144: Twin Peaks

Alex and friend-of-the-pod Dan enter the Black Lodge to discuss David Lynch's “Twin Peaks.” In this loose episode, the guys break down the show’s original two seasons, the prequel film “Fire Walk with Me,” and the 25-years-later follow-up season, “Twin Peaks: The Return.” Stray topics include Kyle MacLachlan, Mark Frost’s dossiers, BOB, “Part 8: Gotta Light?,” emphysema, Frances Bay, and who killed Laura Palmer.
Later in the episode, Nick and Alex invite a new guest on the pod to discuss his personal experiences with David Lynch.
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Transcript

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Hey, everyone. Little episode outline before we get going here. First up, you're going to hear myself and friend of the pod Dan, talking about all things Twin Peaks for about 80 minutes. Then I'm going to play some music, and Nick and I are going to bring on a very special brand new guest to the podcast. I cannot say anything more by way of introduction, because it would take some of the wind out of Nick's sails. You will see what I mean when you get there, but that's today 80 minutes of Twin Peaks, 20 minutes with a brand new guest who has a lot to say about David Lynch in Twin Peaks. I promise it is a very relevant guest. And that's it. So let's get going with Twin Peaks. Okay. Hey, everyone. Welcome to. What are you watching? I'm Alex Withrow, and I'm joined by friend of the pod. Dan. How you doing there? Special agent Dale Cooper. Let's rock. Let's rock, Doug Jones. Oh, well. Hello, everyone. Today is the Twin Peaks episode and we're just going to go for it. Here we are. Friend of the pod. Dan has very graciously agreed to do this with me. I don't think either of us town ourselves is like we you know, we're not the people who make the four hour long YouTube explainer videos. That's not what we do. We have watched this, liked it. We've engaged with the law, will watch some of those videos. But we're not this pod today. I already tease this on the David Lynch episode This is not a day, Twin Peaks explainer pod. It's just Dan and I talking about why we like to show the movie The Return. I will say though, I am interested now to read to read the dossiers that Mark Frost has written. Yeah. How long are those the books? Yeah. That long. Oh that's cool. I think they're like, yeah, I'm interested though. Yeah. Twin Peaks, David Lynch, Dan, Nick and I did our David Lynch episode and I told him just to ignore Twin Peaks because he takes forever to watch TV, forever to watch everything. So I'm like, don't bog yourself down with this. I don't think you'll ever even be able to get through it. So you again very graciously agreed. And part of why I asked you to do this is because when Covid first hit, you and I kind of watched The Return together like we would do two episodes. I mean, you were in LA, I was in DC and we would do two episodes, send each other notes, and that was a lot of fun. I never really engaged with anyone about Twin Peaks content until then, and that was a lot of fun. And that's you still have those notes. We're doing this, dude, I don't I save everything and they are gone. I don't know what happened to them. I don't I didn't save like our text threads so I can't go scroll back time. They were in my notes app and they were I mean, you know, it wasn't. We sent each other. It was like 10 to 15 bullets. Sure. About what we liked about each episode. And it was fun because it was fun to reengage with this after so many years. But how do you feel about this show? What first brought you to tread? Because how do you feel about it now? How many times have you seen it? That's our intro. You know, I will say first I was thinking about doing a bit and talking like Gordon Cole, the whole pod. Oh my god. But then I realized I like to take my head way too loud and I don't have to yell every time I would say something. But I yes, I actually took notes for this. I love it, I love it. I answer your first question, I don't remember. Okay. That's shocker. Me and my memory, I honestly, I can't remember if, like, an ax told me because I remember like an ex partner, like her brother in law. Love that shit. And I. Okay, but I don't remember it. But I'm like, the return came out in what, 20 1817? Yeah I then I then it was before that I had watched it once maybe like 13 or 14 like your age. No no no no. Like the year 20,000 maybe earlier. Because I also then remember watching seasons one and two a second time. Yeah. Before I watched season three. Okay. Yeah that's what I do. So I so that was like cool. Yeah. And then that was the last time I saw seasons one and two. You have watched them more recently. I watched them three times now. Yeah. Yeah. You've like just finished your Twin Peaks binge. I've seen season one and two twice like well I my dad like this. So he watched this live and he was telling me he was a big Lynch fan who was telling me, this is crazy. Nothing like this has existed on TV before, and it was a real thing. I was young when it first aired in 1990, but it was a sensation that took over America, and everyone was on board with this question of who killed Laura Palmer. And it was just everywhere, totally dominated the culture. And then the Twin Peaks law. Not even like in, I mean, just how it was made and what happened to it. It's kind of fascinating because season one is eight episodes, very highly regarded. Yeah. And then season two, they pick it up for a full 22 episodes. I think the pilot is one of the best pilots ever. Yeah, that's like a 90 minute pilot. Like it's almost like a movie. It's the same thing he tried to do with Mulholland Drive. So like the pilot you watch, I did. I did watch that. Yeah, I talked about that on the Lynch pod. Not good, not good because of editing, because of sound choices. I mean, you can see how he took how he added to the material and then spent two years with that to make it something, to make it a masterpiece. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. But this. Yeah. Because there's like the 90 minute pilot that's over here and then their season one because the pilot was like a they didn't know if they were, if it was gonna get the pilot. Kind of like the first half. It is the first episode. Yeah. Yeah. But they didn't know it was gonna get picked up. Yeah. And they shot it in like 80. And it is very you can tell it's very it's not I think it's like a more esthetically different than the show. You can tell. It's like, oh this was a little cheaper. Yeah. It. Yeah. But once like obviously the first episode. After the pilot like oh here's the Twin Peaks that I remember because I'm watching this first episode, I'm like is this what I saw. What I've seen right. I forgot yeah that it would change. They tweak the two things before they like pick the show up. Yeah. And so I remember hearing my dad talking about it when the DVDs were first released, maybe like 2000, 2001, he bought them and that was that was the first time I watched everything, and I was confused a lot at the time. I'm still confused a lot at the time. I think that's some of the enjoyment. I think that some of the fun and then fire walk with me, which again I teased on our previous episode, is a movie I have fallen in love with. But that happened because of the return, like I had only seen it once and kind of not written it off. Been like, wow, that was intense. But because I wasn't so familiar with the Twin Peaks ness of it all, I just wasn't reaching me. And then when the return came out, that's when I went back. Season one, season two Fire walk with me. And I was like, oh, this movie's actually, I think there's there's like no reason to rewatch Fire Walk Me. I feel like until the Return was announced. Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's a good movie, but I don't really. It's like, why would I want to watch Far Walk With Me if I'm also going to be unfulfilled by an ending of a show I'm never going to see the end to? Yeah, yeah. But then obviously he did finish it. He finished it. Yeah. 25 years later, I'll see you in 25 years. So yeah, the movie kind of brought new like purpose to the movie. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I think people definitely reinvestigated the movie because of the return. And I mean, I think the show in general. But what's fascinating about the show is that season one is a huge hit. It's one of the biggest TV hits, and in season two just doesn't go well like they kind of solve the Laura who Killed Laura Palmer thing, like by episode nine, I believe, and then the June 2nd. Yeah, yeah. Then they like go off and that's when I think it lost a lot of people and it's reputation is it kind of shit the bed in season two David Lynch left and he came back at the end. And it just didn't kind of go that way. I like season two. I like I like it all. I like it all like it's so zany and crazy, I like it. Yeah, I like everything about Twin Peaks, even though I don't understand all of it. But yes, I like it. And then fuck yeah, fire walk with me. I'm definitely going to talk about because I love that we could see Sheryl Lee, like actually play Laura Palmer. You know, she's been talked about it's a really good sequel or a really good prequel movie before that was, you know, a thing. Yeah. And something that was based on a TV show, like movies based on TV shows. It just it shouldn't have gone right. And it didn't at the time. People hated it. Yeah. It didn't. Why? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it gets that's why I didn't make two more. Yeah. It was supposed to make three things. Supposed to be trilogy. Holy shit. It was supposed to end it. I think that's what I. That's. I read that somewhere. Okay, okay. I would've liked that. I would have seen it, but obviously didn't do well. Right, right. And I mean, I think part of that and I talked about this on the last episode is, you know, Twin Peaks is a sick. And that sitcom, Twin Peaks is a network show. So no cursing drug use, no hard section. It was cocaine. They mentioned that they show cocaine in the series like seasons one and two. Oh my God, they show like the diet. Cocaine residue. Okay, okay. Yeah, but not like snorting. Not. No. Oh, no. Maybe not. No. I'm thinking of the movie. The movie? What? I mean, and then you people, if you're a fan of these of the show, seasons one and two, and you hope to get answers from fire walk with me. You like to go in there, do it. She's, like, addicted to cocaine. Yeah. There's no question that, Yeah, yeah. I just remember rewatching the season two finale and I was like, how the hell did this air on TV? It's not. Yeah, yeah, it was. It was. So yeah, they're in fire walks me. They're cursing, they're doing drugs, they're sexual assault. There's, Oh, okay, we're almost at ten minutes, but I am going to say that we're soon enough. You're going to have kind of free reign. And wherever we go, we're going to talk about stuff. And if we, you know, inadvertently just spoil something. Sorry. That's kind of the way it is. Should have watched it by now. Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, if you're listening to this, I would hope you have at least some sort of relationship with it. Also kind of a hard show to spoil because I mean, well, not really, but what I was going to say or I tiptoed around it in our David Lynch episode Fire Walk with me, actually is remember now as this is a really difficult subject to talk about, but it's remembered as one of the most genuine and honest films made about incest. And it really has like a life. And that is how a lot of it is remembered. Even though when you're in the lore of the show, it's like her dad was possessed by this guy. But when that's all put together and we see her figure that out in fire, walk with me. It's really intense. And I didn't remember any of that when I rewatched it a few years ago. And and now I've seen it a few more times. It's like, it's not a happy family. It's not a happy family. It's not a happy movie. The last 30 minutes of Fire Walk With Me, the Pink Room basically wants to be in of that pink room to the end is like tough. It's really, really tough. I don't think there's anything even that tough in the return in return. But it's also like you also know where the movie's going. Yes, if you like this. Yes. If you've seen the show, you're like, oh, this is leading up to, like, being killed here. Yeah, yeah. It's not going to be a good you know, you're not gonna have a good time. Yeah. It's not going to be a happy ending like it's David Lynch. Also not necessarily known for happy endings, but yeah, I Cheryle is talked about how like she a lot of incest survivors will come up to her and be like, this isn't you have no idea. Oh wow. I'm into me. And when she was playing it, she didn't know it would have that significance because she's, you know, you're young, so I, I don't know, I respect that about it, but okay. Twin peaks season one. Here we go. Episode one. That's a joke. Hahaha. Who killed Laura Palmer? And, you know, quaint old Twin Peaks? The local people can't really figure it out. So they call in the FBI. That's when Kyle MacLachlan, Special agent Dale Cooper comes in a peculiar man, and he's, you know, linking up with Sheriff Harry Truman. It's a local sheriff. And yeah, we just meet. I can't sit here and talk about every character we meet, these huge cast of characters who are just in this town too many years, a lot. Yeah, a lot. And I think now again, you have seen these. I'm not trying to put too much pressure on you. You've seen these episodes more recently than I have. The jet it definitely starts is like this show is about who killed Laura Palmer, and then it just opens its web up to a point, which I think frustrated a lot of people. Well, especially after, I guess, when they reveal a killer, it kind of just yes, they start exploring other people's lives. Yeah. And like the granted the they plant seeds of the new a plot in season one. Like at the end of season one. They mentioned Windom Earle briefly. Yeah, yeah. And then obviously, you know, that has to eventually become the main plot. But it takes like almost all of season two to get there. Right? Right. There it is. So many. The fact that when I was, I was rewatching it with my partner and then it just if she said if I wasn't there, it would have been. She would have. She could not keep track with how you were like in this show. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just like it gets even worse in season three. There's just so many characters who don't matter. Yeah, but yeah, it's just but it's like. But it's just I mean, they matter in their moments because they're great. Yeah. Yeah. But like but they're just so many people that like she would confuse names because there's is there again there's so many, there's so many that don't matter. But they're just so good. You just want to like you want to live in the world. Yes. Yeah I mean that's what, that's what I get a lot a lot out of the return. And the first time you're watching that you're like why are Tim Roth and Jennifer Jason Leigh here all like addicted fast food killer people. And they're great. You're like, what's going on? Why are we spending so much time with, like, this woman trying to slaughter fly? Why? Like why, why, why all this? And yeah, when you just, like, rein it in and focus on the Laura Palmer stuff. Not so much in the return, but in seasons one and two, you can find like a somewhat cohesive story. But that's he was much more interested in world. But I usually tell people if they ever are just in Twin Peaks, I say watch the first episode, which I guess is the pilot hour and a half, and that I think the next two episodes, because the end of the, I would say third episode, even though it's the second 45 minute one, I think, I think that's the one where Cooper has this dream. Oh, you have the Red room, and that's when you're kind of like, what the fuck is this? Yeah, what is this? And then that's what they're like. If you like that, then you're fine. Yeah. That kind of cruise. Yeah. They're just like, you know, they introduce Jack Nance's Pete Martel, like he's he's fine. Like he's a goofy guy. Right? You don't really. I think his most significant part. Yes, he finds the body, but too, it's like if he wasn't good at playing chess. Like what? Why else would you like? He has a bigger purpose in season two. Yeah, yeah. So what are you going to get, like like characters like Dick Tremaine, right. Oh like, why are you in this I love you, I love what it's like to be. It's like the b-plot of Lucy with her baby. Yeah, sure. So, like, that plot is insignificant to the whole show, but it's just cute. Yeah. It's cute, it's quirky. There's a lot of quirky stuff in the return there. Yeah, he. That's a lynch thing. Two whole put a lot of stuff, you know, put weird, physically interesting looking people in his show. Yeah he likes that I like that too. I like that not everyone is like this perfection of beauty, which is, you know, they have their own sort of, I don't know, like I think The Return also has characters who amount to nothing there, like one scene in they're weird, like twin Peaks season one, and to have it as well. Yeah, but it's just he just likes that weird shit. But the one in seasons one and two, we're not jumping all over like geographically, you know, like in Twin Peaks The Return. We're all over the place like a very I and me like a quarter of it takes place in Twin Peaks for like Michael, Sarah. Amazing. We tweet each other that gif all the time. Like hysterical means nothing like it doesn't matter to Eddie. No, it just love. It's just. Yeah, it's like, why? Who cares? Like, why is he in this? I mean, he's really good. He's just like a one off. Yeah, his monologue is great. It's funny. It's a lovely turn of phrase. It's just so stupid. But it's exactly. It's so stupid. But then that's one of the things you like talk about themselves. So there's just. But it's like a sure it's fine. Yeah. Sure. It's it was fun. It was fun. But does it pertain to the plot at all? No, it's just and I think that's hard because that is not the TV you were used to. Now when a lot of TV is very like, let's move, plop, plop. Yeah, I obviously didn't mind it because I want to spend time in that world. And it's also quirky, like because season three is obviously not very quirky, but like it has moments of quirk. Yeah, this air is pretty quirky, right? I can I just can personally consider the town has been poisoned over 25 years with oh, Black Lodge shit. Oh that's my okay on it. No, I mean I agree, there's so much bad shit happens. I mean, that movie or that show gets real to like, the look the kid getting hit. Yeah. Like there's some. Yeah, there's some real stuff, but there's always these actors showing up and you're like, okay, man, to see Freed's going to be in style. And she's really good. And you're like, oh, okay, Ashley Judd doing this. Ashley Judd's good. Yeah, yeah, they're all good. Oh my God. They were jumping around. Yeah. That's that's the way this whole episode is going to go. That's the way it's it's going to kind of run back around. What is it been like watching this with your lady at home? Because that's really cool that you guys started it, but I've never had the chance to show this to someone new, and you already kind of teased it. But so after every episode, are you, like, sitting there attempting to answer all your questions? Okay, no, she pretty much didn't ask. Seasons. I think. I don't want to say seasons one and two were easier to get. I think they're it's much more. I think the plot is much more easy to understand. And I wanted to I agree. And then obviously Fire Walk with me is a trip, but it's but, the return is much more when we finished it the last episode Thursday night. It's Saturday today. So two days ago. Yeah, it's just. And she's just like, what the fuck? Like, because I was, I was reminding her that because it's my third time seeing The Return and obviously it's not obviously, but it is my funniest rewatch. Yeah, I really appreciate the humor more this time. Yeah, but yeah, I was telling her there was stuff happening in like the, the finale of The Return that they mentioned once in the first episode. So. Yeah. So you told me that yesterday and I don't even know, I so it's just in the first scene. So it's like, like with the kids that were like, no, the oh, of the black and white scene with the firemen in the first episode, which was, Fireman Cooper in like the, the black and white things. Okay. You saw this crap in that, that there's a payoff to the finale. All right. So it's just like. And I only know this cause I've seen it three times since you've watched it. Yeah. And I was telling her she's like, how the fuck am I supposed to remember that? Like, you're not, you're not, you're not. No way, no way. Yeah. Especially. Yeah, yeah. You're just not. You're not Hellboy. We could talk about some of our characters. I mean, Kyle McLaughlin coming in, I love it's such a David Lynch character. I use the term the all shucks ness so many times in a Lynch episode, and he just embodies that so well. The coffee, the pie, all this stuff. But then you can also get real when he's like in these other rooms, you're like, you know, he's so positive you just can't hate him. Exactly. Such a love about him. Great. Yes. That's what I was looking for. He is. He's like this beacon of positivity and very charismatic. You just. He, like I still say, like the. I still say usually every day for yourself a present, which I was just going to say that and then I also I also regular semi-regularly quote like, I don't know where this will lead us, but it will be a place both wonderful and strange because this is like a happy, like it's a happy. I like the way he says it. Yeah. Like I would say that Twin Peaks and Back to the future are probably my most quoted, oh, really? Forms of oh, I love content. I love that. But yeah, he just he has great one liners. McLaughlin he just you just can't like when he's thrown the rocks of bottles. Yeah. It's so quirky. But yeah. And he also, you know, he also fits in so well, but he also brings like a sense of, like, wonderment to the town, like he's already happy people. Right. But it's just. But obviously there's a dark, sinister part of the town that he eventually discovers and like, brings out. And it's. But it's always been there. It's very true. He says. It's been in these woods River as long as I can remember. And like the book house boys have been there, you know. Right. He's. Yeah. So but but yeah, it just he he just brings a sense of charm to it. Yeah. Like, I mean I mean in the return I think episode 17 when we're jumping around again, that's like when, like Mr. See shows up in Twin Peaks. Yeah. And he, he reunites with Andy and he thinks he's Dale Cooper and Randy so excited to see him. Right. And he's like running mister sees the evil one right. Yeah. Yeah. He's like he's he's run around. He's so excited. So I was like that's like oh that's like quirky right. Like right. But yeah, it's just, you know, like the log lady's weird. Of course, everyone's like, what is this? But everyone is David a company didn't have to be Denise. Yeah. And he shows like the season two right at the end. You know, it's it's like it's in the early. Yeah. I love that he came back for the return. Yeah, that was great. But. But you're like why is it here. Yeah. And then like you know Albert is a dick and he does a 180. Yeah. Like yeah. Yes he does. It's just but then he fits in so well. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. Sometimes the acting is kind of flat. I think that's the David Lynch. Oh, but I do, I don't mind. Yeah I don't mind it. Yeah. Because you know, like Harry Truman's giving a very flat performance most of the time. Well then you got, Andy is doing his thing. His lady is doing Lucy's, whatever that is. Yeah, yeah, all of her scenes are typically. Don't. At least in the return, they're not like, that's significant. But you're just with her for so long and it's like painstaking stuff of how does this work? But you have like James who's. Yeah, very also very flat. Very flat. Yeah. Yeah. That's I do think David Lynch, just by virtue of who he is and the material that kind of comes out, that flatness. Well, they mentioned, I think in one of the first episode of the Return, they mentioned that James got into a bike accident. And so, yeah, they, they, they explain why he's so slow. It's just like, oh my God, that's hilarious. It's got to be fun. I love that I love him in return. I love he's good. Yes. The part I yeah it's good. Yeah yeah yeah. The guy with the green. Ready? Ready. It was supposed to be Jack dance. Jack, man. I think it was. He wrote. I don't know where I heard this. I could be wrong. What an age difference. Oh, no. But I think he I don't know, because obviously I, I assume he had ideas for another C.K.. Oh, I think I think Freddy was like, based okay. Supposed to be a Pete Martel. Like, if they shot it way back then. Okay, I'm I whatever. But yeah, who cares what it was? I could see Jack. Yeah. We're in love. I love that this is my destiny. I love that guy so much. And just that whole story, you're like, what is? Yeah. Guy told him to get this glove. It's got to be this glove I love. And also like, you know. And I love how characters are disposed of by such insignificant. Yes. Yes. Like, you know like Tim Roth and Jennifer Jason Lee are killed by that random neighbor. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. To some dude who pulls up who's in one scene. Yeah. That's it, that's it. And it just he just totally like sucks theme sucks the payoff out. Yeah. Like you're like, oh, let's have these people have these comeuppance by, you know, by people we know. And it's just, it's not random dude who doesn't have a name. Right? It's much more just kind of basic than that. He doesn't want to give us those big emotional payoffs. That's that's also Lynchian as well, people, the way the fates of certain characters can happen, it necessarily isn't this big grand like it's a. Yeah, it's like it's like season three. Don't wait for Cooper. Yes. I think a lot of people had trouble with that when they were watching it in real time, as did I, because you never really see the real Cooper until the very end. Like when he comes back and it's such it's so warm and just great. But yeah, most of the time with Laughlin playing this Dougie Jones. Yeah. Doug Jones, who I love of course the good fortune of Dougie Jones. Mr. C who is just a complete sociopath and wants all I believe the intention is he wants all the negative like energy for himself. He's trying to harness the I think, Bob I think he's yeah I think he's also yeah I don't I still don't know it. It's like I you know the third time watch it. He ends up at the ends up at twin in the Twin Peaks Sheriff's station. Right. And I don't know if he's like seeking out the woman who. Yeah. Who can't see who is right. That's it. We're allowed to. Yes, yes, yes. Spoilers could have been Diane. Right. Like I don't know. That's what he's like I forget I know that that's what he's seeking out for this. He's like he was some attention to that. But it's just. Or he's there to kill Cooper. I don't I don't know because the, the overarching kind of vibe is that there's this help me out here. There's this dangerous, evil entity, Judy, who's kind of like running the show with all this bad shit she creates. Bob, who does a lot of bad shit, and Twin Peaks eventually will, not go into but possess, the dad. Laura's dad. Yeah. And he, you know, which causes a bunch of bad stuff that does lead to the death. But it's also imply that, like, Judy is also inside. Sarah. Sarah the mom. Yes, yes. The whole family's fucked in in the return. That's very implied. Is that implied in one and two? I don't seasons one. No, but in The return, it's like she's just sitting there watching, like, animals being kill each other and stuff. Not the thing in the bar. I didn't it took an explainer video to literally spell that out. Like when she's in the bar and removes her face. That's Judy. And how it works. Yeah, okay, that is Judy. That's right. Yeah, the whole family is just totally fucked. Like they're just this cursed family. Ray Wise and Sara. Yeah. Rosea. Oh, they're. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love Ray wise. Leland. It's great. I use I. Yeah, I think the first time I saw Ray wise was I saw him as the devil and Reaper. Oh, first time I saw Ray was. It definitely would have been in some, like, what was it, robot movie? Something like that. It would have been in some real Sci-Fi horror thing. Yeah. I've always loved him. He's good. Yeah. He's good. Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's that's great. And then I'm like, oh, he's fucking insane. Yeah I love where he goes. The bleach blood hair. It's easy to. And then he gets he then shock has killed his beloved Laura. So then he takes revenge on her. What the hell ends up happening to him? To Liam. Yeah. Oh. He dies. Yeah. He dies. He's he's in the jail cell. And like, in pretty much Bob Leland slams his head to the right because he realizes what he's done. Yes. Bob's like what? Before I leave, I'm going to tell. I'm going to show him what he's done. And then Bob's leave his body. And then Leland realizes what he does, and he Cooper says, go to Laura all the like. And he does. Do you know the story of Bob? Like how that thing. That guy became very Frank Silva? Yeah, but like how he was, like, cast. I think he just. I'm like, but this. But Lynch said he died. I think he, I think I watched the interview with Frank Silva. He just talks about I think he said he was on was I saw that said he was a guy on set. He was like he was like crouching behind. He was like a prop guy that or something. Literally crouching behind the bed during a scene. And then Lynch just saw him and he went, oh my God, like, this is I don't even know if he had thought about, but he's like, that's the evil entity. And then in another scene, they're like, saw him in a mirror by accident, by accident, like it was. And Lynch kept it. Yeah, but I did hear the interview they gave years ago. He said something like, they're like, all right, Frank, you're going to be in the show today. And they're like, what? What is they want me to do? And like, we don't know. You'll find out when you get there because I yeah, I love that that like, dude wasn't even an actor. Like he was like oh yeah, I was on a couch crawl. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. That's Lynch is you can have everything kind of spelled out and very precise, but he's on the day if he sees something. Yeah, let's do that. Dana Ashbrook Bobby Briggs I love this guy. I like his a lot of it for me is seeing where they end up like in The Return, how they've gone and like, how their life is gone because he's, you know, he's in bad shape and fire walk to me and then he's just a completely different person. I was I, I was I still yeah, I remember I was so happy when I saw him when he shows up in The Return. Oh yeah. With the hair and, you know, cast in. Yeah. Exactly. It's great. It's just. Yeah, it's it's a turnaround and you can and also it's like he has he's one of the favorite characters in The Return. Oh yeah. Me too. Me and mean and me knowing where I, where he ends up makes me appreciate him in the original season so much more. Yeah. Like I just I just like how goofy, how weird he is in the first. He is annoying at all. No, not first to because but I like I know where he's going to go. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just yeah he's just. And also Dane is great in it. Yeah. Like so yeah Bobby just is turn around and you can tell he's. No he's nowhere near the guy. He was in the first two. Right. He has such utmost respect for his father. Right. Which is so crazy. Yeah. And like you can tell, like when Bobby gets brought in to, like, when they, when they're given the little, like, metal silk cylindrical item by from his mother. Yes. And the return, you can tell when you find out like it's like a local coordinates for a certain place. You go with his dad. With his dad, they're going to very happy it works. Yeah. So just you tell Bobby he's just no longer try to be a good father. Yeah. Good. You still love showing his best? Yes. Yes. And he. It's unfortunate that he had split. But, you know, time happens. Time happens 25 years. But also in Shelley is also can't get out of the same pattern. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Neither can your daughter. Right. Exactly. Yeah. And I wanted to Imagine Amy is that I would say or Dave. Shelly's David. Real like how we say today. It's how we say today. We love her. We text about her a lot. When we were watching The Return. Like, yeah, I love catching up with her. And then the, you know, the owner of the place. Oh, yeah. Norma. And then her guy, Everett McGill. Peggy then. Yeah. Peggy Lipton. Yes. Yes. And how they never it's never a thing. They don't even kiss. And seasons one and two, right. Like it's never a consummated. It's a big head in Norma. Yeah. It's like always like they kind of do. I can't remember, but then that moment they get together in the return, it's like. So it's the it's the most happiest, the happiest moment of the entire season. Three. Yes, yes I agree. And it is such a love. Like I just love it. I, it's so good. Yeah. Because that guy's coming in like we're going to franchise Norma. Yeah, and all that. Well, big because it sits down and orders a coffee and closes his eyes. Yeah, he just doesn't move. Right. Norma comes up and they're like, together. Yeah. And it's like, it's because I think that's only in a few scenes. Well, he had retired from acting. That guy, he was like the straight story was what? Everett McGill. Yeah, he was in the straight story one scene, which is 99. I don't know if he did anything after that, but. And then, yeah, Lynch was like, come on. He came back. I'm like, yeah, Harry Truman. Yeah. Well he just I'm just gonna stay in Hawaii. Is that. He did. Oh, wow. I retired, he retired to Hawaii. Yeah, a plane Michael oh yeah. Yeah yeah. But no. Yeah there's the because there's like, that's why they brought in Robert Force there literally to do that. He said he wouldn't come back. So so he basically just writes his proxy. Don't they give the same name. He's like Frank Truman. Great. True. But yeah, he's like, Harry was my brother. Oh, he's so good. This is very good. Yeah. He's great, I love him. I think. Also, didn't Lynch always want to work with Forester? Well he has supposed to be in one. He has one scene in Mulholland Drive in the final cut and he had more in the pilot. There was another scene of them, like in the police station. And, you know, obviously when they shot that as a pilot, if that would have been picked up, everyone would have gotten. We sure do. But so when you watch it, like, especially for years after Jackie Brown, which gave Forester kind of a huge pop and like a career again, and he's just in one scene in Mulholland Drive, you're like, all right, there you go. That's David Lynch for you. Like, there it is. Yeah, yeah. So it was good they got to work together like in a big way for this. Yeah. And you know he died not too long after Benjamin Horne because he doesn't come up really. He's kind of in the return. He's actually I thought yeah more than I thought. He also but he's like huge two I mean one and two. Yeah. Yeah I mean him and he has like one scene with Jerry. And this Jerry is lost in the woods. Yeah. For the entire. Yeah. Which is wonderful right. But no, but it's like at the end of, there's some part, some, like, wait midpoint. So you through season two, I think after Ben Horne goes there is civil war phase, right? Yes. Paul Jacoby's like we have to see him through this, Jacoby. And and it's just he, he starts down the path in season two of, like, making things right and like he it eventually is revealed that Donna is his daughter. Yes. Yes. And which is kind of a crazy plot played by Laura Flynn Boyle in the show. Yeah, yeah. But then, you know, and it's like. And then I think season two ends with Ben Horne and like, okay, we're getting into a scuffle in the house. And then like he hits his head and like there's like, oh yeah, that makes sense. Yeah I don't know which one. I think it's that Doc Hayward. But but it is. But Horne's on this path of like, you can't tell what it is because he's on this path of like redemption in season two. And then and then it's like in season three. You can tell he's still following that path of redemption. And right, Ashley Judd does kind of make a pass at him. Yeah, yeah. Because you find out that Ashley Judd's home life is terrible. Yes, yes. And oh I right. And then but Ben's like, no, I'm not going to do it. And then there's and then there's a scene I think after like I think after Richard Horne, the grandson. Yes. Like, you know, like steals all the maps, your steals all Ben's. Well, that's his wife's in the show. Money. Yeah, yeah. And then I don't know, but then she said, I'll the money. Benjamin's wife says, I'm going to call my lawyer. So they must have been like, strained, like, oh, okay, I think, but he was, he had the ring and he was trying I think he was trying to make it work. Yeah. And then she's like, I'm calling my lawyer. I want to see blah blah. And they hang up and then you're better and go to like, Ashley Judd. What are you doing for dinner? So just kind of just like, I'm done, I'm done. I'm out. Yeah, yeah. That's right. Yeah. What he did for that whole, like, sequence of them trying to find the sound and there's like walking around and you're like, oh, but it is interesting. Look at it though I like I'm going to say I realize this is the rewatch okay. There's a few scenes and they're like trying to find the sound. And then the then in episode 17 when it's Cooper in Diane Gordon and when you meet David Lynch. Yeah. Sorry. When they're walking through it's in a basement. Yeah. But he has the key to the northern the bedroom. But I don't know if the key, if they're in the basement of the Great Northern I don't know. It's it's a definitely a basement. You don't say where it is. I assume it's Great Northern because of the key, but I also noticed that I also hear that you hear the same humming down there. Yeah. Than you would when they were searching, when Ben was researching. So I'm like, I assume it's the basement humming, right? But I don't they don't explain. They don't explain. David Lynch knows. Mark Frost might know they had a falling out two. Right. Like and then they came back I don't know. So they had a falling out around season two. And I thought there was some strange stuff. So that was part of the, you know I got to get him back to come back. I've never read those dossiers either. I would love to do that. Love what they're like. Main character. Should we touch on, Mark. Yeah. I mean, he's he's incredible. I love him, I love him. That's only who the log lady calls, right? And he calls Hall. She only she only interacts with with Hawke. Yeah. Yeah, he looks great. It's like this solid figure, you know, shows back up in the return. Like you can't put he can't move anything past him I love him, I also love in the return because it just talks to me. We were talking about like the Air Force and stuff. When Andy, like, kicks in, something kicks in and becomes really competent. Like when he rescues the girl when he comes out. Yeah. Were together. Right. And like, I love that. I love that change. It really shows the range of the actors. That's something Lynch will do often. Like I'm trying to. Yeah. We talked about it in first two seasons that we're talking. Yeah. I'm like, I was I'm trying to kind of talk about ones like, you know, maybe come back in the return. Like we have Russ Tamblyn as Doctor Jacoby. I mean, they Dean comes back to the Dean. Dean does come back. That's right. Wendy. Robbie, like, comes back for a scene, right? Yeah. Mike. Like this one, I remember I had to ask you, like, we rewatching it? I'm like, so the fireman is good. Like, he's the good guy, the tall guy, and you're like, yes. And I'm like. And Mike is good. You know, I met Mike, Bobby's friend. Like, oh, he's in one scene, the return. Yeah, yeah. Okay. But yes, Mike is the one our man might want our man. And then he used to, he used to, he used to run with Bob and then realize Bob was bad and I'm bad. I'm very bad. Grayson brisket Lynch favorite as the mom. She's always good as Laura's mother. I mean, the way she's slipping out in that pilot when she finds out that she's dead, like, oh my God, I mean, just going for it. And then. Yeah, what I love catching back up with her in the return and just. Yeah. Audrey, what is up with her? Audrey. Of course. Of course. I was a mess. A very big mess. Yes, indeed. Catherine Coulson as Log lady. She was also in. She produced Eraserhead. It's a long. She's like, been in Lynch's world. I love that shit. Fire walk with me. Just to focus on that for a little bit. I really do love that he gave Shirley the chance to come back and play Laura Palmer, and we get to see her, but this is like one, I think one of the most intense movies he made, like, I don't I know you haven't necessarily seen all of his work, but like, this shit really goes there. And it premiered at Cannes. It was part of the it was in competition for the Palme d'Or, did not win, I don't know, and I mean Wild at Heart one which is, insane. The two movies. No, no, no, that was 1990. So it won in 1990. And then he puts it up, he puts this up, and this thing was like panned, but again, had a huge kind of resurgence. I think with the help of the return, the criterion disc is amazing. I watched all those missing pieces. They're good. Yeah. Oh, you did well. I've seen them before. I think I watched them, I think I watch them after I rewatch. It's crazy that it's like it. They're like an hour and a half of legit scenes, a lot of the older characters. But I liked some of the the Bobby with his dad stuff. And I said, like, it's funny, this thing, you see, Chad Desmond beat the shit out of that. Yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah, that was fun. Yeah, we get more Bowie. We do like a lot more. A lot more. Oh, my God, it looks like we got to do it. Dale Cooper, me, I love that you say the long was the backup from the mike. Yeah, yeah. Meet the long lost Phillip Jeffries. Yeah. And then, I mean, Chris Isaac showing up, but also a big kind of fuck you about fire walk with music. Kyle McLaughlin's barely in it, so he's like, not even really I that he didn't want to be. He didn't want to. Dale Cooper that's what I heard. That's like too, that he didn't want to be Typekit. Obviously he's more he's in more missing pieces. Yeah. Yeah he is, he is. There's some like original. They bring back a lot of the original characters because Fire Walk With me largely just focuses on Laura Palmer story Love Keeper. Love keeper never had a chance. They try to talk about how to get them back. That key for the other, Chris Isaacs. Oh, Chris, I'm trying to return them. I don't know, I don't think I could do it. I already I was sicker, I don't remember. Okay, that would have been cool if he came back. But it's funny how big of a performance, how big of a role Lynch has himself like in The Return. He's a big character in it and he's hysterical. You never hear, always just turn his hearing aid up. Oh, he did say fire walk with me is very important for the return. Yeah. It's like it's so much from Fire Walk with me. Yeah. That's why I like those two. Like as a thing. And usually when I engage with this material again, I honestly will typically go to fire Walk with me and then the return and yeah, I definitely plays heavily. It's really not a rewatch movie for me. I it's a hard movie to rewatch. I also feel like I personally like Sheryl Lee kind of overreacts a little bit. She loses it at the end, but she's going nuts. Yeah, but it's she's really good at playing a tormented person. Yeah. I mean, she just tormented all hell and like, again, I saw that. I've seen it at least once in In the Alamo with, you know, like a sold out crowd. And they always ask before, like, how many people have seen it? Usually most people have not seen it, which was the case for this. And he was like, yeah, you know, good luck. The last like 30 minutes. Yeah. Once we're in the pink room and then yeah, now we have, Oh, who has stepped up to play Donna? Kelly because Laura Flynn is fine. Want to come out? Yeah, I had no problem. Like, I don't know. I mean, I really do. Yeah. It doesn't. Yeah. It's. She serves your purpose. Yeah. Yeah, I love his whole filmography. This ranked seven for me in the David Lynch filmography. So it's not. And I laugh with me. Yeah, yeah. And I say it at the beginning. Like my number eight is the straight story. And I think that movie is perfect. So, you know, every subsequent film is great. My number ten was Dune. Number nine was inland straight story fire walks me. Yes. But I do think there are some people who love Lynch in their favorite movie of his is Fire Walk With me. I don't I've like never talked to these people in person, but I see them online because they love that law. They loved it. This is just like, you know, a two hour, 20 minute capsule piece of the law. Yeah, but it is a movie. I mean, I, I, I think, I do think asked me person. I think Twin Peaks does a little better when you can say, fuck yeah, absolutely I do too. I mean, it's a completely different dynamic, but I mean, if they would have done the return on ABC, no way. Like no way. You can't do that. Yeah it you that's what I mean. Like when people saw this they were like what my beloved characters. I know everyone's weird, but they're saying this language. And Laura Palmer's like this cokehead that's, you know, ultimately does not help lead to her demise, but it just gets her around a lot of, questionable characters. Heather Graham in it for one scene. Yeah, yeah. And then definitely, I always forget her name, but the woman is Happy Gilmore's grandma. Oh, yeah, I talked about it yesterday. And then, like, thank you, France. And then Kenny, and then the boy who looks like David Lynch, who's with her? Her grandson. Oh, yeah. He does like there. Yeah. Mrs. Tree man. I mean, they're the last names mentioned. The return, the woman who lives in the house, who lived here before Mrs. the Tramp on the shelf, aren't I? Yeah. Well, no, thank you, Francis Bacon. She can get evil in Twin Peaks like she is evil. So if you've never seen Happy Gilmore and you've never seen Twin Peaks, you start. You're like, happy Gilmore's grandmother is like, evil is over. I shall Fine is the name of the people that own the trailer in fire. Walk with me at the trailer where Harry Dean Stanton is. Yeah, yeah. We're bad. She goes down names that might. I love that his. I always love David Lynch's names because sometimes they're all, like, really like, just strong American light. I don't know, James Hurley, Carl Rodd. Like, they're these American daisies that you also get Ron at Pulaski. I don't know, Phillip Jeffries, the man from another planet killer Bob like that. Just funny stuff. Funny stuff. But yeah, the movie again, as you're saying, not exactly rewatchable, but yeah. No, but it's good. It is. Good it is. Yeah. You know, you see, like Bobby kill that guy because. Yeah, that's brought up and kills him over what sweetener like. Yeah. Oh yeah. It's cocaine. But then it turns out to be sweetener. Oh, in those missing pieces, you get to see him flip out when he realizes that Coke is sweetener, like he loses it. It was funny. It was really. No, I yeah, I like the return. It's just it's just, the return or fire walk for me. Okay? Okay. All right. Well, I do like the return before I walk me. It's, it's a lot. Well, we were talking earlier, like, you know, pink room, the ropes when we go to that cabin and everything that happens there. There was a it was a lot, harsher. He cut it. Yeah. If I, if I wasn't, like, doing a rewatch with someone like I, I don't I'm just like, you know, you just see everything. So. Yeah. You have to watch for I welcome you to watch The Return. Right. So. But you're just not going to, like, fire it up. No. You're right exactly. No. Probably me. Not either. In class I'm doing a pod like this or I'm in. Want to watch? Like the. If I'm doing the whole Twin Peaks thing, then I'll put this on. Yeah, but it's also like the scene with Heather Graham in Fire Walk with me when she tells her, tells Laura about the lodge, and Cooper's in there and there are two Coopers. Yes, Jesus. Read it in your diary. And those are the pages that are missing. Yeah. And those are the pages that Hawke finds in the bathroom door in the return to return. Yes, but there's the one missing. Yeah. How did they get there? They propose that Hawke assumes. Proposes that Dylan could have hid them there. Yeah, yeah. But there. So they said there's one more page missing, but they don't. But the page they the page they found are like two Coopers. Yeah. That's right, I, I mean, that's such a great scene when he finds it like install door and everything, but I forgot that that's. Those are the missing pages, the pages of the diary. All right. Very good stuff. How like what a flex to say. See you in 25 years. And then he. That wasn't planned, though. That's what I mean. Like, it's really hard to pull this stuff off. And he had trouble getting the return off the ground. It was like, I know you wanted a lot of money. He wanted full control, you know, and showtimes. When he left, do you left the project? Exactly. Yeah. And then showtimes, like, we really want to make this work. So it looked like it wasn't going to go. And then it did. They film for a long time. He just filmed it as one big. Well, there was no there was no episode count. Right? Until he was like, you'll know what it is when it's done. Yeah, when it's done. And I think you just shot everyone out, like in their locations and did well. He never gave full scripts at all. Piecemeal. Yeah, I think that's how he always is. I think it's like that a lot, even for his films. I don't think a lot of people get full scripts. So yeah, you're you have to trust him, I do think and I read, I read somewhere he only like did a couple takes. He's not a big take guy because they're not seen and they return with Matthew Lillard is like I think I'll get it in two. Takes the crying yeah he did it. He's really good I think Lynch's he's Lynch is definitely not someone who's going to be like if you nailed it like that. All right Matthew one more for safety. He's not going I know I think if you got it you got it. Let's move on. The show is big. But that's also like the biggest thing he's ever directed. It's 18 hours longer even. And that is presumably the last thing he's going to direct because we talked about it last episode sadly, is emphysema. Now, I thought he was traveling with Naomi and Laura Dern. I thought he was trying to do something as well, but I heard that news before this emphysema news where he's essentially saying, I cannot leave my house because if I get sick with anything, I'm done for. So I maybe if he wants to try to direct something from his house, I don't know if he's still smoking cigarets. He's not. He said he quit. He said he quit. I mean, if you can quit smoking, if David Lynch can quit smoking, anyone can. It was such a part of. Well, there's a scene in The Return where he takes a cigaret apart from Tammy. Yeah. He's like, no, isn't it Laura? I thought it was Laura Dern saying, okay, yeah, but Tammy's in the hallway. We had some good times, had some good times. Such a love smoking, such a long scene. And Tammy's like Gordon. He's sitting there looking at it, like, stared at it just like a puff. Yeah. One scene. Yeah. It's funny. Yeah. You know. Wow. Does he do that? He does. Wow, I love that. Yeah. He released a statement like I loved smoking so much. I love the tobacco. I love the process of it all. But ultimately they've you know, they've led to what is probably going to be the death of me. And. Yeah. So but again, I agree he could did I imagine him saying he would direct remote or something. That's what I mean. If he can direct from his home like direct remote. Yeah. That's I've heard him pitch that so I, I don't know could is that has it been done before. Is it a thing that could happen. Does he want to I don't know, I would watch anything from him. I mean, as we talked about in the last episode, like I'll put on Inland Empire, I won't understand all of it. But if he's going to make something, I'll watch it. Yeah, we both saw that one in 4K in the theater. I you and I, I was that for you? Is that is that the movie where the tagline is A woman in trouble? Yes. Yes, she's in trouble. Where he let her. Do you know about his Oscar campaign? So I have like, a house on Hollywood Boulevard, like in a little grass patch. He went there with the cowbell. I remember a cow and just had a giant picture of Laura Dern and Inland Empire, for your consideration. It, then every marketing budget, one of those were like, have you seen I'm Sylvan, seen a couple of David Lynch's movies. Like, I can happy to say that I have. I can cross it in the Empire off the list, and I will never revisit it. That's fine. Yeah, I think that is what I have seen it. Yeah, I do after this because I've, I did it, you know, I've seen it a few times and did it again for this. I mean maybe it'll hit me at some point like. All right, I'll put it on. Maybe I'll keep the fast forward handy for the Polish problem. Or like the bunny scene about the rabbits. It's like a short elevator. They'll be watched is. What are the rabbits like? It's so. It's like, what are we doing? What does it have to do with anything? Yes. And then Empire. Well, season, I want to pivot a little bit, too. We've been talking, I think, mostly about the return, but now to kind of specifically focus on that and that because that I think it's kind of clear that I am coming from a place of fire walk with me in the return. That is where that is what I've seen the most. You have watched it much more recently. I'm not put it. I love the whole the whole damn show, but I can speak most confidently, I think On the Return because I've seen it three times. I watched it live and then watch it with you when Covid hit, and then watch it again. This wow, what a. I mean, what, like a magnificent magnum opus to put up for for if this is his final thing, like it's his baby, it's Twin Peaks and I think all 18 episodes, you know, top to bottom. Is it perfect? I don't know, there are a lot of questions that are brought up, a lot of that stuff. But I think this is as close to like television perfection in the modern age of television as we get. Mr.. Jackpot. Mr.. Jackpot, I will say Augie Jones. I will say, I've noticed there's there's a there's a fan that it subreddit that I follow. Okay. People I have seen a couple times people have mentioned is there a fan edit of The Return and they're pretty much told go fuck yourself with perfect. So they they don't. It's very fun. I love it, I love it, yeah, yeah. Go fuck yourself. It's perfect I love that. What what else is there to edit. Yeah. It's like because like, oh you could take a lot of time out. Oh yeah. There's like there's a lot of, like I wouldn't notice like the back third of the show. It's like he's like, oh he wants you to be an hour. It's like saying, oh, say if I say a line, it cuts to you. You say nothing cuts to me. I say nothing comes back to you. Yes. I'm like, you don't need that back and forth. It's a lot of breathing room. It's just him either having fun being a dick or both. Yeah, yeah. And just this is what I want to do. This is what I'm doing, and I'm sure it all. But like you said, likes to him. It's. I mean, it is called Twin Peaks The Return, but I feel like it should be more called the return because they're, they're they spend time in Twin Peaks. But it's not. It is not like I. Yeah. I wrote this down. It's like it's Twin Peaks, Buckhorn, South Dakota, Vegas, Odessa, Texas, New York City. They cut to Buenos Aires a couple times. Yeah, it's a black box thing. Yeah. So it's just it's every it's everywhere. Yeah. Yeah. It's really built out. And that was tough for me at first too, when I was first watching it going, okay, I guess I see what he's doing here and you got to accept it. Like we're saying, one character will come in and have some sort of significance, but then maybe we'll see me when I like. When I watched it second time with you. Yeah, that was literally like, that was a binge. Oh yeah. Yeah, we crushed when I rewatched it recently. We watched the first 11 or 12 episodes. Yeah. And then we took a break for two weeks because we went out of town, and then we came back and my girlfriend was like, I, I forgot, sure, sure. Oh, it's a lot. Yeah, yeah. So but then she started to remember. But it's like I was like, you didn't lose momentum, but it was. But it was one of those like, we should pick it up again because it's kind of like she said, she probably wouldn't finish it. It wasn't for me. She's like, you just don't. And I had to warn her. It's like, because the first time I saw it, I was pissed. Not that pissed, but I was a little. It's like. It's like, where the fuck is Cooper? Yes, exactly. But then the third time, and now that I've seen it a third time, it's everything Dougie Jones does is so whimsical and he brings so much like positivity. He turns so many people's life around. Yeah. Lives around. He was led by being, like, uncommunicative. He's a joy. No, he's a joy to watch. Yeah, he's I grinned. Obviously we all wanted Cooper. Yes. Because. And we get it for like a minute. 30 minutes. Yeah. Maybe. Maybe. Yeah. Is the coffee all right? This is, But it's but it's like, you know, the fact that Kyle plays like he plays, but I consider four characters. He plays Dougie. No, no, he plays the original Dougie. Yeah. Like in the one scene. Oh, yeah. He's like a fucking. He's like the original Doug. Yeah. Like Cooper. Dougie. He plays Mr. C, he plays Dale Cooper. Yes. And he kind of plays that other version of the finale in like the, you know, the the weird when he's walking with Laura. Yeah, yeah. Weird. Cooper. Yeah. Like much more grounded. Yeah. And he's not as like. It's more like, what's going on? Yeah, yeah. Like, where are we? Good call. Yeah, but it's just he. But yeah, I just, I don't, I don't hate Doug I love, I love Doug. Yeah I'm winning the casino like the slots of hello hello. And then those brothers hate that they don't love again. But yeah. Yeah. It's just you don't really I, you don't really get the you get the show with a watch. It's like one of those. Which is why I think Twin Peaks fans are so fun is because it's the payoffs, the research. Yeah. Yeah, just the discussions of it. And that's I think like I get much more pleasure and enjoyment breaking down and discussing Twin Peaks than I ever will with Megalopolis, because like, Megalopolis is like, I know I'm just bringing it up. It's it's so convoluted all over the place. Yes, yes, the return at times is very all over the place. Yes. But I just enjoy it. Yeah. That like owns it. It owns it. I'm not sure. Like I can't compare the two. Yeah, but I'm just trying to say like two big passion projects. So like they're, there's some. Yeah. They're comparable in some ways you know. Well but yeah I didn't land at all. I just think we were given a lot of time in, in Twin Peaks and I, I just, I still think, you know, 25 years of being stuck in the lodge, the town has become poisoned. Yeah. Like I said, it's just. And you can just tell that it's not a good place. It's fine. It's it's like fine, but, you know, it's got it's like it's got their fair share of fuck ups. Like the original Twin Peaks did. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, it's just not the way I think people thought it was gonna go. If obviously people assumed it was going to be Cooper getting out and then Cooper beating Bob. Right. That's what we assumed. Yeah. And then and then, you know, as I was watching the first season, the first time, I'm just like, oh, episode 17. Like, fuck yeah. Yeah. Like it's it's he did it. And then I'm like, wait, there's one more. Oh it's David Lynch. I'm going to be disappointed. I think a lot that I remember watching it live and after 17 being like is okay. We it feels like we're done. Like it kind of feels like we're done. And he throws in episode 18. We'll talk about that. It kind of at the end because I love that one. But there is there's an episode from The Return before episode 18 that gets a lot of play and you love it, I love it. A lot of the fans like it. That is part eight. Gotta light. Very good. Holy shit. I think this is one of the best episodes of television ever. I think it's best episode of Twin Peaks. Just like a or in general in general, I think. I don't know how he got this idea or whatever it is, but also like to watch this. In the era of Oppenheimer, which is a movie I've seen, once or twice, and it's like Oppenheimer birthed Judy or birthed this, like, evil, but the whole, like, atomic bomb testing. They're testing an atomic bomb that unleashes this evil force, that creates Judy and Judy creates Bob and all this stuff. And that's I just I love that. And, you know, watching the whatever that crazy shit going out of the gas station, like all that shit. And Laura sent to fight Bob. Yeah. Some. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's why I think, I mean, I think there's the whole scene where Laura is created. Yeah, because who goes into the, the, like, little thing goes into someone's mouth and that's like, well, that well I it's it's implied. Well I guess in the dossier is, it is proven. It is said that it is Sarah. That's what I write her mom. Right. Yeah. Yeah. But also it's like but people don't know if it's Judy or if it's Laura. Sure, sure. Because it but it makes sense of his. Judy. I but then it is coincidence that Sarah also gives birth to Laura. Yeah. Because it's like Laura's kind of created to fight Bob and Judy like. Yeah. Put. Yeah. We're putting our hands up, put our hands up walking away like sure. But it's I'm sure like you said, we're not as well versus most people who do like the for our videos. Yeah. Video breakdowns. And the reason that I've, I've researched and stuff is that Laura wants to if she doesn't die, then they're going to Bob is going to keep accruing her garment. But yeah. Yeah. Pain and sorrow far is like, let's just nip it in the bud and I'm going to die. And yeah, I'll be no more. No more of that, no more of that. And which is why there's was why Cooper when he, when he time travels. Yes. And those 17 and he plucks her from the timeline. There's a scene where cuts to Sarah freaking out and she's, like, pounding Sarah's portrait in The Return. And it's because I think Judy doesn't have that source of power anymore. Right? Right. And then and she obviously. Then Judy pulls a fast one on Cooper. Yes. Takes Laura and put her somewhere else. Yes. Where he puts her. We don't fucking know. We don't know. We don't know. Because when he tracks her down, she's not going. She's not Laura Palmer. And she's like, Carrie Page, there's something in that, isn't there? Someone like, there's something there. Yeah. Is a guy in the room and he's shot in the face. Yeah, well, no, but it's like. Is it. Did he put her in a different timeline? Did he put her in our timeline? I yes, our timeline. Yes. Like the real life that I saw the video where they said the woman that answers that door, the Palmer residence door and introduces herself, I solved I don't know if this is true, but that was just the woman who lived in that house, and they probably were doing a location. Scout and Lynch pitched this to her. I think that helps explain some of her flat delivery. The implication is that they're now in our world, like our real world. And I suppose when because the details like what? But you're you're. Yeah. And then she then again, it's like she's figuring it all out as Laura and then lets out this horrendous screen. Oh no. But back to episode eight. Yeah, I know you're excited. Talk about it I love it. But yeah, it's it's pretty much just one art. Yes. That's it. It's just like a, it's like an art installation. Yeah. And then you have like, it feels like five and ten minutes at ten minutes, but like all the woodsmen like, oh my God, it's a long time. It's it's a long time. A crazy sound that Lynch sound. Oh yeah. It's strobes. Yeah. It's, I don't fucking know. And then. And then I remember when I rewatched it, when Andy got sucked into the whatever that is. Yeah, it might be the White Lodge. We don't know. We've never seen either. Yeah, I've only seen like the waiting room. But he, and he's pretty much shown all of episode eight. Yeah. Sitting there. Right. Exactly. And it's just. Yeah. That's right. But but yeah episode eight is definitely I don't do you would use the word of triumph I don't. Yeah. Yes. Because it just it completely deviates from things. I just can't bring up the entire thing. But when that, when it starts, when the atomic bomb testing starts, you're like, what is this? It's show time. Give him notes. I don't believe so. I mean, maybe because the running times aren't even. It's not like they're all in our long, close range. Yeah, closest, I think. I think that was part of the thing. You wanted a certain budget and you know, that's too much. And I think it was a lot of that kind of back and forth. But yeah, maybe some notes, but I don't use it. Yeah. You it's obviously when you see Judy vomit out Bob, you don't know that is Judy. Right. Exactly. I didn't I didn't know. Yeah. Yeah. You're like okay who is this. Yeah. So he is ever since Dune, he never made anything again that he didn't have final cut on. So I don't I mean, maybe they can give notes and he could take them as suggestions, but it doesn't mean to them it is definitely. It's not what I remembered. That whole burst, like the whole bomb scene. And just like the convenience store scene, it's longer than I thought it was. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And, it gets to a point where I'm like, oh my god, hurry up. Yeah. Some points. It's like, but obviously like, you know, then you have the got the woodsman that walks out like crushed people's heads. And then he just, he says the radio announcement over and over. Yeah. It's just it's just a it's a beautiful nightmare. Beautiful nightmare. Absolutely. It absolutely is. Oh, God. And then yeah, I kind of I guess he's trying to explain the whole like, origin of everything, which it sounds like a bizarre cross thing. I don't know, that's what you said. You said it was more Marxist in the dossiers. I believe one of them takes place. One of them, he wrote. I think obviously between the series and The Return, that sure. One he released what? After the return? Which kind of is that called? The final okay, which I and I am more you should now than ever now than I've rewatched all three seasons of the movie when the past like few months. Yeah, yeah. So it just sounds. Yeah, it sounds really. And I know what answers some stuff. Most of the stuff, hopefully, I don't know, I like I would like to read them. I would like to as well. But yeah I after episode eight the show does like I don't it takes a shift but it just I don't know I never I was never bored. Yeah. No no never never I may not understand why we're watching what we're watching and all that stuff, but yeah, it's not a boring show at all. It may, like you're saying, with your girlfriend, like he can lose you. And maybe it becomes frustrating because you're like, where the hell is this going to go? And but also, I, I watched it my third time, I didn't I was patient, I had no need to be like, what the fuck is happening there? Yeah, you're not anticipating everything. You know, the beats it, it's going to go and you're already like accepting of that, which makes it fun. But also, you know they get they got Eddie Vedder, they get Nine Inch Nails. Yeah. We got to talk about that ending. Not every episode but most, most performances in yeah in the bar. And they're just so good. Like I love Eddie, but yeah, Nine Inch Nails are great. I think it's released early. Oh yeah, of course he does. Wild Wild West. That's such a good performance I love that. Yeah, what a cool thing to like. And he holds those for a long time. And then he'll start the credits like at the end of the song and you're like, oh, that was just doing that. I mean, we know he loves music. He it's so performances are such a strong part of his movie, his movies. So but yeah, I love those. I just, I, I don't know when I will rewatch The Return again, but I can, I will say I probably will. Yeah. But it's oh I definitely will. Yeah. Yeah. It's they, they touch enough on all the characters I think to satisfy you. Like obviously you would want more Cooper. Sure, sure. I didn't really give a shit about Audrey's plot. Yeah, yeah. That's I, I took me rewatching it. I took it as like, oh, I don't know if you remember, there was a soap opera inside Twin Peaks. The original. It was called Invitation to Love. Oh, my. It was a very campy soap, and I just took it. And that's how I took Audrey. Scenes of like, we mentioned all these characters. It felt very soapy. I'm like, oh, this is this feels like a soap opera, I don't know, is this true? That was a Sherilyn Fenn. Yeah. Yeah, sure. And then that's I think she showed up and that's not what she wanted to do. And so Lynch just rewrote all of her shit for her. I mean, I think you're going to be in this stuff but never interact with a single character from the show. There you go. And that's true. I have Cooper right now. Oh. Oh, no, no, no, you're right, he returned. She only talked about Charlie. Yeah. Husband. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. That's it. Weird. Weird. She shows up. I mean, she shows up to she shows up to the Roadhouse to dance. Yeah. That's right. Which is. They're weird. Yeah. Yeah. She doesn't. She definitely does not have a lot to do. Yeah. Which is, it's definitely darker because as it is told that she does, in fact rape Audrey and Diane. Yes. And Richard is the offspring of both. Yes. And. Yeah, you can. But the Diane thing's weird. It's like, yes, that happens. But yes, she's also a tulpa. Right? Right. It's that's a little she's still texting him. Obviously it is. And then her and Cooper have sex in the end, which feels. Which is very awkward. Not like we're drawing out, but it is involved. Yeah, yeah, it is implied that they. It's like they're not doing it for pleasure. They're doing it for. It's like, more ritualistic to write to summon Judy. Yes. Yes, exactly. To wait turns off the pain and sorrow that is that is true. That's what I was told by an explainer. Yeah, yeah, I mean, it. It's kind of. It can be fun sometimes to go, like, find the right video on YouTube and we'll share them and be like, watch this, watch. And, you know, as much as like it takes forever for Cooper to return, it's the entirety of episode 17. It's like seeing them all in the sheriff's office together. Yeah, like, you know, and like Lucy shooting Mr. C is, like, the biggest curve. Oh, yeah. Oh, and it's just. I'm like, I'm so glad it was her. And it's just like I mean it isn't. He says hello to Gordon. That's it. It doesn't even talk to Albert. Yeah. And it's just, it's just it was felt like such a nice culmination I love it but it's just it's just obviously you want more but it's like it's it's just enough. Yeah yeah yeah. That's what his face is like superimposed everything. Right. Which is very Wizard of Oz. I mean, that's one side of it. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. That's what the guy, my guy with the green glove gets to fight. Bob. So good. Are you Freddy? Are you Freddy? This is my destiny. So. Yeah, I mean, and we talked about it, but, like, the the amount of cast in this, like you. Oh, just saying how lucky. Oh, my God, the Mitchum brothers, the great Mitchum brothers are fantastic. I love those guys so much, they buy you all this nice shit. I just. Yeah, there's really not a bad, like. There's no bad one off performance. Baltazar, get he shows up. He's great. I love it when he like he's in the bar and he points to lady, you know. Yeah, everyone. Everyone's really good at it. But you, you're like, oh my God, here we go. This person showing up. Okay, well I think they probably also want to work with Lynch. You get what exactly. Yeah, exactly. I think people just like get if there's a whiff out, you probably tell your manager agent, like, I'll do anything. Tell him I'll do anything, I don't care. Yeah I like yeah Caleb Landry Jones, he plays and he's not a psychopath. Yeah he's he's great I don't know the actor the of the horn kid. He's good too. Like he's a. Oh yeah he's a psychopath. Yeah. He's like but kale Andrew Jones always great at playing you know nutjob characters. This is another one. Yeah it's great. And oh man it's he's like freaky scary. The return I love the return. Jesus, Jesus. You even got the Log Lady in there. And she died shortly after, right? It was. I knew she was. She filmed all of scenes, I believe in one go probably. Yeah. And then I was, I couldn't remember. I think she has four total. I thought it was three because I'm like, wait a minute. I feel like, you know, it's done because even talk even says it in like episode 16 or 17. Like he says, the Log Lady is passed. Yeah. But there's but I was waiting for. I'm like, there is a call. Like he hangs up. He says, good says good night. Margaret hangs up and then he looks at the phone and this is good bye, Margaret. And it's kind of like, just know. And she even says she's dying. Yeah. Phone. Yeah. But, she is dying in her life, too. Yep. Like she's very sick and. Yeah, but, it was nice to get her in there, even though. Yeah, it was just it's a lot of it's it's a lot. It's a like even rewatching it makes me realize that Michael Sarah I and I read it, I think for this to me too is that he is in fact, Richard Jermaine's kid. That's what it is not. And that's what you see. He's too pompous. He's not as like lovely and whimsical as Andy. He's too full of himself. Yeah. And just oh, that reminds you of Tremaine, right? So you're like, it's all these little things. There's all these little hints, like you're saying. Episode one of The Return. There's something that pays off in episode 18. You're like, Jesus. Like, I didn't even know that. Well, it'll always be. Yeah, we'll never know. It mean never doesn't even know, I hope. Maybe not. I hope he does. Maybe he does. But that's part of the I talked about this we we Nick and I talked about this. So much in the last episode. That is the, huge appeal of his work. Because this isn't a guy who's afraid to, like, show you more material. Here's what I cut out of. He does that with a lot of stuff. But then and and he'll talk about like, oh, this is how you know, what we did here? This. But it'll never explain what it's all about. Never explain how it connects. And I really respect that. I really do. And you can take all the mystery out we talked about. We have talked about him. We've discussed off the pod. When we were first watching it, I was like, Is Bowie going to be in this? Yeah, yeah, we're going to be in this. Right. And then he was too sick. Yeah. Was too sick. And we got a fucking teapot. Yeah. Exactly. Turning David Bowie character into. That's right. It's like a big I just I just I just think I'm just like, oh he's traveled so much. He's no longer in human form. I'm Philip, please. We're actually really, really real anymore. Yeah. I just the way they do that, like, you could see him being like, just lynch thinking this stuff out. Well, we can't get Bowie a teapot. Sure is. Cooper. Yeah. Yeah. I really like his performance in it, too. I really like that he showed up and is just, like, this complete goof. Great love. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Love. Cause great. God, this the constant bit of turning the, You're being too loud or what? You know, turning things up and down. So good. The Jerry Horne bit makes no sense, but it's great. Yeah, this is good. They have good. They have good, like, lighthearted scenes for, like, to take you take a break from the dark ones. Yeah. And I think that's why. Yes. Yeah I think those are nice little pauses. Nice little breaks. Yeah. Like or like, David Cocker and he's one of the, he's one of the three. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. He's great brothers and they're just so stupid and funny. Yeah, yeah. Like, they're really funny. And we talked about, Tom Sizemore. Yeah. Sizemore. He looks like he's just barely old. Not. I like his performance, but he looks like he's barely hanging in there. You're so Mullins. Yeah, yeah. Oh. He's great. This Grammy was great. I love I love when there's the scene in the when he's doing the physical and he's shirtless in the hospital, and Jesus realizes how sexy he is. Yeah, she's like, wow. I went, oh, wow, this is okay. And when she goes and pays off those guys, she's like, where's civility gonna stop it? What actor is in it? Who's one of the two guys? I forget, shit. I'm never there. He's a lost. He was also for. Oh, Jeremy Davies. Jeremy. Jeremy is like a one, like. Oh, yeah. And he's great. Yeah, great. Just people who want to work, I get it. Yeah. They just want to even shows up. Yeah, you just want to work with him. It makes total sense. Oh, Ethan should be from Mallrats. Yeah, he's. He's in the first scene. Exactly when? That first episode with the hot dog. Yeah. That's it. It's like. Okay, okay. Hi, Patrick. Fischler. Who's Fischler? Who's so good? And, he plays like, the guy who gets literally scared to death on Mulholland Drive and just seeing him, like, taking calls, like ordering stuff around as a Las Vegas character. I mean, there we go. Through the whole damn list are all good. They're all great. And I yeah, it was been it was so much fun watching that with you. Like, let's do years ago and texting back and forth about it. So much fun just watching it on my own, just because I actually bought the Blu rays for it. And it looks it definitely looks better than streaming, but so I was happy with that. Also sounds better. He put so much work in the sound. He does. Yeah, yeah. Like you'll hear it. Yeah. Like obviously electricity is rampant. Yeah they're important right for him. That damn trailer I just I for totally forgot the 15 or 16 when he electrocute himself, I forgot he's watching TV. It doesn't happen. Someone says. Yeah, someone on the TV says Gordon Cole. Yeah. It's like the first time you see Dougie, actually. Or Cooper. Doug. You like react? Yeah. Like in. Yeah. It's like he's like, no longer like a zombie, right? So then he does that and he crawls the socket, right. And gives himself. Oh yeah. Talk I, I like Tammy I yeah I like Tammy too as well. Yeah with the FBI right. Yeah I like her I think. And she's like it helps that she's there because they often will sit down like Albert will like give a lot of exposition and tell it. Explaining it to us is what these rooms are. These lodges we absolutely do like who they're always going to be. Blue Rose. Yeah. And kind of yeah, we definitely need her. And she's great. I love the way that she plays. She's a singer, I think. And Monica really? Yeah. Monica. Lucy. Sounds of another Monica Bellucci dream playing herself. Yes, of course, of course. There's, Yeah, there's just there's so many. Where do you think this fits? Like in the David Lynch sort of like law. Like, do you think it defines him? Like, is this the David Lynch when people think of David Lynch and they're like, oh yeah, that's the Twin Peaks guy. This is the one Acropolis. Well, it's like, yeah, but it's so many more hours. It's like, God. I mean if we counted all the hours, but it's but it's like he he was also one of those rare cases where you give a such a prolific director. Yeah. Like just here's a blank check. Do whatever you want. Right, right. Like, I mean, this happened like, right at the tail end of people blowing money on content. Yeah. I think it was the return. Yeah. Yes. So it's like, I don't know, short term of any profit probably. Yeah. Who knows. I don't know how that works. It's I again I haven't seen a lot all of David Lynch's work, but I think Twin Peaks I think is his most popular, obviously his most popular. I think it's the thing people probably talk about the most. Just in total. Nick and I talked about that. Mulholland drive is his masterpiece, and I think that's the best movie he's made. But I think part of his legacy, it's either Twin Peaks, Mulholland Drive, whatever it is, maybe people think it's Eraserhead. I think people way up there. Like, I think people discover Lynch's content through Twin Peaks. Yeah, yeah, I think a lot of kind of opens the door to it. Yeah. But yeah, I, I don't think I'd seen anything before. I saw Twin Peaks that was Lynch related. Oh, really? That was like the first that actually me. I've seen Mulholland Drive once. Maybe I saw Mulholland Drive before. Yeah. And I really. I need to rewatch that movie. Yeah. But, what else have you seen again? From him. Him? I saw Dune. Oh, wow. The heart lost highway. Lost highway. Fire. Walk with me. Yeah, my Eraserhead, I I've seen it once. Okay. I'm good. Yeah, yeah, this it's thick as well. That's kind of. Nick. I'm. I'm blue velvet. You got it. I saw the okay, okay. Like twice. No, but Eraserhead is. I mean, the return. I guess there's a lot of Eraserhead is in the return. Yes, it I have become. Not like I've just become more invested in Eraserhead. Researching our lynch pod. And when you watch that in The Return, like as I did there. Yeah. Even the the sound effect of sound effects of Philip Jeffries, like as that teapot like that is in Eraserhead. Like that's in there. You can. Yeah. There's a lot of the same stuff. The carpet, the crazy, like, triangle looking carpet is in a razor house. So yeah. Yeah. And stuff the, the producer was largely like all that shit. Yeah. You know, it's like. Yeah, but yeah, you definitely. It's like, if you're thinking Eraserhead is his first film and then. Yeah, like twin. If The Return happens to be his last, right, then it's like a culmination of everything. Yeah, exactly. It's. Yeah, it's nice to see like, you know, he dabbled in like a PG film, which was Alpha man. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's I'm saying. Yeah, he's done. Oh yeah. He's done a very his spectrum is very broad, very, very, very wide. Yeah. He dune obviously he's I have a lot of B. So he's done a lot of shit and he it's the return is the last thing he does. And I think it's a good swan song to end on. Yeah I totally agree. I think it's like an amazing I'm so glad he got to do it because I kind of talked about this in the last episode, but his first just talking about feature films, his first feature, Eraserhead, last one, Inland Empire, totally self-funded, like he's just scraping money by a razor. It's like five years to make this. They have no money. Inland Empire is this, like, kind of open book thing where there's no completed script and they're just adding scenes to it? Look how that turned out. And that if you're just looking at his film career, you're kind of like, yeah, this makes sense. But I'm so glad because Inland Empire season six and, you know, takes 11 years off, comes back. And that's crazy. Yeah, I mean, it wasn't a fool having because of course he would have been filming Twin Peaks The Return. I bet it took a long time to film, but there were whispers of it for a while. Yes, there were, there were always. And I never got my hopes up. And then when it's like, oh shit, this is happening. Like it's been like 25, 30 years. Yeah, yeah, let's do it. And yes, I'm so glad he got to do it. I'm so glad it's his. It's big like it's equal in episode. Like if he would have done it now so many people have died since it. Yes. Yeah. Exactly. So they're all old. That's true. I mean Robert Forster we talked about like yeah I got there is dead. Yeah. Oh yeah. Go farrier. Yeah yeah I love him dead. Yeah. They're all. Yeah. Oh Peggy Lipton's dead too now Maggie Lipton yes yes that's right. So he got it done at the last, I think last possible moment. He did. He did. Yeah I agree, I agree I did mention this in the Lynch episode, but Rebecca Del Rio also has a performance and she's in In The Return, and she does that amazing song in Mulholland Drive. So it's so cool to see her again. Yeah. The Chromatics. That's right. I forgot about the Chromatics. It's, It's hilarious. I just like, yeah, I love all those damn songs. So the Chromatics get to that right shadow and you get to good shit, man. But yes, very important to David Lynch. And I think this is, you know, going to be at the top of his obituary, as we say, like I do think he's going to be remembered for this. And what's so cool about a lot of his movies, not all of them, but a lot of them. The more you Twin Peaks, he's never going to get like old or stale. There's always going to be new things to investigate about it. Always. There's always going to be a younger generation coming up. And because you watch, he's taking that stuff to the grave. Yeah, he's not going to say anything. And that's the best. And that's I think that's that's what keeps it full of life. Yeah. Because if, if he has to talkies. Yes. If you had these explain or know that it means this I mean it's just not it's not, you know, interesting but it is fascinating to read a book like Lynch on Lynch, which I did, and read him talk so much about the making of his stuff and props and all this, but never, ever explaining what it all means. It's just and he's just not interested. Not at all. And I've always respected that. Yeah, so glad he never caved in. But I do wonder I, you know, I don't know if we're gonna get any more David Lynch content from here on out, but yes, if we got this great Twin Peaks, great. Good stuff, great. Damn good. Damn good. Damn fine coffee. Yeah. I'm satisfied. I think this is fine. So again, if you are one of those diehard fans, I hope he did a service to it. We just really like the show. But I was not interested. Dan and I talked about this a lot and having some like, six hour or whatever part of like breaking it all down because I don't know what it all means and you don't either. And very few people do. So this is just supposed to be fun. And if you've never seen the show or I know a lot of people who still haven't seen The Return, they are like, my dad has never seen it. He watched. He loved season one and two, owns them, but he hasn't gotten to the return. So yeah, this is like a nudge that the return is absolutely worth it. Be patient. Yeah. And don't have to. Just patience. That's yeah I will I'll just say have not low expectations. Just don't expect anything. Yeah. Don't just just you're in his world. You're you're yeah. You're along for the ride. You have no choice but to submit. Yeah. You have to submit. You have to relinquish control. Given. I know that's hard to do for 18 episodes. Eventually you'll stop asking for things. Yeah, because what's the point? When is this person coming in? Eventually, you're just going to give up, and then you're going to be surprised when they do. Good luck with fire walk with me. If you have never seen it or haven't seen it in quite some time. If you bravery, watch it. It's definitely one of the most intense movies Lynch ever made in it. I yeah, I think it was very tough for people 92 and it is age a little better. Yeah. You're doing the hand over your face thing. God I love it so much. Blue Rose podcast indeed. Yeah, yeah. That he's like, what did that tell you? The woman in, like, the red dress. Oh, God. So good. Oh, well, when when? Real quick. When Matthew Miller's head explodes. Oh, my God, he's dead, right? Yeah. He's upstairs. He's dead. That's. That scene is insane. Like that is not. It just explodes. You're like, okay, there's so many just crazy things. You're like, what? We could be here for ages and ages. We could, like, talk about so many different things, so many characters we left off. But you know, love Twin Peaks, love talking about this with you and likewise. Yeah. If we're going to recommend anything, I mean, for in terms of what are you watching it would I would say if you if you really haven't seen any of this stuff, please go watch it. But my specific what are you watching recommendations. Just do go study that episode eight of The Return, which is so damn good. Such a trip. It feels like his version of 2001, like the Odyssey, The Journey in 2001, the trip to Jupiter. A lot of directors get those, Malick did it and Tree of Life. I love it so much. I think it's the the like the best thing that Twin Peaks as a concept delivered. And I love all the Twin Peaks that episode. Wow. Very good. How about you? You want to recommend anything to anyone? Anything at all? He's laughing. Jesus, I do okay. And I'm not going to say Megalopolis, I know I, I will say the Penguin. Oh, the show really like the first episode is one episode has been out. One episode. Okay, I was going to wait to binge it. And I'm like, you know what? I'm gonna watch it. I it's, I, I've never seen this. I've seen a couple episodes of The Sopranos, but everyone's like, it's like, it's good. Okay, okay. Hey. Colin Farrell. No. And he I mean, he seems like he really just embraced what that was about. Oh, like, I was add. I on a on a work trip. So like, I was going to sleep and just had that on in my hotel room and it was him and his. I don't know if it's his wife, the the girl. Oh, that's. No, that's, that's her name to Tara. That's John Rose Dyer. Okay. Okay. So I was seeing them talking to like, oh, okay. This I didn't know it was going to be like people sitting down talking kind of show. Oh, you you you have empathy for him. Yeah. Yeah. Listen. Yeah. Okay. Cool. Cool I don't know there's you see it and you see the size of his personal life okay. So you get. Yeah. Yeah. Some like somber moments. Yeah. It's actually. Yeah. You get in a way rude way. You care for his character in front. If you looked like that, you would have some somber moments. Man, it's tough to talk. Yeah, tough. And I like how they added that he waddles because he limps. Yeah, yeah. I wonder how many episodes it's going to be total. 6 or 8, I think. Okay. I think you don't want me. Yeah. By the time this episode airs, who knows how many episodes of that will have aired. So go check out the Penguin. I am going to watch it. I was interested in seeing that. So cool. Good. Reckless. Yeah, I guess you have to watch it before that. Part two I don't know if they're even doing that. Is that going to happen? Filming? Oh it's filming. Yeah, it's filming soon. Okay. And they're. Because. Yeah. Because it this is a direct sequel to The Batman. So they'll do Barry Killian as the Joker, I guess, I don't know. Yeah. The Joker. No, I mean, we have to include this in the past, but it's like, no, I've. So I've heard rumors off of Reddit and stuff that the. So you know how the end of the Batman when everything gets flooded in? Yes. So the rumor is the next because reuse wants to keep it very grounded. Yeah. So the I don't know how they're being able to do it, but the rumor is Batman Part two is going to take place during the winter. And so the antagonist with that in mind, could be mister for Easter. For Easter. God damn right it could be. Which would be great. Wow. Well, they bring him back on. I, I hope so. Well, I know that they do like some grounded version of Mr. Freeze I'd be in. I mean, I'm in your grandmas. Yeah. Yo. Yeah. Looks like Santa is Batman. Otherwise, I like people we know. Don't. Yes, yes. I thought he was fine, I liked him. I like the dark tone. It's not like I like it more than the Nolan movies are more than Keaton. Like, nothing like that. But I appreciated it. I thought it was extremely dark and grounded, for sure. That's good. Good recommendation. I do want to watch that show. All right, everyone, we did it. I was a little nervous about this part because it's such a big topic, and we don't usually cover TV on the pod here, but I had a lot of fun doing this with you. A lot of fun watching. Let us know what you think in Twin Peaks. Thank you for half of the Penguin. Oh, you're so welcome, man. You're just so welcome. Let us know at Wawa w underscore podcasts on Twitter x Instagram, Letterboxd. But as always, thanks for listening and happy watching you. Do you? Do. All right, you mad movie buffs, this is our, time in the podcast where it's that earlier where you said we had a special surprise. Yes. So, calling in right now is, one of my dearest friends, one of my fellow bastards in this life. Together, we have lived together. We have acted together. We have been through life's tumultuous ups and downs together. And I love this guy with all my heart. And so, I mean, I'm going to set him up real nice. Set him up. So. Born and raised in Brooklyn, New York, he is a supremely talented actor, martial artist and writer. Oh shit. He has appeared on multiple TV shows such as Dead Ringers on Showtime, Ramy on Hulu, Daredevil on Netflix, and The Blacklist redemption on ABC, to name a few. As a martial artist, his achievements include a second degree black belt in shot account karate, and a purple belt in Brazilian jiu jitsu. Holy shit, he has a comic book and it's awesome. It is the legend of the Night Owl from Legacy Comics. It has been featured at both the Buffalo Comic-Con and the New York Comic-Con, contributing to its rising influence in the indie comics world and no stranger to podcasts himself. He is also the host of the Artist Dojo podcast, but what brings him here to us today is he is a recent graduate, earning his MFA in screenwriting at the David Lynch Graduate School of Some of Cinematic Arts at Maharishi International University. Mad movie buffs. This is a fringe genre like, wow, Jesus Christ, it's like he's never been that activated on the podcast ever. First of all, what is their bio? I can do the martial arts shit. Oh my god, Nick. Nick is about to be my, my promo guy. From now on, Jesus is what I'm here for. Let's go pro wrestling. He's my pro wrestling manager. You know, when they have a personality that's not so, like, big, but maybe has some athletic talent, like, put him with the guy, give them a voice. Hey, here's my, He's my manager now. I've been told that I am the most athletic looking, unathletic person in the world, so. I mean, yeah, just give me that mic, baby. We're going, we're going. Well, thank you guys for, having me here. Definitely a fan of both of you. I feel like I'm in, great company of, like, cinematic knowledge, which I feel like I have very little of. That's not true. You are going to be. It's fine to be around, people. You know, I thrive on being the, least intelligent person in the room. And in this moment, you know, there actually is, like, I actually understand that, because sometimes when that is the case, though, that's not the case here. But sometimes when that is that, like, you just have nothing to do but learn. Yeah. It's the ultimate learning tree. Yeah. But I should also kind of quickly pose that this is the man that, turned my head around to American Psycho. Oh, I didn't know that. And told you it was a comedy. Yes. Yeah, because it is. Yep. Yeah. Okay, okay. He thought I was an insane person. Initially read that. He was like, oh, wow, I'm living with a legit insane person. I was like, no, no, it's it. It's a black comedy. It is. You see, this is like a fight. This is funny. Like the business card scene is one of my favorite comedy moments in all cinema. Lettering is something called Sicilian rail. Oh, God, what a film even has a watermark. Oh my God, Patrick, you're sweating. All right. Lynch, David Lynch. Yes. So I guess we'll just kind of start and. Yeah. And just kind of like, what did David Lynch mean to you before you entered into this program? And what did he mean? What does he mean to you now? So I have to be honest, before getting into this program, I didn't even realize he was one of those people that I have that, cultural significance to the point where you don't even know where the source of some of the things you say and do come from. Yeah. Because it's it's been handed down from different creators and came from different sources. So to be to be perfectly honest, I even told him there's I'll get to that story later. But I was like, I had no connection or previous understanding of his work. It just wasn't in my wheelhouse. And so what ends up happening is during during Covid, my ex, she introduced me to, Twin Peaks and she's like, hey, would you like to watch this? I think actually, I have a friend, Dan Bracey I know there. Oh. I just recorded a whole oh, I just recorded a whole ass Twin Peaks podcast with him. It was. It was fun, but, wow. It was it was something I it was something. Yeah. So he and he was actually the first person that said this would be right up your alley. And we started getting into it and I was like, oh, wow. Like it really, it really was. And then I started seeing ads for the screenwriting program as I'm watching him more and more like maybe two weeks later, I'm into season two and I'm thinking to myself as like, well, really, what's the worst that could happen? Let me, let me apply. I was accepted to the program, and then I started really getting more into, its films, his artwork, his music, and realizing how connected I felt to that idea. So I guess before there really was no there was no connection that I knew of. I just was like, oh, these games, this is maybe the source of where some of the it was like Geist around playing with time and playing with consciousness and characters communicating through consciousness and different, different times, type of characters, things like that. I was like, oh my gosh, like this is these are ideas that he was playing around with since Eraserhead. Yeah, yeah. And that's something I found out after the fact. Yeah, absolutely. And I think we kind of set that up on the Lynch pod because that that's, that's such a good answer, because it sounds like a friend was already aware of Lynchian type of filmmaking without being aware of David Lynch, but he was aware of these themes that he not like created, but definitely popularized in American content. So that's awesome. And I love that Twin Peaks was the gateway to Lynch, I love that, yeah. And so when you were there, what was that? That was like giving away like the sneak, the secrets? Well, like everything that's like the ingredients that go into the kitchen, but, like how how did that structure of that work for writing and, like, what did his influence kind of do for you? There's no secret, man. It's really it's his whole thing is meditate and create. Like, if you read, you know, catching the big fish. Yeah. It's just a matter of of creating time for yourself as an artist, creator, writer, whatever your creative expression is, allowing time for that to come and also allowing for what works best for you. So, for example, I know me, I if I go on a long walk, ideas just start to pop up in my head. It's it's pretty amazing. Like anything that engages my physical body or consciousness or like long drives really helped me to, like, I'll be on a long drive and all of a sudden these ideas will start coming up. I think because of consciously you're active in something that requires your full attention. I think that was the main thing is meditate and create. So whether it's an actual meditation of transcendental meditation, which, the David Lynch screenwriting program is essentially 50% Transcendental Meditation, and the other 50% is the art of screenwriting. Oh, wow. So you learn it. You learn it in the sense of format. And what is, considered common practices today. You also learn how to throw that all out and just do your own thing. So in an academic sense, you're learning the actual formatting and how it goes. But in the sense of freedom, those like you create whatever you want. You literally could do what you what you want. Yeah, I guess the most simple term is meditate and create. So whether that meditation, it happens to be transcendental meditation or just taking time to not be caught up in the noise of everything, allowing something to come out of that and then just creating. So and all of a sudden you're like, boom, this idea comes to you. You just have to have something there to be able to catch it. Because I don't know if you've ever had it, had an idea. And you're like, oh, that's perfect. I'll write it in the morning. Oh yeah, that's the worst. Oh my God, it's gone. Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And you fall into this idea that, oh, I do my best work under pressure or procrastinate until the last moment and then magically, it all comes together and it's like, well, yes and no. I think for me, unfortunately, it was just like, I have grown so used to chaos or having everything the last minute that it gave the illusion of authenticity. It gives the illusion of being in the moment. It gave me not only a structure, but a freedom within that structure because I don't feel confined. It gave me a framework to work within that I feel confident in now. Whereas before I was like, I don't know, I felt stressed or somehow I need to create and chaos. And it's like, no, if you meditate and like right after meditation, some of the the best, I won't say, but maybe the most fulfilling writing for myself came out of right out of meditation directly to the, final draft and just started writing, and I felt very satisfied. And sometimes you'd be surprised, like pages will fly right out of you when you're not, when you have a framework to do it. And I guess you hit me like, really hard of the core with some of that stuff that I feel like that you kind of gave me my, my, my Monday plan. Well, know the the comments about procrastination and the idea of you feel like you're really knocking shit out and getting shit done when you wait till the last day. That's so true. But I absolutely agree that's a false premise. It's like it would be so much more effective if you yeah, resisted that notion and put in the time every damn day to do it totally agree. Absolutely. What was the most valuable thing that you got from from David Lynch? Because I know, I know, it was mostly like you didn't meet him personally, but you were in his teachings. What was the most valuable thing you took from there? Well, he did speak to us, a number of times on, like a virtual zoom meeting. Oh, okay. On windows, as everyone knows now, he, is dealing with emphysema, so he's going to be kind of homebound. I think we didn't necessarily know, but we had an idea that maybe something like that was going on. So he would contact us and talk to us, and he spent time with each of us individually, which was really beautiful. And, I think one of the first things I asked him, did you ever read comics as a kid? Because I was just curious. I'm like, well, you know, like, where does some of that creativity come come from? And he said, no. And he was like, I was I was too busy playing in the mud. It made me think, I need more of that real life application of of fun and making, making a mess and not always trying to be so clean about the way that I want to like something can be refined and messy at the same time. Yeah it does. Yeah. So I think that just made me really piqued my interest in a way that made me think, okay, how can I do that? How can I have my head in the clouds a little bit or, or meditate and, and dip into this idea that consciousness is everything, but also, you know, play in the mud and make a mess and splash paint around and do like, you know, you can only come up with the character of Bob in Twin Peaks if you allow for the mistake to not be a mistake. Exactly. Yes, yes. Know so. And he talked to us about that a little bit. And he said it many times. You can find that story elsewhere. But yeah, Dan and I talked about it. Yeah. On the pod. It's a great story. Yeah. Yeah I love it. And also the fact that like, someone's like, oh no, we got to reshoot that because of XYZ. He's like no, no, no. And he allowed in the moment for the quote unquote mistake to now become one of the more iconic elements in that story and which expanded into so much and season two and three. So yeah, and Fire Walk with Me, which personally is my favorite and might not be the favorite of some, but for me, I absolutely love it. So that's your favorite David Lynch firewall because me at the moment. Yeah, that's what I think. It evolved. That's what it oh it absolutely always will. That's what Dan told me yesterday. He's like I believe a friend's favorite lynch is Fire walk with me. And I totally get that. I absolutely see it. I got I love that movie. I love it so much. I will explain it's a little too long to explain the story to you, but basically like they had this guy Frank, and he was, I don't know his exact role, but he was like a part of crew and they accidentally got him like in a shot. And it and then within like, I guess milliseconds, Lynch just decides, oh, that's going to be like the main villain of the show. Like, don't reshoot it. We're not going to remove him from the shot. And there was another shot where he was like accidentally in a mirror, just part of crew. And they made him, like the show's lead villain. Oh my. That went on through the return, which is like nuts. That's awesome. Yeah, yeah. Oh so cool, I love that. I mean, you talk about allowance right there. Exactly, exactly. Yeah. Oh, God. That's great. There's a there's one of my favorite. You have to look it up. But what he gets, I think it's around the return. They were talking to him about how they're only going to have maybe 1 or 2 days in a certain location. And very uncharacteristically, he gets pissed and he starts, like, kind of cursing. And, one of the things he's like, we never have any time to, to go to go dreaming. And that's kind of his thing is he wants time in the space. He doesn't want to feel rushed. He also, I think when I heard that, what it made me think was don't rush that creative process. Like sometimes you can't help it. Not not all of us are David Lynch. We're going to have a space, if we're lucky, for however much time we have it. But also, maybe you know the shot that you want, and then maybe you give yourself like ten, 15, 20 minutes to say, let's play around because you never know what will come out of that. And then all of a sudden that might be the thing that is the shot that's in the trailer or the thing that, brings it all together, you know? Absolutely. You really feel that in the return as well. Just feel like the letting it breathe a little bit, things can get a little zany, a little crazy. It's where, like the beauty of the show lies. I love it, I love that shit. Yeah. Don't limit yourself. Don't lie to yourself. Don't think that you're not capable. You know, I can't even tell you how much the Transcendental meditation has changed my life. Yeah, I know that about you. But learning the process of screenwriting and and respecting it has made my acting better. It has made my understanding of the arts better. And I think when you look at, like, David Lynch's stuff, I think when he doesn't explain anything. Right, you know, people say to him like, oh, did this and this mean this, like, like, you know, whatever you think. And then people are spending, you know, 18 hour YouTube videos playing, you know? So I think that's part of his legend too, is not having to explain it because he actually believes that all this stuff is coming from an infinite consciousness. And maybe he happens to be the vessel of whatever, you know, his experience is pushing that consciousness through. Oh, also, here's another little thing. Yeah, he told us, take 70 postcards, write ideas for a scene, and at the end of 70 index cards with ideas on them, you essentially have a film that's wild, so wild. And if you literally put those in the cards up on a wall, which I did during the course of my my studies, you're able to like, look at it and say, Holy cow, this is a movie. And now you start with postcard. You don't have to go in order. You could start. Yeah, there's card 25 and say, oh, you know what, I want to write a scene for that right now. And you write two pages. By the time you're done, it's going to create something that resembles a full story. Well, dude, you you, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for your inspiration. You are always and always have been one of the most inspirational people I know. I think this is such a cool thing to have on our podcast. Oh yeah! Thank you so much for all the gems that you the lessons you doled down from the mountaintops. But now here's a real here's one from the base of the mountain. Nick and I were roommates, a country feature where yes, yes there were. We were we were not trained well for life at that time. I'll just say that we had us. We had a stack of dishes. Look. Looked like a mountain of David Lynch VHS tapes. Yeah. Yes. Substances covered in God. No. Like it just started to basically it was the building blocks of life were creating themselves on these, these dishes. So we're trying to we're trying to prepare for like a house party. So Nick, for whatever reason, I can't remember if I was like a rock, paper, scissors or volunteered things like, I'll wash them. Yep. Perfect. Me and our other roommate are cleaning up a bit all the time. You hear the biggest thud in the kitchen. We go run back. He's passed out on the floor. Oh, shit. Looking like looking like Jeffries from fire. Walk with me. I can be like the long lost. I love Jeffries, okay? He just. He's just rambling, saying something like, dude, you okay? He passed out from the the noxious aroma of the dishes. Oh my God. Warning to you creatives and screenwriters out there. You also have to be able to like, do normal life things. Yes, yes. Just so you know, it all comes back. It will all come back together. It will come into your orbit. Yup. Or it will leave your orbit. So there you go. You will faint and you will survive and you will go back to work. I love it, I love it. You'll faint. You'll survive. You go back to work in an infinite cycle until the end of your mortality. Oh. This is great, I love that. All right, well, you. I love you, brother. I love you, man. I love you so much. Thank you. Awesome. Thank you so much for doing this. You are the man. Oh, yeah. This was great. It's great to meet you. Great to hear these stories. Thank you so much for your time I love this. Thank you guys. For. Hey everyone. Thanks again for listening. You can watch my films and read my movie blog at Alex withrow.com Nicholas Dose Dotcom is where you can find all of Nick's film work. Send us mailbag questions at What Are You Watching podcast at gmail.com or find us on Twitter, Instagram and Letterboxd at wri w underscore podcast. Wasn't a friend great. So cool to hear from someone who's actually taken the David Lynch courses and has done the thing done the TM. I love that. Next time, we're going to a hidden favorite, a deep cut gem, a movie that never gets discussed as much as it should. We are going to do a deep dive on Michael Mann's 1999 masterpiece, The Insider, starring Al Pacino and Russell Crowe. I love this movie and I am so excited to finally talk about it. The Insider. Stay tuned. For.