thing, which ultimately like, to your point, means absolutely nothing except this guy's dead. Yeah, but it's so. Well, like, that was where, like, when the movie started, you got, like, Dustin Hoffman running, you got the menacing score. I'm like, okay, okay. But then we're just like two minutes into this and it's not stopping. It's just growing this one. Yeah, yeah. And I'm like, what? Like that's why I wrote like this is madness, right? It is what is happening. And then it just goes until the fucking oil rig fucking fucking truck explodes. So, so yeah, so but I but yeah, I got to give it to the bathtub because that's just pure terror. Like. Just like you're really put in that, like, unbelievably vulnerable position I love. Yeah. No disagreement for me, I love that I love that that's your pick. Yeah. Favorite quote I'm not trying to be as obvious as possible, but come on. Is it safe? It's the best. So iconic to me, brother. I'm gonna I'm gonna. I'm going to school you right now. Oh, really? I'm going to go. Okay. Sure, sure. I'm late. I can't wait till you to school. Me? Yes. Of course. Is it safe? Is. I can, of course. But if I had to go. And actually saving. My favorite line is there's two of them. We talked about one already. Roy Scheider. Are you sure you're 100% sure. I'm 100% correct on that. Okay. But also there's a really great line that the professor has. That I, I didn't I had to look it up because I remember when I was watching, I go, that's a great fucking line. But so the actual line is, how am I to fathom your mind if you continue to hide it from me? If you persist, I'll conclude you're a drone. They have a great relationship in. Yeah. The book it goes on for a few more. I'll say the the most surprising thing that I inclusion for him, because I was surprised he's only in one scene of the movie. I'd forgotten that. And that conversation is kind of, a it's a condensed conversation of three conversations they have in the book. Like he walks him home to his house. Most tellingly, when he escapes from cell and is on the run, he goes to his house to hide out and to get a change of clothes. And they have a nice kind of conversation. So it's it's cool. They you know, he's definitely still like the intellectual asshole in the book, but there is an admiration between both of them because of Babe's father. Yeah. Good quote. I like that you pulled that one. Here we go, folks. You're welcome. Here we go. The Y W and DHT, the Nicholas Doe still hot take. I think he's already laid a few on us so far. But we're going to get, you know, the more scorching, the better. Does it have to make sense? Does it have to track? Absolutely not. The hotter the better. Give it to us. Whoof. All right, so this isn't necessarily a take, but I'm going to pose the question. That's fair. Hot question. It can be any question you want it to be. This is your time to shine. Is it possible. Oh sorry. Is it possible that low key Roy Scheider is the actor of the 1970s? Wow. Think about the career. Yeah. Leading leading man. Kind of persona and style, but intentionally never wanted to be that. He was cast in jaws because Spielberg was trying to do exactly what he did with Jurassic Park. He wanted the dinosaurs to be the star. The shark is the star of jaws. That's why you don't see Steve McQueen in that part, or someone really, really big in that part. I mean, you know what? I'm you know what I'm going to say here? We got Klute, The French Connection, the Seven UPS, which is a great, cop thriller. Also from the 70s. Jaws, Marathon Man, sorcerer, jaws two, which he is not bad. And Last Embrace early Jonathan me movie and all That Jazz, which is might be his best performance, and that's his starring performance and that's how he ends the decade. So I love Roy Scheider. He's one of my all time favorite lover to. Yeah. And I guess what I'll say is whenever you see him, I just know I'm in good hands. Like I watched a movie called Blue Thunder for this, which I never seen, where he's in LAPD Helicopter pilot. Not a very good movie, but he's great in it. I love 2010, the sequel to 2001, because he's great in it. Like, I love Roy Scheider. So yeah, I mean, those two movies I just mentioned are 80s movies, but I'd go with your theory that I think he was definitely the best character actor of the 70s. I do it, it's it's just one of those things where he's like, you like you have like these actors like Al Pacino and Jack Nicholson, where it's like, okay, clearly these guys like, dominated, like this was their decade. But that's why I say low key, because Roy Scheider is like jaws is arguably like one of the biggest movies of all time, certainly one of the biggest movies of the 70s. And, you know, you're talking French Connection. You're talking like these movies that are like monumental movies that he's in. It's sort of like on paper, is Roy Scheider really got like, skin in the game of that conversation? Yeah. Because no one's going to talk about him like that. So that's why it's the it's the hot question. Take the hot take question. And if you watch all those roles like you can't talk shit about him, you're like, damn, that dude's authentic like that. Who's authentic as hell? Yeah. While we're here, I made a note of it. I've been meaning to say this on a few podcasts. This has nothing to do with anything except Roy. Well, I love you, too. Okay. We were going to have movie night, Ali and I. And my wife is not a movie person. She had never seen jaws. Never seen it, just never seen music, but had never seen it. I just bought the 4K by pure coincidence. So I go, let's do this. Like, let me put it on, put it on. For a woman who's never seen it, this movie's exactly 50 years old. Her cell phone was never touched. It was never thought about it was never looked at. She was completely fucking engrossed for two hours and screamed in terror when Quint got killed. Like, could not believe it. And she loved it so much, she just. She couldn't. And I'm like, yes, it still works. Movies that were good then are still good now. And she goes, that's like probably one of the best movies I've ever seen. And I'm like, I know, that's why it's jaws, but it's so crazy how it can just hold up. And she loved him in it. She loved it. He was not like a typical, you know, hero of like, movies. She loved him. So when she saw me watching, she see me watching, talking about French Connection and now Marathon Man, she's like, what is your deal with this guy? I'm like, oh, that's yeah. Let me tell you about Roy fucking Roy, loved by Scheider. And I don't think we're going to be in this, you know, new Hollywood film project of ours. I don't think we're done talking about Roy, but I love him. Great question. Great. Hot question there. You know, my first exposure to Roy Scheider was, I want to guess not a movie. SeaQuest. SeaQuest. I've never seen it. Okay. He was on 47 episodes of seaQuest. All right. You loved you on stage there, Jonathan Brandis? Yep. Jonathan Brandon. Michael Lewis. And actually, Sam Raimi was a cast of as a series regular on that show, executive produced by Spielberg. I've never seen it. You watch a lot of these, like, 90s stuff? Oh, yeah. I'm still completely in the movies, I love that. So you had a relationship with him as that, as Captain Nathan Bridger. Bridger? Yep. That's right. Yeah, I mean, I, I remember liking that show when I was a kid, but I guarantee you it's bad. I think if you went back and watch it now, like it's a Star Trek ripoff. Yeah, yeah. And not a good one. Even, like, I like. Yeah. Even like then I'd be like, oh, this is I mean, literally Star Trek seaQuest. I mean, it's the same fucking thing. Fucking thing. Yeah, yeah. Did you look up marathon Man's Oscar nominations before this or. No. Why would I do that? Because I have you. Okay. How many do you think it was nominated for? Let's start there and slow start. How many do you think? I bet you 1976. So what we have. This is the year that Rocky wins. We also have all the President's Men. We got network. We got Taxi Driver. We got some heavy fucking hitters this year. But how many do you think you got? Three. If you had to guess three. It got a brand spanking one. You know, best supporting actor Laurence Olivier. And the thing is really the thing is this movie was well, well received by critics. They loved it. It made money. It's just such is this is an example kind of our first example of the 70s were so good for movies that they there was an embarrassment of riches because like never like I've never been the biggest fan on Rocky. I get it's cultural placement. I understand, I absolutely and on a equivocal do not think that needed to win Best picture in director. Oh well. But yeah, it's just it's a great time for movies. 1976 is one of the all time great years. So the fact that it really only snuck in there for that one, it's still kind of surprising. And here's who we have. We have Ned Beatty for network. He's barely in it. Burgess Meredith for Rocky, Olivia for marathon yet for marathon man, Burt Young for Rocky. Jason Robards wins for All the President's Men is Ben Bradlee. It's tough because I obviously want Olivia to win so much, but I still think they should have nominated Robert Duvall for network than we would have had for the only time ever, possibly for actors from the same movie winning all the acting. That would have been cool. The one that I'm really mad at didn't get nominated for win is Best Screenplay Adapted because I mean, you know, that's what I thought would have been number. Yeah. You really think he would have been nominated and won this year? Bound for glory was nominated. Fellini's Casanova was nominated. The 7% solution was nominated. Voyage of the damn was nominated in this fucking slouch name. What's the name? William Goldman for all the President's men wins. So joke. Oh, he won in his own fucking category. So I mean, I get it. I, I think writers can be nominated like actors can't be can't be nominated for best actor twice. But he probably could have been nominated for both. That would have been cool. His own competition. But hey, I can't argue against the screenplay for All The President's Men. It's like one of the best scripts ever. Wasn't Leo nominated for something twice? It was nominated for Blood Diamond and departed. No. You can be nominated. No. He wasn't. He just got nominated for Blood Time in that year. But like, Pacino can get nominated for Scent of Woman and Glengarry Glen Ross. I mean, someone just did it. Scarlett Johansson that it recently for like, Fucking Marriage Story and Jojo Rabbit. But you cannot be nominated in Best actor twice, best actors twice. I can't do that. Ken for director doesn't happen a lot, but Soderbergh did it. Traffic and Erin Brockovich. She was nominated twice, so I think, I don't know if Sorkin know. I guess Sorkin didn't do it. I remember wondering if he could because he wrote something the same year. Social network, I believe, or, you know, he had had scripts around, but no, because you can for cinematography. Deakins did for in 2007, Jesse James and yeah, yeah, yeah. So you can Jesse James and No Country. I had to get it. Yeah. So that was it. One Oscar noms. But it's a great year. I would have given it nominations for picture I, you know, over bound for Glory or Rocky. Sorry director. I would have given it the nomination. I mean Birdman, it was nominated for Face to face. That's great actor absolutely would have given it to. I mean, whatever you don't you do this back and forth thing, but I loved it. Olivia was nominated. He could have fit. And William Devane there. Yeah. Yeah. Good stuff, great stuff. Love. Marathon man. Had a lot of fun reading the stamp book. I bought it. People don't think. Look, I'm going to show it here. I know people don't see, but I'm. Hold it. It's the pages of the book. Flip the pages, flip the pages, let them know. Read it in three sittings. And in my research, I found out that William Goldman himself. I'm holding it up, wrote sequel to Marathon Man Called Brothers. So I'm going to read it. Yeah, I haven't started yet. It's think only shorter than marathon Man. And he wrote it came out about in the in the 80s, I think 83 or 87 or something. So I to buy the, the hardcover was the only thing that was available on Amazon. So I just bought the fresh hardcover and that's I'm going to read it. I'm yeah. Getting more getting back into the actual written word because it's good for my, you know, just I mean, it is such good word. He, he used the word venerated. And I was like, oh, venerated. What a great fucking word that I've never, don't think to use. Like. And now I remember William Goldman using what's generated. What's it mean? Holding the high, high esteem. Oh. Like Dustin Hoffman would have venerated Laurence Olivier in real life, you know? So it's it's just a good. It's like a fucking good word, man. You know? Like, you like how you treat me. I think it's probably the opposite. I was going to put it the other way. It doesn't sound like it would be. It's. It's the same thing. Like that sounds kind of like a bad word. Like it means something bad to. Same with, like, benevolent. Sounds mean to me. Yeah. Benevolent. It's like a good god. Or is malevolent. Is the bad malevolent god you like? You gotta love words. What are you watching? Let's go. Let's do it. When do you got for me? I can go first because I kind of have a few, but it's up to you. Well, I'm just going to get mine out of the way because mine's. Mine's. Mine's a weak choice because it's just what I wanted. I switched it up. I, I want to watch Midnight Cowboy really, really bad right now. Cool. I yeah, I think you should. And we. So that's going to be my. What are you watching wreck. Yeah. Like the focus of the. What are you watching new Hollywood project is 70s films. But we are allowed to trickle back a few years because Midnight Cowboys, right on the table. Bonnie and Clyde, any time. Fucking faces by Cassavetes. I know we did a cast spot, but this is what makes movies like cast. Like when I know I did this in the what Do We just do five Easy Pieces part? So forgive me, but this explanation of like the when the Hays Code was in effect and you couldn't get away with a lot. This is that's what made movies like shadows so like controversial like, oh my god. Yeah, I just made this. And they're talking about having sex and abortion and interracial relationships. You would have never seen that in a studio film in 1958. So yeah, like all that stuff is on the table. But yeah, I watched Midnight Cowboy to prepare for this. It was a fun double feature. It's the Hoffman Schlesinger double feature, Midnight Cowboy marathon man. It is intense. Midnight cowboy does not fuck around it. It's not fuck around at all. That's what I remember. That was my impression of the movie when I first saw. I was like, Holy shit, this thing is, this is a whole thing. Yeah, it's a whole thing. My, that was actually what I had to for a recommendation. I had. And then a second recommendation I have, I need to finish it. I've already seen it once. I got like 45 minutes left. The boys from Brazil, released two years later, 1978. Directed by Franklin J. Schaffner. The guy who did Patton, which we talked about in the last episode. This is kind of, interesting because in this movie it's Laurence Olivier. Remember, he thought he's going to die making Marathon Man, but he's he's lost some weight. But now he is playing in The Boys from Brazil, a Nazi hunter going to Holland. The last remaining big Nazi. This was Josef Mengele or something. Crazy lunatic, asshole. Experimental doctor in Auschwitz. He was, Nell's kind of partner in the Marathon Man book. These guys in Auschwitz, like, did all this crazy shit. But now he's chasing this guy, you know, and he knows he's living in Argentina. And that evil shitbag Nazi doctors, played by none other than Gregory Peck. And you're like, oh, my Gregory Peck playing the evil German. I love 70s movies, but Olivier did that as a response to playing like, honestly, one of the best portrayals of a Nazi ever on film. Like one of the most convincing ones. He kind of, I think so bad for it, too. Then he went and played a Nazi hunter and got nominated for Best Actor for boys from Brazil. So it's cool. That movie gets a little weird. Like it definitely gets weird. There's some they're trying to clone. Hitler because they have some of his DNA, so it gets a little weird, but it's, you know, it's still it's a good movie. It's out there to him. It's a it's a crazy thought. Yeah. And then, some contemporary ones for me real quick. These don't have anything. I'm just moving away and talking about contemporary movies similar to how I talked about jaws. I haven't been able to tell this story yet. It was after the Oscars. I get back from LA and Ali goes, okay, I'm ready, ready to watch Andorra. And I said, okay, oh, all right, we'll watch it. We'll watch another, we'll do it. I don't want any phones around. She's like, all right. So we put it on. And I knew the first 45 minutes we're not really going to be for her. But I've since come to realize there are 60 seconds exactly of sexual content in the Nora 60s, and it is all spaced out over the first 45 minutes. And all those scenes are very, very quick. So it's not like some fucking porno, you know? But we're watching it when a Nora goes back to the house to now do her striptease, and she plays the music and it's, you know, the music going, and van is sitting there. And that was the scene when Ali like, pause. And she looked at me and she went, all right, she did her work. The girl can dance like, all right, all right. So we're going, movie goes, the movie ends, and she looks at me and she says, that was one of the best movies I have ever seen. I, I had no idea I was going to like it that much. I did not think the movie about the stripper with a heart of gold was going to be for me, and she fucking loved most. It's exactly. I mean, Marathon Man does this where the first half I talked about this in the Five Easy Pieces part. First half is like weeks or passing or something. And then the last half is one night marathon man does that. That's why we I kept saying a Nora is cut and paste like a 70s movie. She loved it. This woman, my wife, my darling wife, loved it so much she did something that she's never done in the history of our relationship going out. It's nine years coming up on nine years. Wow. When I when I left for work trip, about a week later, this woman got on Hulu and watched a Nora on her own for the second time because she fucking wanted to. That's how she has never rewatched a movie. I have shown her again without me. Never happened. We watched Triangle of Sadness a bunch, Game Night, Uncut Gems a bunch, but never without me. And she loves it. And now it's like we're. We closed it all the time. I I'm like, eager all around the house. Like maybe he's on a high. You say, Bender, I'm dead. We just were quoting it all the time. She loves Toriel. She loves those guys like, oh, my God, so she loved it. They in there. And then her and I were. We just went on a little trip together. And on the way back on the flight, she picked out on the plane for us to watch Oppenheimer, which I thought was very big of her, but we didn't have three hours. We had about 2.5 hours. So I made the very intentional decision to pick out a movie her and I could watch together that neither of us had seen. And what did I pick? It ends with us starring Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni. Oh, and I can tell you, oh, that thing without question or reservation. This is one of the worst movies I have ever seen, she said. It probably is the worst movie she's ever seen. I've been likening this absurd, fucking ridiculous controversy that is lasted a year. At this point, I've been likening it to don't worry, darling, that's not fair because Don't Worry darling, while being a very bad movie, I even showed you some of it is so bad sometimes that it's funny, like it's so bad and you just laugh and you're like, you're like, these cuts are fucking outrageous. But it ends with us is there's nothing humorous about it. It is fucking terrible. She is so bad in it. She is so bad. It is horribly written. And I resent having to hear about this movie for a year and a half because of all these lawsuits that are going on. Of course, these lawsuits never happening for a good movie. It won't happen for like, fucking Citizen Kane or Nora or something. It doesn't. It always happens with these shitty ass movies and they're trying to save face. And if this is purportedly Blake Lively's cut, this thing is like it's PG 13 and it it handles domestic violence assault with G-rated kid gloves. I resent it for that. I hate this type of shit. It is the worst of the worst and I. But believe me, I would tell everyone if it was fun to watch. If it was, if there was something enjoyable out of it. Nothing. The passage of time we were talking about whole fucking months passing this and they're like, oh, hi. They see people on the street and I go, what? You ain't seen them for months? I thought you saw them like every day. Like, well, what? The dinner. What the title comes to mean and how it is spoken is so fucking absurd. It actually it was offensive. I'm like, this is how you think domestic violence is solved. This is not the Jesus Christ like, it's really, really bad, right? He's he's like bragging about Ryan Reynolds. But I wrote the meet cute scene of them on the when they meet. It's like the worst written scene in the movie. It's so bad and unbelievable. Like, so I'm telling you people, there's no real redeemable reason to watch it unless I just wanted to know what all the fuss was about and I their no fuss deserves for it. It made a shitload of money and helped me, in part because the controversy. I know it's based on this. Like, you know, Gen Z book, but I mean, the book was I didn't read the book. I'm never going to. But Jesus Christ that the book is, is poorly written. Like, it's just a shockingly bad movie. You're you're surprised they still make movies this bad that are this popular. I mean, it's not like, you know, I have certain hatred towards certain movies because those went on to win Oscars and I resent them for that reason. This is just like there's nothing worthwhile about this. Like it's so fucking bad, so don't watch it. This might be your most unsafe, your most scathing on air. That's because you never listen to the coolest podcasts. And I fucking went all in on that. I went all in and never regretted a thing and was actually very kindly, graciously thanked by several listeners because they told me I feel the same way about that horrific piece of shit. The brutalist fucking hogwash, pretentious nonsense that you do. And I haven't heard anyone else say this. I've just been hearing people go, oh, it's actually a good movie, No, it's not. No, no, it's not fucking terrible. But at least it kind of I mean, like, there are like 1 or 2 shots that are good in it. In the brutalist thriller, the score is like kind of catchy. Like, I get it, it ends with it. There's no there's no redeemable quality. It's so bad. I just felt like talking about it because everyone's been asking me about it. What's all this controversy? So it was it didn't need to be made and doesn't need to be made. If it wasn't, there would be a lot more happier people out there. It's so bad. Yeah, she is the asshole. Her and her husband are the asshole. You're the famous ones. You're the asshole. I didn't know who this Justin Baldoni guy was. And now he's like, his career's done because you guys ruined it and you made a shitty movie. You're the assholes. That's my opinion. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. A-list stars with D-list talent. That's what I. That's what she is to me. Oh, marathon man is a great film. Okay, Laurence Olivier, talent, mortality and his fingernail that you got in your entire aura. Blake Lively, Dustin Hoffman. Man. Yeah. You know, he had, well, whatever. Dustin, Dustin did. Well, John Schlesinger, we love you. I if you watch Midnight Cowboy, you got to report back. I want you to go watch. Oh, yeah. Everybody's talking. Everyone wants to let us know what you're thinking about marathon man, Nora, the boys from Brazil and ends with us at AIW underscore podcast. But as always, thank you so much for listening and happy watching. TV. Keep. Hey everyone, thanks again for listening. Send us mailbag questions at What Are You Watching podcast at gmail.com or find us on Twitter, Instagram and Letterboxd at W underscore podcast. Next time. It's showtime, folks. It's Vivaldi and Visine, Alka-Seltzer and Dexedrine. It's the Angel of death. It's Roy Scheider, it's Bob Fosse, it's Roy Scheider as Bob Fossey. Ladies and gents, next time is all that jazz. He came. Blow that your ass, motherfucker!