138: The Rules of Attraction (2002)

Nick and Alex review Roger Avary’s adaptation of Bret Easton Ellis’ “The Rules of Attraction.” Topics include the film’s stunt casting of former child stars, Ellis’ source novel, how they shot the Victor sequence, Shannyn Sossamon, and much more. Deal with it, rock ’n roll.
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Transcript

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Hey, everyone. Welcome to. What are you watching? I'm Alex Witt. Throw in. I'm joined by my best man, Nick, though. Still. How are you doing there? Victor Johnson? Victor, you're not going to give me Victor. You're not giving me any Victor. No way. You're Victor. You're Victor. Oh, man, I wish I had a good I had, I had I had some lines ready for it, but I Victor, I could I can't see, you know. You know what? Yeah. Bring that back. Change, bring that change that I, can't wait to talk about that scene, because that's a crazy scene. Oh my God. Oh, it's so good. Let's get into it. Yeah. How are you doing? I'm. I'm fucking excited, man. This is this is a cool one. This is one I think people are going to look at and be like, what the hell is this? I agree, I think so we, we did it. We did a little double feature for ourselves. I got to pick a personal one. Waves. And then you went with the Rules of Attraction because this movie is personal. What? Well, it's funny because you know what I realized when you picked when you asked to pick the personal one? Yes. And then you gave me, like, a solid list of movies that I wear. Absolutely personal to me. But I realized I chose the wrong one. I wasn't 100%. If we were really going on personal levels should not have chosen this one over another one and I was kicking myself the entire. Doesn't mean like personal, like emotional. Just one like you get to pick. Yeah. So it was I gave you a few rules of, like, it has to fit within this box. And I said it's a box. It's going to make sense months from now, but I promise it. Yes, yes, yes. But there would have been another box that would have made more sense. Which one would you picked? I'm just curious. Manchester. I was surprised you didn't go with that. I thought you were going to go with Manchester. I don't know what happened. It was. It was one of those things where I saw, like, the list and I was like, oh yeah, all of these would be good. And then I just. I was like, rules of attraction, let's go. But then I had already committed it. Yeah. And then but the entire time afterwards I was like, oh, you just did waves. We really of Manchester would have been a nice way to that would have been a good double feature in terms of like the weirdness of how we both are emotionally attached to those movies. We could, we'll definitely have to do Manchester at some point. A little too harsh for commentary, but we could do it. I mean, we're going to be in person soon enough. We could do it then, but we should definitely do a deep dive on it because that we have some insights into that movie that few people share. Dude, I think a commentary of the best you do, we're going to add some levity to that. Actually, it is always on Prime, right? Or is it maybe. All right, it's always on Prime a fucking Manchester by the sea commentary commentary. It would fit because we have the most ridiculous long movies for our commentaries. Yeah we do. I was actually going to say our next. Going forward, they all need to be under two hours. That was going to be like going forward because we always pick long fucking movies. It's like Jesus and someone tends to get a little drunk at the two hour mark. I've noticed Manchester is the next. All right. Well, today we're not talking about anything remotely that, sad, but certainly that nihilistic. Is this movie The Rules of Attraction, released in 2002, written and directed by Roger Avery, based on a 1987 book by Bret Easton Ellis. Who I have no problem saying has been my favorite author since I was in high school. I understand that he if you don't know much about him, but you know some shit, he said on Twitter. In the past where which was all just like comic trolling. He didn't. He wasn't like being serious about any of that, depending on how well you know him. I don't know what everyone's opinions of him are going to be, but I'm someone who I've listened to every episode of his podcast. I it's only on Patreon and I pay for it and listen to it. What he taught me through his writing was style and character over all this other stuff, because all my teachers in school were telling me like, oh, it has to be like expert prose and like, this is your dangling participle and all that, like what? I read him and it's like, if it works, it works. He's much more for style and character than even for story. And I never seen anyone like that. And it just, it blew my world wide open. So this is I'm really excited to talk about Brady Snow, us and Roger Avery and the rules of attraction today. The movie. Yes. 100%. And I think this movie is actually a great example of style and character because like, it really does. It's a it's I think it's a great depiction of the book. And but even going back further, I am just as big Brady Snow's fan. Oh, he was the first author. But I remember reading and being like, wait, you can do that? I have no idea. I just yeah, none. And actually, my what are you watching recommendation tonight is actually a book. Oh. Oh, I what what are you what are you reading? What are you reading? Yeah. But there's, So I'll, I'll cycle back to the example of why I'm bringing that up. Because there's a passage in there that I'll never forget. It's ingrained in me as, like, probably one of the singular most useful bits of writing I've ever seen, because it absolutely does nothing by the time that it's over. And but yet it means everything. I can't. I understand that he's a controversial figure in some regard, because he is very opinionated and boisterous in the best possible way. I think it's just one of those things where you just have to know who you're dealing with. That's it. You just know who you're dealing with. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He is not afraid to say exactly what he means. He's not afraid of hurting people's feelings. He's he's not malicious, but he just calls it like he sees it. Yeah. And in his style of writing, there is just a bleakness and cynicism that he has that I just love. I just vibe with it. Yeah, the cynicism is. And the sense of humor from that cynicism. Yeah. The absurdity doesn't mean he writes absurdist books, but just how people think other things are absurd. I yeah, latched on to that so. Well, especially I mean, and Rules of Attraction and everything and everything he's written, it's he I think he is by far and away my favorite author, definitely least contemporary. And so but we've never gotten a chance to talk about. Right, like Bret Easton Ellis, especially because he's never done a deep dive on one of his movies that, were based off of one of his books because, well, there aren't too many. No, there's not, and there's only like a handful of them that are good. Yeah. So there was less than zero first, which is that just has nothing to do with the book. Like it took some of the character names. It doesn't have a single line of dialog from the book. So if you're a fan of the book, it really doesn't have much to do it. And I can only watch it through that lens. American Psycho I'm trying to do them in the order that came out, American Psycho, which is one of your favorite films, and that, you know. Yeah. And books that made, Christian Bale a household name, that book. Like, I mean, there is such a huge difference from lesson Zero and Rules of Attraction like a good double feature in terms of books. And then there is just a huge level up to American Psycho. In terms of the level of detail, you're like, what the hell? I mean, it's really, really wild prose just to read it and to read it. What everyone's wearing at any given time, it's like, oh, it's genius. I love it. It's it's my favorite book. So then, so good. So then that comes out in 2000 is it's release in 2000. Roger Avery, who has an Academy Award for a story credit on Pulp Fiction, script. Tarantino wrote. But he contributed some story elements to it. So he does have an Oscar, and he has not made film in a while, so he wrote Rules of Attraction on spec. He didn't even write it, like for a fee. And then that made its way to Bret Easton Ellis. But Bret Easton Ellis read the script, and then when he saw the movie, he said and still says it is the best adaptation of one of his books. They got the tone. And really, I think he means like, the cynicism and nihilism. Yeah. Of his work better than any other movie has. Now. Does that mean Rules of Attraction is a better movie than American Psycho? No, not necessarily. Yeah, it just means the author thinks, you know, got the intention a little bit more. And then The Informers, which is an amazing collection of short stories by Ellis, is a terrible movie released in 2009. That it's just not good. Is that, is that Laurel Canyon? No, it's called the Stormers. Oh. Oh was actually called The Informers. Yeah, it's called The Informers. It's not good. No. The canyons was an original script that he wrote by Brett. Yeah, for Paul Schrader with Lindsay Lohan, porn star James Dean. Not like I find some interesting things in the movie. I don't think it's a terrible movie. It's not like a lot of people, it got written off right away. I don't think it got written. I think there's some interesting stuff. Yeah, I liked it, but that's that's his. In terms of adaptations, Rules of Attraction is I mean, it's very, very fun. But I can say as someone who's read all of his books and studied them, he's the only author I've read and reread and then reread like I've read all of his books at least three times. I do think this gets it. It really gets the that passing of the baton from one character to another, the voice over. And yeah, the cynicism even. It's a huge fuck you. The way the book ends and the way this movie ends, like literally the words that are said and just cut off. But it's great. It's great. And and it's, movie that was they did not know how to market this movie. Correct? I think back in 2002, they marketed this as like almost like high. High, exactly, exactly when they should have marketed as, American Psycho. That's all they needed to do. It was right there for them, but they didn't. They made it look like it was going to be some like, farce or something. It was it was really badly marketed, which is it's a bummer that Lionsgate did that. You're going to find out if you've come to looking for American Pie in the first three minutes that. Oh, well, we're we're going to get to it. Well, okay. When was the first time you read Rules of Attraction before you saw the movie or. No, I saw we first saw the movie. Yeah. I you know, it's funny is that I tend. And this is the same way that I found Hunter S Thompson to. I ended up connecting to Bret Easton Ellis voice as a writer through the movies before I read in. Yeah, same here. And but I, I think ultimately though, that's what I like about this movie and American Psycho is that it's connecting you to that author, to that writer, to his voice, his mind. And when you find someone that expresses themself artfully in such a unique way that you just vibe with, you can't unhear that voice. You can't. You can. You also can't stop wanting more of it. Yeah, I think I saw well no I definitely saw American Psycho first because I didn't like it. That's right, that's right. Yeah I see I saw that in the theater and it was like thrilled and. Yeah. And so it took me so that you're talking 2006 since I came round to American Psycho, but I saw Rules of Attraction definitely while I was still in high school. And I loved it. I was just sort of like, what is this? Did you see it in the theater? No. Back to the American Pie thing. I was there, I was in theater in October 2002. I had, you know, gotten my license recently. So I was like, going to movies on my own, and. Wow. Yeah, it was, I was expecting because there's one little, like, tagline on the poster in the marketing, from the warped minds of the crooked minds that brought you Pulp Fiction and American Psycho. And I'm thinking, I don't think this is going to be the American Pie thing, that it's being marketed as, but I was in the theater with a lot of, dudes who were laughing in their mortified girlfriends who were just dead silent next to them, especially in those first ten minutes. You're like, oh, wow, here we go. But yeah, I think, I think it's a in in terms of a reflection of Brady Ellis's writing, I think it does it extremely well. I also think it's a really good 2000 movie because his book is set in the 80s. They wisely didn't keep it up in the 80s. So it plays well as a really it's just a really good college movie. It's very nihilistic, yes, but I think it has a life now that when people discover it, they're like, what the hell is this little thing like, this is crazy because in the moment, part of the thrill of seeing it in the moment was you were like, that's the kid from Dawson's Creek. Yes, that's the girl from seventh Heaven. That's the boy from the Wonder Years. What the fuck is going on? So it was it was wild. That just kept happening. It was a thing where. Because I remember the reason that I ended up renting it was because I was Dawson's Creek. Kid. You're creek head. I was a creek at big time, and I had I was a kid. So like, I kind of grew up watching essentially like 90% of this cast was right. Exactly. But at you're right, though, because at the time it wasn't necessarily a joke, but there was this weird stigma that, oh, I'm going to go and watch this movie where the WB kids are trying to be adults. Yeah, yeah. Now when you actually go and watch this, all of that's erased you. Exactly. You do not see that element to it whatsoever. Most people probably don't even know who James Vanderbeek is. Unfortunately. What I'm saying if you're saying. Yeah, and and Jessica Biel, you know, it. It's it's just not there. But even in their performances, I did not once feel like I was watching an actor trying to force an idea that, oh, I'm no longer this I'm no longer that. I saw actors doing really cool things with really cool writing in a really cool, directed way. Yeah, it's held up very well in the movie. I think it gets up more now than it did when it came out. Yeah, I agree, I think it would get a different, I don't know, you know, would it be made today? Probably not, but it would probably get a different reaction. Keep in mind this is only a $4 million movie. This is like a very barebones like they were going on, it was tough. It was a tough film to make. I've listened to a lot of podcasts with Roger Avery. He's been on Brittany Snow's, his podcast. Those are great, great listens. Roger Avery also has a podcast. It's not up right now because I guess they're busy. Video archives with. Oh, no. So. And that one's great. They talked about some really outer movies, but you'll get insight into how they made their stuff. And yeah, this is he was never going to get the budget that Tarantino could get for his movies like that. He got for, you know, kill Bill or thereafter. But that's where we're meeting them because they both worked in a video store together, video archives in Manhattan Beach, and they become known as like, the video guys. Roger Avery hired Tarantino to the video store. So they're working on stories. Pulp fiction gets made. But before that, Tarantino makes Reservoir Dogs. Avery makes killing Zoe in 1993, and then they win an Oscar for Pulp Fiction. But then there's The Rules of Attraction, a script he has written, and he really thinks he has a handle on. He convinces pretty snails to do it. And I mean, the result is like, it's something that to me in the moment. It did feel a little fun watching it in 2002 because you're like, wow, look at Dawson. Like that show was still on, like it was it was wild. Did all these, like, even Chan saw? And the only thing we've seen her in, she's not doing stuff like this. She was like the love interest in A Knight's Tale or like, you know, 40 days and 40 nights, stuff like that, seeing it and be going, oh, look at them, look at them and being and just being stunned at some of the content. But then, yes, watching it, watch it three, twice to prepare for this episode, I'm like, this still really holds up like it's fun, it's morbid, very cynical. And there are parts that are genuinely funny, genuinely disturbing. It just gets all the beats, right. It's a crazy college movie that is not afraid to go there. Yeah, it doesn't give a fuck and it'll go there. I, I often wonder, like upon rewatch of this, I had, I wondered about what younger people would think of this movie because I don't know if younger people really have this sense of this, this nihilistic version of whatever humor could be, because like, to me, this scene, this is going to sound terrible is I just say this out loud, but this scene where he tries to kill himself, I think is hilarious. It's meant to be hilarious. That's what it's meant to. Yeah, yeah, it's because it's pathetic. Exactly. And it's for, like, for such a stupid reason. Right. And but yet he takes it so seriously, and then when he fakes it because he doesn't know if she's going to walk in there, like, right. He's just, he's just like, like this kind of sad, pathetic guy who just doesn't know what to do with him. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Love. He wakes up and he's just pissed himself like he chased, taking all these pills. He's like, tried to cut his wrists with the fucking, like, BIC razor. Yeah, it's. Look, I take suicide very seriously. This is just some pathetic guy who. Yeah. Doesn't know, like, what to do with his time. I love that description. It's so funny. It's this wakes up covered in piss, and he's, like, typical. Yeah. Typical. Yeah. So I mean, but there's just something that you just sort of kind and there's times to laugh in here. And then there's times where it's not. But those times that you're not are actually very, very clear. And that's indicative of what Brett does in his book too. Like where you find humor, you can choose to find it. But when there is no humor to be found, it's because there isn't any. And yeah, that's that's the beauty of Brett's writing, is that it can balance those things. And, and, and he does it very profoundly. Like the style of this movie is so funny because even in the like, these opening segments, you're getting to know these three main character well, my skipping around too much. No no no, we're we're we're breaking this up by party. So we're, we start at the end of the world party, which is where the film will also end was a circular narrative. The only the only thing I was going to start with was actually the characters. We have three main characters. Yeah, okay, we'll get to it that are going to be cycled through throughout the movie. We have James Vanderbeek as Sean Bateman, that is the younger brother of Patrick Bateman in the Bret Easton Ellis canon. He, Patrick Bateman, makes his first appearance in The Rules of Attraction. He's in that before American Psycho came out. You have Shannon Sussman, who I was in love with in 2002 as Lauren Hyde, Lauren Henn, I mean a music video with that same title. In fact, you did. And then we have Ian, Ian Somerhalder as Paul Denton. Those are the three that we're going to keep coming back to. I have no relationship with Ian Somerhalder in 2002. He's gone on in like, you know, Vampire Diaries and yeah, stuff. So he's had lots. Oh yeah. He was he was. That's right. So those are our three characters. How they are intertwined into a the loosest of love triangles, because so few of them don't even want to be involved in it. But you're meeting, and the movie's just going to be about us. Basically a semester at the fictional tandem Camden College and their times together. That's basically it. I split this outline up. The movie is a series of it's not just a series of parties, but there are some like connecting scenes. But essentially the only time we get title cards are for the party. So yeah, we're just dropped right into the to this end of the world party and the thing that struck me most right away is the voiceover and the use of voiceover. So we're going to skip around each character that I just mentioned. It's going to have the first voiceover track, and I did not start reading it until 2004, which is when 2003, which is when I attempted American Psycho. But what made me really want to read his work was the switching in voiceover from first person to third person in this movie. Oh, when Sean, when Sean is like he was, you know, semi stiff and losing his erection. You know, this isn't, this is a taboo movie, people. This is not a politically correct movie. So he may be saying some things that sound a little out of turn, but in context for the film, that's this all we're doing? We're just quoting characters. But when he switches to he and he can't remember the last time he had sex sober, I was like, wait a minute. And Alice does that in a book. And I had never read that. Like switching from I love that. So yeah, that's the set up for the movie. Roger Avery, I already said, wrote a spec script, thinks he has a handle on it. They get $4 million. It's a go movie. They're making it into the world party. It's nuts because we meet these three characters and he's showing us how we're going to be reversing time. It's just while there's so many technical things going on that are nuts here, and it's ultimately what it is, is that it's cool. It's, yeah, it's a very, very cool way to kind of stylistically enter a movie because this time change that. We see, it happens all throughout it. But because you establish it's so quickly you're, you're sort of like oh okay. All right. I kind of dig that if you're, if you're okay with the content or the content is doing something that where you're not walking out of the theater already, then you've already know what this movie is going to be, it's going to go there, but it's going to also do some cool stylistic things that make it feel fresh and alive. And I think that's just a great way to tackle Brett's writing. Like even in, like for people who've never read Rules of Attraction, the way that it will go is that it will start out. Lauren in bold and then immediately just start. He'll start writing Lauren's story. First person. Yeah, it's first person, right? Not even chapters. But like the next paragraph will be Paul, and the whole book just plays like this by doing these cool reversal of times, it's also a way structurally of feeding. How do I make this a cinematic narrative? And because now you've you've given yourself the, device of breaking up time, which can only really serve you so that way, if you just made this a linear thing like that, it would it would probably come off a little jarring and a little what? Why are we. This was a nice way to be able to jump. And it read and the pieces like the book. Yeah. And one thing you get from the book is how quickly is how unreliable all over narrators are, because you'll see them. You'll read them, describe the same event. And based on whoever's perspective it is, it's wildly different. And that's even goes back to this first scene, like when she walks away with the guy, when Chantelle Simon walks away with the guy in like holding his hands. And then we see Shaun see that it just it all has different meanings for everyone involved. And yeah, like, well, the first 15 minutes of this movie are really the only time it really acts like you're just reading from the novel. Yeah, because it's going it's reversing back and it's really like it doesn't do this throughout the entire film. It'll just go and have little like, flashes of it. But yeah, when you like when the first, when the most difficult scene in your movie is in minute five, if you can withstand that, you'll be good to the end. But it is. It's a bit to withstand, because shortly after we meet Lauren Shannon, Osment's character, it just cuts to her being raped in a in a rape scene in a room. And then we were listening to her voice over, and it's so detached and just so, like, apathetic and I mean, again, we're not going to use necessarily pleasant words, but we zoom in on it because her, we fade up and she was drunk and we don't really know what's going on. So we can just see her. And she says, by the time I came to, he was already fucking me. And you're like, whoa. And she's not like delivering this wherever she's delivering this voiceover, it's not from a place of like, regret or hurt or sadness. It's it's just this is a thing that happened in college. This sucks because also the guy who's doing this didn't know I was a virgin, but I am. So now we're getting that we're like Jesus Christ. And yeah, very difficult to watch. But then he has like these little cinematic flourishes in it, like you're you're ruining my life. And then as soon as it ends, we literally reverse and watch this keg that was just rolling down the hallway. Roll in reverse back the whole way. The the, you know, cooler freezes back up with ice. So like you're saying, it's setting this tone right away, but going, just trust me. You know, I know some shit I'm going to show you is a little wild, but I, I'm going to have a point to everything that I'm doing. And it does. Yeah. And and it was such a, I mean, all the voiceovers are done so well. I think it's impossible to do a good Bret Easton Ellis adaptation if you don't have voiceover it just right. It almost just needs to be there. Yeah. Even in American Psycho it's disconnected there. There's a disassociation between the events that are happening and the way that the characters are talking about it, because it's more like when Sean's voiceover, he's the funny one. Yeah, yeah, because of what he's actually thinking in his inner monologue as opposed to what's happening. He's such an asshole, but it's almost like it's funny where Lawrence is not funny. But no, you were also because of the way she's delivering it. We we all of a sudden we just understand. We just like, oh, this is cynical. Yeah. As awful as this event is, it's not being treated in the way that it is that awful. Yeah. I mean it's it's a tough balance right away. The book is tough and the movie is an honest adaptation of it. That's all you can really say. Yeah. To me, when he, you go from that, that scene to it reversing and everything, the reversing is him kind of saying, you know, don't don't take all this seriously. It is heightened debauchery for, for a point. So and I agree with that wholeheartedly. But that's, that's how Lawrence Night is ending. At this one party, Paul's night, we get to meet him. His ending, he gets, goes up to a room with a guy, hits on the guy, the guy kicks him out, says a lot of homophobic stuff. And then Paul's voiceover tells us that within a year and a half, he's, you know, gay, that man, and is now spreading rumors that Paul could get it up. And he's just like, oh, funny how time get, what time does the things. And it's all this very like, all right. Yeah, I'll take a beating now, but watch what's going to happen in a year and a half. It's all from like very down here. Like whatever man. Paul I appreciated Paul in a way in this, this time watching it than I ever did before. So he was always my least favorite. And I like him more now. Yeah. I've gotten older. Yeah. It's just you just can't help but feel bad for this guy because this guy just. He just can't catch a break. Never. Yeah. He's just like this guy who's just like, is anyone here gay? Yeah. Can someone please, like. And then we meet Charlotte, who we've seen in the background, James Vanderbeek Dawson himself, slugging from a bottle of Jack Daniels. And we don't know how these people are connected. We don't know what the deal is. He goes and meets a lady played by Kate Bosworth, who? Which is kind of funny because she was marketed so heavily for being in the scene. Yeah, yeah, you're only seen and then this is the playfulness that you're talking about. Like the funny stuff. He's like, here are my options one. Leave. Go back to my room, play the guitar, masturbate to broadband speed, internet porn. Go to sleep two, play quarters three. Take her to a diner and ditch her with the bill for. Take her back to my room and rock and roll. And we get to see all these things play out. And you're like. And the movie doesn't keep doing this. That's what smart like it? Yeah, it does that little, you know, like what could happen thing aren't my options. It does that once it like utilizes split screen once but does it in a really, really cool way and has long tracking shots but not a bunch of them, just like 1 or 2. I love that it keeps doing the stuff. The editing is very like sharp press. You're going, you're going. It's very good. The ideas are there to kind of just keep everything fresh and interesting. I also had this idea too, with like the reversal. It also kind of inspired this idea that nothing matters. That's what I mean. Yeah. And yeah, and that everything just is what it is. And that's almost to the point of all of the characters in their sad, downtrodden ways. Is that that that's what it is. But because of the time reversing, it's just sort of like this weird idea that it's sort of like, oh, even Laura said, this is how it was going to be anyways. Yeah, just just really cool. And then when we get to, oh man, I will never forget this in the theater, because the first time I saw this was with my best friend Chris and a lady he was seeing, and three of us just like went together. And as soon as that screen went to freeze frame on James space and you hear her saying, Peter, Peter. And it fades up that his name is Sean, like every guy in the theater started laughing and oh, woman. And there was laugh and let me tell you. And I went, oh boy, this is going to be I don't think these poor women knew what they were dragged into here, but I yeah, yeah, it's it's really something. And that is like as cynical as it gets right there. That's Peter the freshman. Yeah Peter Peter the freshman. Oh my god Sean fucking Bateman then. Yeah. Then we where it's our opening credits which are all done in reverse. Just kind of an awesome song by The Cure. The soundtrack to this movie is actually a really cool throwback to 80s songs. So there's actually like, a lot of stuff that kind of gets thrown back to the time of the book. Which is pretty awesome. Yeah, they do that smartly without setting it in 87, because that would have been too expensive because there's so many songs that just fit, like that opening song by The Cure. It fits exactly the vibe that you want to be feeling. Like that tone matches. And, and then we, we get to meet, our boy, which won. Clifton Clifton, Clifton Collins, Clifton Collins, junior, baby. Funny. He was in both of our, personal picks. Yep. For this recording session. Yeah. The as it's. Good morning, Camden. The one thing we got to touch on and kind of put a little pin in is that Sean is receiving letters from an admirer who he assumes is Lauren, but just put a pin in that, because that's going to come up later. But, yeah, he goes to, to his drug dealer's house. And I just love this. Like he owes his drug dealer a bunch of money. Drug dealer, Clifton College junior. You want some coke? Sure. Well, then buy some. Your old bitch. I love that. You know, I was listening to the DVD is, the commentaries are really something else. Because there's, like, five of them. There's actually six, and five of them are like revolving doors. So there'll be actors here, and they're like. And then they'll go away and then they'll come back. One is just a cinematographer, one is just the editor, one is just, I'll save who one is because it's very special, but I'll save that for the end. And it's the A track you want to avoid because it has no significance to anything. Anyway. In his portion of the track, Clifton Collins junior said he and Avery agree that he was channeling Samuel L Jackson here because, you know, Avery worked with him on Pulp Fiction. Clifton Collins Jr was in a fucking hell of a movie called 187 with Samuel Jackson. It was Jackson's first starring role. It was the movie that Kevin Reynolds directed after Waterworld 1997 movie. It's a nasty little movie and he plays like a gang banger, College junior does. Then he was in traffic, which I love. He's an assassin at traffic. But yeah, he's great in here. He's just nuts. He's like going fucking crazy doing fist push ups. Yep. After doing well, how is that an effective workout routine? Nick, can you tell me fist push ups after doing lots of drugs? I mean, not that I could explode his heart. You know what? Don't knock it till you tried it. Yeah, okay. Give it up. That extra energy. I love all the karate stuff, but, yeah, he's great. He's greatness. And I love the the head on shots like there. Yeah. There's very few movies looking directly into camera. Yeah. Yeah. That pulled this off and I think this is a great example of a movie that actually does because you, you just can't help but feel a little weird when you're looking at a shot this way. Yeah. So when it's just set up and he's doing this weird karate stuff to him as he's just coming towards us as the camera is still and you're just watching this, this lunatic just watching and it comes at you and then the camera does a great, like, like flip with the arm. And now we're kind of back into, like, a normal kind of state, but it's just, it's just, again, like the stylistic choices for this movie that are just really kind of here to seem like to have fun. Yeah. There's actually, Roger Avery said his visual inspiration for this was it's in a world of disconnection. I want to visually illustrate connection. Oh, nice, I like that. Do you know who his main inspiration was for the cinematography of this cinematography? No, but I thought, Salvador Dali. Well, those those are in there. But he said his main one was Douglas Sirk, this cinematographer. But but director. Oh that's interesting. That's interesting. Yep. He's like by putting people in like in like different like frames or different situations to kind of show how they're disconnected. He, he, he said that was his biggest directorial inspiration. Roger Avery is saying keep in mind, like as many movies as Tarantino, I listen to a podcast with this guy. It's their knowledge, especially when you hear them together, is insane. Their level of knowledge. So yeah, Avery's very well versed in cinema for sure. I mean, you can tell that. And again, we're going back to like using these cinema tricks. This is the only time he has someone like looking at the camera. You know, it's not something that is going on like over and over. He's utilizing it once and that makes it more effective. And yeah, I love that that he's just puts him in that fucking arm hold. Well he's even doing that thing where he's like like like clips in contrast, is like eyeballing like the camera as he's trying to get this information, like, are you lying or are you lying? And then it just cuts to a gun in his face. You'll be a good money motherfucker. So good. While we're in between parties here, we're just, like, kind of bouncing around to stuff. But, man, let me tell you, after Rupert, we just cut to a dorm room. And this is probably the biggest subversion the film does because it's subverting our expectations of, like, what Dawson could do, what all these, you know, kid actors could do. This is the biggest stunt casting. Because seeing Kevin Arnold from the Wonder Years just like crazy shooting heroin induced toes, was really something else. Yeah, I was looking at it like, oh my God, that was actually the scene. The first time I saw where I went. I really get what he's doing here. And that scene has nothing to do with anything. We're never going to see Mark again. It's just we just get to see Bateman trying to get some money. Sean, that is trying to get some money from you. Only 500 bucks. But I went, okay, I really get what this is. We're just going to be meeting people and we're going to. We could have some sort of stunt casting where you're just going to go, what the fuck? Like it was wild. It's so wild. What a scene. No joke. That's one of. I can't believe this is a sentence. I'm going to say. It's one of my favorite depictions of heroin. Okay? I mean, he's really out of it. He's so out of it. But because it's not, it's not drawing attention to itself. Like just his, like how out of it is and what he's talking about. Yeah. It's like it's like, actually I can feel my dick. I can feel my dick. And he's like, he's like, you want some, money? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Just go. Just don't ruin it, man. Just don't just don't don't mess with my. And it's just been very kind of, like, subdued. But you're just like. Like by the time that that scene's over and vanderbeek, like, throws the pillow down in frustration. Like, you get it? Like this guy is out to lunch. Yeah. I love the recurring, motif of Sean taking books or CDs from people. Just people sleeping. Yeah, it's it's the movie's version of. I have to return some videotapes. It's that think that's what I think of when I see it. That's funny. I like that the edge of the world party is next to the bonfire. This one's mostly about. You know, this is one thing I love about this movie, because this party is mostly about Paul, where, you know, he's flirting with a guy and. And that guy's girlfriend, both of them at the same time. But what this movie gets so right is that one cut, one character can be at a party, and then there's another character they going to show up at any time. So like Sean walking into frame here, that's just college. Like one character can leave, one can show up and it passes. It does those narrative pass offs so well to where it's never noticeable. It's not like we're going through throughout the movie like Elise does in the book, saying, you know, Sean Paul, Lauren. It's not. Yeah. It just does that once and that's enough. It just flows too. Yep. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely just flows. This is one of my favorite exchanges in the movie. When Paul is there's this constant miscommunication between he and Sean. Sean can never remember who he is which is yeah I know. So Bret Easton Ellis that's an American Psycho too. But he has no fucking clue he is. And he's like, hey, you know, ask it if he wants to go to, you know, Mexican restaurant. And Paul's like, are you sure? Because all by like all this stuff that Sean does looks around, he's like, I don't know, you're by. And the way that Paul responds with totally by, there's so much in that by it's not by, it's by I believe. And it's their relationship and Paul's obsession with him, which is so unfounded. That's one of the joys of that book, is that you really don't know. In the book you're like, wait, because Paul says that you're like, hook up and you're like, wait, do. This does not seem like Sean. And then you'll get to Sean's part. And Sean doesn't even know who the fuck he is. So that's what you with the unreliable narrators. And it's just so hysterical that Paul's always like a step off it. And that's. And that's why we actually get a split screen in that way, because we see that split screen in their room of one version of the truth is that Paul just kind of played her. So you could say, like in on the left side of the screen, they're making out, that didn't happen. There's no way that happened. And then on the right side of the screen, he's jerking off with Sean in the room. And so I'm like, does one of those happen? I have Sean scenes undisturbed. Well, because. Well, no, because it cuts. It cuts to hear him asleep. But yeah. So that might wake you up, but I don't know. I mean, who knows? But yeah, because it doesn't clarify. I mean obviously I don't think that they made out because. Right. Sean wouldn't do that. But if you're Paul like either one of those could potentially be true. Exactly. It's probably more the one that he wants to be true. And or he at least feels that level of attachment to it because like the next morning, you know, he thinks that they're like basically in a relationship. Yeah. And, you know, it's like going to give you a ride to the bus tomorrow. And then Sean's just sort of like, what the. Yeah, whatever. It's like, I feel like you're going to hook up with girls at the party. And he's like, All right. Whatever. I mean, there's they wake up and they're like, watching porn together, and it's so like Paul's being all, like, needy and stuff. When he leaves, he calls him Sean's like, fuck this. Yeah. Who the fuck is this? He never thinks it's Patrick. That's the closest the movie gets to hinting at Patrick Bateman. But, there's a deleted scene. Have you ever seen. Well. Oh, with Casper Van Dean, of course. Yes. Because. Dean. Yeah, it's two it's too distracting because it's almost every dude who showed up to that movie theater was in love with American Psycho. The movie that's why you showed up to the theater? Because you would. Whether they saw American Psycho in the theater, I don't know it. That movie was a wild fire on DVD and home video. Every guy had it and watch it all the time. It just what it did. The lead scene is kind of fun, but it just would have been distracting. You would have been like, that's like, yeah, well, come on, that's troopers like let. Yeah. And it actually just doesn't fit. It was it was a great call to cut it. It was a good decision to try it. And ultimately I think yeah I think it would have because it's such a weird departure but not one that works. Right. Exactly. It's exactly it's not like the it's not like the Viktor montage where like all of that, like plays. So. Well, this one on one card, it's just too out of place. It's if you could get bail, maybe, but it's still maybe is out of place, like, I don't. I don't know some of the there scenes. The other rules of Attraction are hilarious though in the book. Oh yeah. Really funny. And just meeting and then Sean, it's funny in American Psycho how obviously if you've seen American Psycho The Movie, there's an ongoing bet that Dorsey is the best restaurant and they cannot get into it. That exists in the book as well. And what's hysterical is it Sean, like, knows the maitre d. It just gets them in there like, no problem at all. It's fucking hilarious the way that whole scene plays out. And Sean's like chain smoking at the dinner and it's that's one of my favorite parts of the American Psycho book that the brother, the younger brother, can just waltz on into Dorsey and no problem. Oh, God, I love this world. We are. We do get a little ahead of ourselves, because the first split screen is the one of Lauren and Sean waking up. They're both going to class on Saturday. The really cool thing when it like, you know, flips around and merges into one shot. I really like that. I should say this was the first studio film to be edited on Final Cut Pro. It's a really, really big deal. And Avery and his editor did it themselves, just digitally all right on it. And they utilize some of these. I think that's why there's some, like, zany ass effects in it, because it's so easy to do in Final Cut, just with a few clicks. Stuff is a little harder to do on film, that's all. Fun fact about your boy is that, in my junior year of high school, I took a film class. It was like one of those, like, quarterly ones where it doesn't last for very long. And we had to bring in a scene and deconstruct it for the class. Yeah, I use this scene. Which one? The split screen. There's the splits. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So you deconstructed it. So what did you tell us about you did this with another things. You talked about this on the podcast. You did. This was something else with another scene. There might have been I remember you telling me, was it a Fincher thing? I don't know, I thought, oh, yes, it was Fincher. Yeah. It was the same class. Same class. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Okay. The gluttony scene. Yes, I remember okay, I remember okay, cool, cool. But this was the very first one. Okay. I think I just chose it because it was cool. But it was I remember the things that I was talking about. It were actually pretty on the nose because I was like, she's already there and he's waking up super late and you're just kind of showing how this is in real time, like the difference between the two people, but how they interact and then how basically like the reason to do this was because we need to these two characters to the idea that they fall in love is as much as Bret Easton Ellis is willing to let two characters of his show. Sure. Because this is about it's about his. He does not like sentiment at all. The crowd goes mild, and and but in order for the movie, like, you need to buy that. Yeah. And by doing in this way, you really do, because you're kind of just captivated. But the performance is are really great by the two of them, even though they're both stoned, which is hilarious. Well, yeah, he he wakes and bakes and then she sneaks into Eric Stoltz, who I love is is at every party. It's like, oh, it's in the background, dude. Hitting guys heads. I had those teachers. There were teachers. Oh yeah. Oh, that was just like, oh, you're just that teacher that's just trying to hook up with the students. Yeah, but it was, you know, back then it was normal in the 80s, it was more normalized. Yeah. I mean, sure, he's just he's that teacher. Don't mind if I do. We're good. Yeah. No. It's great. Yeah. They're both stoned and it's just a good it's really honest portrayal of two people. Like getting ready for their day. Some of what they're doing. Like. Yeah. You know, he's whether they're brushing their teeth, using the bathroom, whatever it is. Yeah. That's so cool that you chose this to break down, though I think I'd always just I've always gravitated towards that idea of I like to see what characters do as, like their routine of getting ready and like what that means. I don't know why I've just and especially put on film. I find it to be very interesting and this is a very loose one. But I mean, essentially that is what we're doing is like, oh, we're just ultimately this is what the morning is for these two. But then once they find each other, it's just rock and roll. And he's really charming there to like that's like the most like charming is in the movie. I love that he's throws this book behind him. Saturdays suck just like Saturdays. So typical. Yeah. And her and her laugh in that scene. Yeah. She is. It's just such a great, like, like, uninhibited laugh. Yeah. No, she did not have a good time making that scene. That was obviously, as you can imagine, a very technically hard scene to be able to pull off. And it was one of those things where you just you, you had to be walking the exact right speed. You had to land on your mark in the exact same spot, and you needed to not screw up your dialog because it was this is an immediate reset. She yeah, she talked about that. And and she was just sort of like it wasn't fun. Like she put a lot of pressure on herself and and I, I'm assuming like I get it like when you're in a situation where that's that technical heavy, your job as an actor is no longer just to do the best scene you can do. It becomes sort of like the I am alive thing, where it was like in, in, you know, with the camera zooming in. Yeah, it's it's sort of like, all right, we're in a very unnatural situation right here with the camera because she's like, I'm seeing myself in the lens, right? And and I would see myself in the lens when we were doing it too. But, you know, you just have to kind of like, I don't know, you just kind of have to do whatever you have to do to, like, make sure that you're just technically hitting it. But because there's nothing natural. So you kind of have to accept that it throws out the window exactly like you're like, all right, I can see how there would be actors that would get really overwhelmed by that, as opposed to just being like, all right, what needs to be done? We just kind of get to do that. All right, I get that this is not a scene about me because I think and I'm not saying she felt that way, but I think a lot of actors would look at that is like, how am I supposed to do this when it can just be as simple as kind of just do this? Yeah. And she was I mean, a much she's great actor. Yeah. She's great. And she just hadn't been as much as think about being on TV, which Jessica Biel and James Vanderbeek were at the time. You have to hit marks like there, so you just have to more technically trained in that regard. So yeah, I, I've heard her talk about that. She's been on Bret Easton Ellis podcast train. It's awesome. But I mean, so I've heard and I've heard Avery talk about it the whole movie. I mean, so that's yeah, that's really interesting. And you can she pulls off, she uses the, the greenness of her as a performer all to benefit Lauren. Like it all really, really plays. I think it's a great performance. We believe at the end of it that these two, for as much as they can do, kind of fall in love. Yeah. Or at least in lust, that the connection is made. Right? Because the rest of the whole plot of the movie rests on this idea that there's love between them, even though it's like, oh, we met in a hallway and she took my glasses. And then he just assumes that it's her who's been writing him the letters exactly right away. That's what he assumes. Yeah, none of this is based in reality. No. Like no. Which is a point to almost all the Bret Easton Ellis is writing. Yes. Exactly. That. That's the absurdity of it. It doesn't mean it's absurdist, but it's just like this conversation means nothing. I mean, that's Patrick Bateman is telling us stuff like that. Oh, this confession is meant nothing like all of the time. Yeah. But yeah, yeah, they they do the funny freshman overdose scene where Jay Baruchel. Oh yeah. Would you say it. Yeah. He gets has an overdose. The funniest thing is that doctor is I mean that's Paul Williams. He's a legendary pop culture icon for music and acting. He had a starring role in Brian De Palma's Phantom of the Paradise, which is just a an iconic performance. But it's so funny to watch this, this lunatic doctor, like, what is he? What is his deal? Who even knows? It's just funny, I, I love this scene because I think this is just a very like it's hilarious just to see the absurdity of a guy who's really got nothing wrong with him at all. Nothing at all. And everyone is flipping out and Paul just being like, he's fine. He's clearly breathing. He's like, you guys are. I mean, it's hilarious. It's fun. It's just this little funny little bit in the movie that, yeah, lends itself perfectly to the absurdity of everything that we're talking about and everything that the movie and book represent. Yeah. And then we move straight to a pre Saturday night party. Party. And this is the one. Oh my God, I love this because Paul finds Sean and apologizes for apologizes for missing the date that they had set at the restaurant because he had to help some freshman. And the fuck are you talking about? Yeah, he has no idea. Like that. The night before they talked about this thing, it's just hysterical to me. And this is actually, we got a little ahead of ourselves. But yeah, this is where they go back to Paul's room and Jessica Biel clocks that. But then Lauren actually shows up because Lauren is a virgin at this point in the movie and not a partier. She has that venereal disease book that she flips through, which is gross, and she shows up and she's like, I'm kind of, I'm kind of ready where Sean Bateman went off with Paul, and I love that reaction where she's like, you don't think no. Like he's not Bateman. Yeah, he's he's fine, he's fine. But it's not like yeah, yeah, he's buying some from it's fine, it's fine. Well, yeah I mean we talked about the Paul Sean scene. That drop off at the bus station is also one of my favorite lines because oh that's so of love with him. And it's for I love you show and then we cut to Sean and he's just thinking about like, Lord day I'm hungry. Oh there's there's the the line is he goes in his monologue as Paul is being like, I love you. Sean Bateman cuts to Sean. He's like, I could I could bang her roommate and feel good about it. But then maybe it's about what Lauren thinks. Holy shit, is that really what I want? I'm hungry. Yeah, exactly. That's what's so funny. This doesn't mean anything. Oh, my God. There's also a great line. This is just a tribute to Bret Easton. Ellis is writing where he's like, I won't go to bed for the girl who doesn't come. That's like asking questions in a letter. It's fucking asking. That's like asking question to the letter. Like was one of the funniest things I ever heard. And it it was so just spot on. It was lines like that, I would I wonder if that's in the book and it is and it's just oh yeah. Oh my God. It's like asking question. You know what? God, what a fucking line she is. Oh yeah. It's hilarious. And then we get two Texans, male and the latest purple envelope just says tonight, tonight over night, tonight, tonight. Tonight's night. So he's going to get to meet his secret admirer, who he pretty much knows is Lauren gets the letter. We get Lauren and Laura. We should mention that Lauren's roommate is Laura, played by Jessica Biel, who seems to be a little more a little permissive was is the vibe we're getting from her and the scene of them just doing drugs and we're cutting back and forth is really it's just funny. And they made a lot of that stuff up as they were going, as they were filming. It's just funny, I think. I don't know how. I mean, this is just my take, but I think Jessica Biel's character is specifically out to get Lauren. You think to screw her over. I mean, it really seems that way, but wow, that's what's so strange. I the thing that clued me into it is like when she has sex with Sean, which does happen, we're getting a little ahead of ourselves. So she gets, you know, she because she basically does. She just lies. Yeah, straight up lies. Because Lauren's going to be coming to that party, but she's like, no, she's out of town. So you just have me and then they have sex and then she, you know, gets depressive about her childhood. I think that she feels better about herself if she's able to take things away from her quote unquote friend. Potentially. I mean, she screws her over a lot in this time frame. And I'm like, how is this still your friend? How is this you're, like, trusting, doing drugs with, having good times with. She does not seem like. Yeah, it doesn't seem like a good a good friend or good hang, but she does end up marrying Senator. Yeah. I mean, so we're told. Well, you know, life's a twisted place to go. Yeah, but let's move in the next big set piece. I have it called it's Dick. It's. Yeah. Which this guy Russell, Sam's absolutely fucking going for it as his family friend of Paul's. Because Paul's had to go away to meet. That's another thing you want to talk about a wrestling pop. This movie gets such a powerful all the sudden fucking Faye Dunaway just walks into it. Faye Dunaway, Susie Kurtz, you're like, what? How? I still don't get how that happened. They someone's agent must have known someone. I don't know, but they get and she's not like she's not phoning it in like Faye's funny in it. Just counting the pills. Yeah. And drinking like. Oh, give her another one. I love that. So, yeah, the two moms are taken. They're very drunk, rambunctious sons out to dinner. But this guy, I mean, this is such, like, an insane scene, and. Yeah, let's just open it up to George Michael Faith dance to, being at the whole thing at the table. It's so like, cringe and awkward. I love this high society, high falutin people getting this shit, like, slam back to him. It's one of the reasons why we love Babylon so much. But I love just, you know, lower your voice. Richard had him not I just I love watching this. I love the black sheep flipping out. It's such a Bret Easton Ellis character. It absolutely is. Because he does this a lot where in his stories there will come like one character who just serves his purpose for like one scene. And then we never hear from him again. Yeah. And this is that guy, and and he just comes out of nowhere. It is just this tornado of absurd, ridiculous, fucked up ness. And and it's one of those scenes where I love this about this movie is that it's the point that I make a lot of times where, like, people ask what scenes should be cut from a movie. There is no point to has this scene. So whatsoever it just does not serve the plot in any sort of way. Nothing. But it doesn't even tell us anything about Paul. No, it doesn't do anything because we know Paul's going, town. He could just stay out of town and and everything's fine because it never comes back to this either. But if you don't have this scene, the movie is absolutely without it just. It's like, oh, yeah, this scene is so ridiculous and fun that sometimes you just have to do things. And especially if you are making well, I use fun in a loose term. I think this movie's a lot of fun, but it's a fun movie with some serious shit. Yeah, yeah. And if this if this movie didn't have it, I'd be like, if I knew it did. But all of a sudden it got cut. I'd be like, oh man, that's a mistake. That's such a mistake. Yeah, sometimes you just gotta put something in that's going to be a hit as a scene, even if it does nothing structurally, storytelling wise. That's the thing. Because you someone could watch this and be like, well, that scene doesn't need to be there, but no one watching this is going to go that scene. It's boring because it's not. No, it's outrageous and hilarious on purpose. That actor again is just going for it. And you don't get it. You get some guy to come in and steal the movie for like seven minutes and it's hysterical. He's stealing the movie from Faye Dunaway. Like, what the hell? It's oh my God, it just. Yeah, it's Dick or I love a oh rich yellow deploy. Hey, I leave you rich. I leave you alone for five minutes. And you, Drake, a drunk, high drunk. I don't drink, so good. He pops in on the commentary for just this sequence, and they're like, with Ian Somerhalder. They're like, what were you drinking? And he said, really watered down, gross iced tea. And he's like, so I was drinking that much. Jack Daniels, I wouldn't be able to stand, but whatever. It's fun. Oh my God, whatever. It's. They said they had to shoot that scene. It went to like three in the morning because say was took a little long time to get ready and hair and makeup. Also as a commentary. Listen, Ian Somerhalder, real bad hang. He still should not have included his commentary on this. He's just, he talk about a green actor. He. I'm sure he's mature now, but he's talking about all the things in the movie that annoyed him, like, oh, God, this took so long to set up near it. So I didn't understand his portion long at all. It's like, dude, relish the opportunity that you got. Not like, yeah, he's he just seems like I'm sure times it's long time ago, you know, it's it's fine. All right. The dress to get screwed party. Oh, yes. Maybe. Here we are. Some people are naked. Some are in costumes. Looks like there's a few eyes wide shut masks. Sean is just in normal clothes. Eating shrooms out of a plan. Eating shrooms with the most disgusted look on his face. Oh, yeah. He's like, Laura is doing coke that she just bought from Sean. I missed that little line. She goes, I'm so glad you're still dealing. So he is. You never see him, like, complete a deal. But he is. Yeah. Dealer and in there clearly focused state of mind with Lauren. Not here. They go off and have sex together. Which is bad mistake on all parts. It's kind of it's a funny scene when it's going because he's tripping and he's like just really like spacing out, like focus. And he's envisioning Lauren everything. But I only had sex with only screwed her because I'm in love with you. Yeah. Will it ever end? And then yes, she Jessica Biel rolls over and she's all sad. Yeah. I was born in a Holiday Inn and you're like, yeah. Wow. That that is what this movie and Elisa's writing can do. It can really stick out and punch you like that. And you're like, yeah, these. There's a darkness to all these people. Certainly. Yeah, certainly. And then absolutely. But then I mean right away we go from there to this, I mean probably the oh maybe now is the film's most notorious scene. And I did say earlier, like the rape sequence is that's never fun to watch, of course, but this one's tough. We come to a suicide here. Yeah. Yeah. There won't be any more notes. This is last call. This is this is this scene scored? Devasted to Without You by Harry Nielsen. And it's a hard, realistic scene to watch of who we learn has actually been planting the notes. We don't really learn that. Yeah. We don't really know who this is with like while this is happening, we don't really know who this person is and we see her getting it. She just seems like a random character gets in a tub, slits her wrists. It's very. You know what I want to say? It's exactly what I'll say it like, talked about this on the Gas Bar and Away podcast as it relates to irreversible. If your mission is to show me that difficult of a scene and show me something that is terrible, didn't show me the realism of it, show me how it really is in this movie goes there and it shows us the audio dips out, the camera turns. It's very painful for me. Yeah, it's and it's it sounds very. Yeah. This is not glorify suicide at all. This is this movie does not glorify rape or any of the tough things we're talking about. What it does is shine a light on the nihilistic behavior of the characters. Not saying that suicide is nihilistic, but it's it's when it needs to get real. It does. And this is a very, very devastating scene that it really again, it just comes out of nowhere and you're like, fuck, I remember seeing this and yeah, like, wow, dude. Yeah, but you don't know what's going on until Lauren discovers that her roommate has been sleeping with her crush, Sean, she walks in on them. That's been Sean's, like, the only reason I slept there is because I'm in love with you. Okay, buddy. And then right after that, she goes into this shared bathroom, this bathtub, and finds her friend. And that is when we learn that we get those great shots of the lonely girl. And as the movie's been going, she's been watching Sean. We see her serving food in the cafeteria. She is standing by the mail room where she presumably just left a letter. You know, she's at the party when she. When he leaves with Jessica Biel. It's devastating. The whole sequence. It it really is. And, I mean, and you really feel for Lauren because she just got double whammy with just. Yeah, this. And then even something even worse in in the suicide and finding somebody like that. Yeah. And then shortly after she walks in on this fucking idiot Sean, who's just, like, very feebly attempted to die by suicide, he's got this fake blood on him. And imagine that. Imagine, like you walked in on your roommate having sex with your crush. You walked in on your friend who's just started by, and then he got to see your idiot. This idiot show just sitting there and you're like, what the fuck? Oh my God, it his face like. But I really believe her. And she's like, you're sick, Sean. Wow. Yeah. You're sick. Yeah. It's sad. Yeah, I cracked up when when he first. It's ridiculous. I say I cracked up when he first tried to hang himself because, like, he wraps it and he just goes, Lord. Yeah, it's like a fucking garden. But it's for a plant. It's not for a grown man. Idiot. And then. So now that all that sadness is done. Suicide, attempted suicide. Now that all that's done, Lawrence got to go back to her, to her room. She begins to cry. We cut to a shot of this guy in this picture that she's been talking about all the time. This Victor guy there, her long lost love, you know, their lovers. But he's in Europe. And at an hour and 22 minutes into the rules of attraction, we experience, in my humble opinion, one of the best movie sequences of this century so far. And that is Victor is experience in Europe, where we have a back to home now. So strip of clothes off, sucker toes. We hung out for 4 or 5 days, met the world's biggest DJ Paulo control, kept missing the changing of the guards, rolling out a postcard I never sent. But some speed for an Italian junkie. Was trying to sell me a stolen bike. Smoked a lot of hash that had too much tobacco in it, saw the tapes of big band eat a lot of weird English food. It rained a lot. It was expensive and I'm jonesing. So I split for Amsterdam. The Dutch all know English, so I didn't have to speak any Dutch, which was a relief. I cruised the red light district, visit a sex show, visit a sex museums, drink a lot of hash. I mean a Dutch TV actor. So we drank absinthe at a bar called absinthe. The museums are cool. I guess lots of hand goes in there for me and we're intense. Wandered around, bought a lot of pastries, 80 intense waffles. We bought some coconut. Cruz, the red light district, and I found some blond with big tits. It might be a witch. Yeah, this is just. It's an all timer sequence. The way they shot it, the way it's edited. Oh, my God, the first time seeing it, I was so overwhelmed. And every time I watch it, it's just brilliant. It's absolutely brilliant. I want to know more than anything how they did this. Does he talk? Oh, I know every story. I know everything about how they did it. Get into it. Okay, here we go. So there's three of them. It's Kip Purdue, Roger Avery and the producer. Yeah, it's the three of them walking around because the producer is getting people to sign releases right away if they can sign it. So they're going for two weeks to Europe. And Roger Avery shot it himself. He paid for this himself because the studio wouldn't pay to, like, for one actor to go all over Europe. And they got, you know, special like Sony Cam so that it was portable. And Avery said, the only rule is that you are Victor the second you get off the plane in Europe, and the second you get back on the plane, you are Victor. And he only broke character once because they got into like a minor argument. Otherwise, Kip Purdue was Victor and he filmed it. And whatever situation wow, they got themselves into, they filmed it. He actually turned this into a rather infamous movie called glitterati, which will never see the light of day because I think it excludes and includes some explicit stuff. He also, Avery said he scored the whole thing to music that he doesn't have the rights to, and he's never going to be able to clear the music because in the movie it's only five minutes. But he said he shot the entire time he was awake, so Victor, quote unquote wanted to go to a hotel or rather wanted to go to a club. They'd go to a club and after a while he, Avery would say, within meeting within minutes of people meeting Victor, they would just forget the camera was there. They just thought he was paparazzi. But he never was like, I'm Kip Purdue. He was saying he's a fashion model, like Victor, or he was saying he's a college student, Victor in it. So it's all just real. Like all the situations are real. And they got, you know, I mean he would like bring women back to the room. And then Avery would excuse himself. He wouldn't because he wasn't interested in filming pornography. But yeah. Yeah. Like he did drugs. He so, so everything we're seeing is just real. Like getting lost with people, all this stuff, it's so frantic in the way that they did that shooting constantly for two weeks. The amount of footage you would have would be insane. So what he did is he used basically half of what is in Alice's book, and then half of his own experiences in going backpacking around Paris in Europe when he was a kid, when Avery was a kid. And what we get is just this sequence that is so it's really ingenious, Ellison said. It's the best sequence ever made from anything he's written. I think it's the sequence of Avery's career. It's not uncomplicated how they did it. It just takes a lot of dedication. And he never broke character just being this, like. And Victor is not like Kit Purdue. He's not because he comes in on the commentary kit reviews. Like, I wasn't even a big drinker. Like I didn't even this really wasn't me. So that was the hard part of it. The constant moving and going and going. Different cities, different cities. It's like I did not live that lifestyle, but it makes for it just a great sequence. I think the sequence of the film, oh, that's I love that so much. I would love to be a part of something like that. Yeah, I would love to see glitterati. I don't think a lot of people have seen it pretty soon. Others have seen it, but I, I bet it's just nuts. Absolutely nuts. It's got. But I guess we'll never see it. Yeah. So that's it. What do you think of the sequence? So I think it's one of the coolest things I've ever seen. I love the everything's Polanski and it shows like The White Mask. It's so creepy with the voiceover and the frenetic pace, but the fact that you're matching it with footage that is just unmistakable. It's not CGI, they're not green screening it. Right. That's that's like that's why I wanted to know him. Like, I mean, essentially the only thing that I could think of is that they did exactly what you just explained to me, that they that's what they did. But but I couldn't wrap my head around how could they actually do that? And so to hear that, that is exactly what happened. Oh, makes my filmmaking heart happy, because it's sort of like, that's just I've always wanted to be able to like, film in a way where it's like, let's just get a bunch of footage, but you have to just do the whole entire thing just and, you know, like I, I've always loved the, Tove Lo video. Crazy reference. I love that too. Because, yeah, that was just her. And they're like, all right, you're going to go out for a couple nights and just get hammered and we're going to film it all, and then we're going to use all that footage as the music video and like, that's such a cool idea. Yeah. Did we, didn't we have an idea for something like or I think, yeah. No. Know, I've always wanted to replicate that. I wanted to do that and I'm alive. That type of camera work. Yeah I've, I've been I that Tumblr video is so like important to me. I love that so much. And just seeing that love it despair. Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. That's still I'm have not given up on that at all. And seeing that that kind of despair play out for a night or something all in one angle. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. Oh my God, what a sequence. Oh I love that. Paid for it themselves. It's so good. And then it ends of course with my favorite line in the movie I no longer know who I am, but I feel like the ghost of a total stranger. I love that cheese. Oh, it's so good. It's so good. And then. Yeah, and then that cuts straight to them, like in a diner. So we're seeing him, you know, in his real, real setting. And Thomas Ian Nichols may be our only American Pie connection here. I love that shit head like this. Victor, tell Sean that he doesn't fucking trust him. He's like, I don't fucking trust you when he has to go buy drugs for him. This is the funniest fucking scene to me because they go to Rupert's house, the crazy drug dealer, to buy more drugs for them, but he already owes him like tens of thousands of dollars. And when the scene ends and Sean just throws, what the hell's his name? Throws Mitchell like a couple grams of coke, suggesting that he already had it on him the whole time. All of this was for nothing like going to this party because. Yeah. Yeah. My buddy Mitch here, he's got it. He's got the graph or he's got the cash. He's like, he doesn't have it. It's just so ridiculous and it's hilarious. And you're really like, yeah, everyone just spin it out now. Oh yeah. You know, you sort of. Yeah. You sort of. Again, a guy was just no idea what to do with his time. Okay. Exactly. That's it I love it. He walks in, it goes to college juniors like Sean. Hi. Like he. Wait, so you know somebody by some code? Did you know? Did you know, got some love confessions here? Sean pleads with Lauren and gets shot down. She tells him you will never, ever know me. Lauren is ecstatic to see Victor again. She's heard he's back in town. She goes to his room. Oh man. Yeah. He does not have the slightest idea who she is. That's issue one. This. She has been talking about him the whole damn movie. Can't wait. Where's my victor? It'll be. Everything will be fine when he gets back. He has no idea who she is. And then none. The cherry on top is who's in the background dancing half naked on the bed. Best friend Laura, played by Jessica Biel. So you're like, wow. I mean, this is like, what else? Oh, God, where is this woman go? She goes to the end of the world party. But oh. Paul pleads with Sean, get shot down. Sean says to him, you're not ever going to know me. I love fucking balls like showgirls. I wish you wouldn't say stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, I wish you would tell me stuff like that. I don't know what you think this is. Man. So sad. I just feel for Lawrence so much. I mean, like, the worst few days for life. Because we know what happens. Because we go to the end of the world party. We know how her night ends up. And that's the circular narrative. It's. Everything's all done. So at least we get to see Lauren after the event, because she goes outside and has a smoke with Paul. So it's not I don't know, it's not like dead or something, but yeah, it's like she'll be okay. Yeah. Coming. I, honestly, of everyone involved, I think she'll be the most okay. I don't I think she got the most fucked over and maybe that made, I don't know, maybe that made for the best resolve. I'm not sure, but it. Oh my God. Like I love. I guess we'll talk about just ending back where we began. I love that I love that circular narrative of now we're back at the party that we began, and we're seeing the weird stuff. We're seeing all the different motivations now. It's just a really cool thing, that's all. Yeah, it's awesome. And it plays really well because when you actually get there, you're like, oh, you, you get that little moment. And then because of the way it starts and you know, that's how it ends is sort of beautifully unfulfilling. Yeah. Like it's, it's that but that's Brett. That's exactly I mean personally I love downer endings. Yeah I think that they're awesome. We don't get enough of them. We don't get enough good ones. Right. But you have to go all in. It is it's it's the it's the whole entire like even with the motorcycle shot, it's so faithful to the book. Yeah, yeah. I mean, so yeah. Exactly. It's exactly it. And and two, it's not even ambiguous. It's just it's a complete fuck you ending. Yeah. It's. But but you've already gotten enough there to where it's already not a good ending. But what. I mean like it's not a happy ending. Yeah. It's not happy because that's what ends up happening. And it's just sort of like, oh, that's awesome. And then the song just kicks on will be too. It's just crazy. Yes. Hilarious. But yeah, the movie stops mid-sentence as the book does. I read the first time reading that. Definitely thinking was a mistake, as you're saying. Like toward the end of the book, one of Lauren's paragraph chapters, it says her name and it's just blank. It's like blank. After she's found out all this awful shit. And what a great state of mind for a character in prose to be like, I'm nothing to write here. I'm just blank. It's so good. And she. Yeah, she really embodies that. Well, so that's our movie. That's the Rules of Attraction. It's love this fucking movie. It's probably. I wonder how this comes across in the in in a deep dive like this, but like it's because I think it's just one of those things where we're recommending this movie because we we like it. For all of this cynical, nihilistic ways. Yeah, but if you already know that you don't like that, find another movie that we've recommended. Yes. I mean, it's important to note. Yeah. This is, we've we've talked about a lot of different movies on this podcast, but I have noticed as we've been talking, we're using some words that we instantly terms that we don't use a lot. We're being kind of frank in sexuality and stuff and even talking about some difficult themes, but that's just what the movie presents us. And this is not a movie was never trying to win Oscars. It was never even attempting that. It's just a fun fuck you college movie, honestly, but somehow is more honest. And I think most genuine college movies, I don't know. Yes, there's I'm not saying all this stuff happens, but like, it doesn't it. And it I don't know, it feels that's Bret Easton Ellis's argument. This shit goes on, I put it down and I don't let it destroy myself or my characters. It's just the way it happens. Yeah, it's just shit that went down. Yeah. And even, like, laughing through some of the dialog. I mean, the only reason we are is because that's the way it's presented. Yeah, it's it's it's there's there's things that are meant to be humorous if you want it. Fine. But that's the argument that people are like about American Psycho. Until I realized that movie was a comedy, I was horrified by it then. This is the same way. Like if you watch this movie without any sort of room for cynical humor, this is going to be a very miserable ride. Yeah, you need to understand the night. Like if you've seen American Psycho but never got around to Rules of Attraction and you like American Psycho, I'm not going to promise you'll like it, but you have a really, really good chance of liking it. Yeah, if the humor, if the sense of humor in American Psycho is something that you vibe to it, then yeah, you can absolutely check this out. But yeah, understand that the people you're watching are not role models. That's not who these characters are. There's no attention. There's no hero. That's not the protagonist at all. No, no. Yeah. And really, this is really just more of a testament to our favorite author. It's just like, this is a very, very good adaptation of his book. And we rarely get to kind of talk about, our favorite books to movie adaptations. We've covered a little bit. Why did that episode. Yeah. The, what do you read as way back? Yeah, yeah, you were there. You were there. You interviewed me pretty. Let's go through, real quick. Lesson zero, 1985 Rules of Attraction 87, American Psycho 91. Keep in mind, he's very, very young. This whole time. The informers, 1994. Glamor Rama, which is all about the Victor character from The Rules of Attraction as a model. That book is insane. Took him ten years to write Lunar Park, an amazing auto fiction of sorts about his relationship with his father. That is the one I go back to the most that I've gone back to as an adult. As I get older, more and more and more really very, very good. Yes, yes, that is a very good book that didn't hit in 2005 when it came out. The way it does for me. Now I'm just older. It's gotten better as I've gotten older. Imperial bedrooms, which is a quasi sequel to lesson Zero. You can read Imperial Bedrooms is the shortest book I've read that in one setting before. She just breezes by. It's great. I reread all these, blacks. I'll get to that. White was a memoir, a sort, basically a collection of podcast monologues. So it's nonfiction, released in 2019. And then his new his latest book called The Shards, released last year. I experienced this book for the first time this is what got me into audiobooks, because on his podcast, he would basically do an hour every podcast. He would start with an hour from this book, and he did not know. He was just telling us a story. He didn't know if it was going to be a book, he didn't know what it was going to be. And he did this for weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks. So I was so invested in it. And then he turned that into the charts. Wow. It's his longest book. It again, much like Lunar Parts features himself. It's, it's not a nonfiction book, but it features a character named Brett growing up in LA in the early 80s. Absolutely fascinating. Movies are such an important aspect to it. And I've the shards is the only book of his. I have not read. I have a copy of it, but I've only I've listened to him read it on the podcast, and then I bought the audiobook and listen, he reads the audiobook. So I did that. Oh, he did and I yeah, yeah. And it's it's very good. But I mean, some people are saying it's his best or his best since American Psycho. I loved every book that I just listed. I love them all. They're glamor Rama so dense. But yeah, that's what I haven't read. Oh my God, it's. Have you read the shards? You can read the charts, right? No, I've heard you did either. Yeah, or white glamor. Am is fucking, like it's a masterpiece. It's wild. It's it's very, very long. But man, it's just the turns it takes. And I always forget how fucking crazy it's going to get. So. Yeah, I had no idea that was Victor. Oh, that's really cool. Yeah, that's Victor from it. So you'll you'll hear, you know, other characters are brought up. That's what's so cool is that in some world, a lot of his books are kind of related in this way. And you'll just. They are in character. Yeah, I love that. I did mention the DVD a little bit. He did funny things with commentaries. I get what he was going for, but it's this revolving door. What I did was I found out who was on each track, and I just kept changing the track based on the scene. And I knew that's it. Like, okay, who's going to talk during Victor? Theresa Wyman is the woman who died by suicide. She talks during that. So that's like a really interesting portion. And then favorite story about the DVD, Bret Easton Ellis, they called him in there to do a DVD commentary. Right? He got so loaded the night before on alcohol and cocaine that he, like, woke up. He I think he said he only slept for about an hour, woke up, was still doing drugs, was doing drugs. Like right before they started recording. He recorded it in one sitting and it was so just unintelligible that they threw it out. And they had they brought in someone else, a surprise guest to do, who had never seen the movie, to do a random commentary. And they got fucking Carrot Top white. So Carrot Top does a commentary on the movie. I have listened to it. He it's, you know, how we record commentaries. You can't hear the movie that well because you have to talk. So like you're not listening to the movie necessarily at full volume. So he just comments about like what he's seeing. It's so ridiculous and so stupid. But I love the story that Bret Easton Ellis was so loaded. Yeah, that his commentary was unusable. I want to listen to that shit. I think some of the shit I yeah, I hear I like the unintelligible stuff. Yeah, it wouldn't like clear, right? I don't know, I just, I love that story that is not included in the DVD, but it's still funny. So it's a funny story. And my last note was the Casper Van Dean Patrick Bateman scene, which you can find on YouTube. And it's it's amusing to watch, like it's not a bad scene. It's fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's it. Good DVD. All right. Great. Great movie, great DVD, great movie we've arrived at. What are you watching? You're going to take it away for us. I'm bring to, No no no no no no, I will shoulder the weight. All right. As always, I will not leave the table. I'm recommending a book. It's his first book. Ready? Smells less than zero. There it is. It's number one. It's a great introduction to him as a writer. It was the first book that I read from him, and, And it. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah, I was in psycho. I started hard, it's the hardest. No, I mean glamor. It's definitely if you start with American Psycho, though, and, like, I finish it quickly. I devoured it Less than Zero and Rules of Attraction. You are like they're they're fast. They feel like CliffsNotes. That's how fast they go. Yeah, yeah, they have Rules of Attraction right here. I reread this fucker when you decided this is what we were going to do. I reread it in a week, just like the actual book, reading it because it moves so fast. I wish I could read that fast. Well, it's also I've read it before and stuff, but I, you know, I just read in a few pages, a few 30 pages a day. It's easy. You keep you keep the tension the whole entire time. Yeah. Wow. I like to read, I, I'm going to be in a writing era here. It's what, you know, keeping it under wraps for now, but 2025, I think I'm going to get some writing done. So, yeah, I've been reading. Reading a lot. Reading a lot more. All right, all right, I like it. I think it's time. Oh, I think it's is it time? Is it is the thing that I think it is. Yeah I have to, I have to yeah. Yeah. We can talk about we've talked about it. We texted about it, about death. Yeah. Yes. Excellent. That's good though. Lesson zero. Yes. Very. Oh my God, what a book. Jesus. There. There's this. There's a scene, a part of the book where it all it is is him talking about him going out on a joyride in the streets of Los Angeles in, like, midnight for no reason. Yeah. And this was the thing where I was like, how do you do that? Now, granted, it was very tailor made to people who know California. If you know Los Angeles, you know, he's so specific about every single street and how it can. Yes. So it is it does sort of help in a way where I'm like, oh my God, I know that. But even if you don't, it's still like, why the hell is this here? And it's just because that character needed to go out, he like, and this is what he did, and it's just one of those things where I was sort of like, this is like how like, I didn't know you could do that. Yeah. And it's. And then that transitions into American Psycho, where he's talking about what clothes people are wearing and goes on for pages and pages. Oh. So it's yeah, it's so and it's just like one of those things where it's like, why are you doing this? I don't know, I want to it's funny and weird and it's just unlocked a brand new way of thinking. And so ultimately, with this episode is really just like a celebration for Brett's writing. So I'm recommending the start at the beginning, less than zero. It's better than the movie. Oh, and, and just just open up to Brett is. That's a great call. All right. Ready? Snell's was born in March 1964. Lesson zero was published in 1985. That means when it was published, and we all know it takes longer to write a book than to publish it. So he was writing this when the book was published. He was 21 years old. He was 21 years old. That's that. He was under 30 when he published American Psycho. Wow, man. Like, it's really, really some. And they don't read it's juvenile books. Rules of attraction lesson zero. Not at all. Like they're very there's some, dark stuff in them, as you might suspect, but. Oh, I can't even I could not I had to yeah. Look down. American Psycho has a few tough ones, but. And that's what they're mostly known for. But again, American Psycho was like 400 plus pages. And the violence is like, I don't know, 12 pages. And also, I will say his violence and his sex scenes. One thing he does, he never adds flourishes and adjectives. He just describes how they are. That is all he does. They're very clinical, but what's going on within them is intense. But he doesn't. He's not like the blood dripping. It's nothing like that at all. No, it's very interesting. Is Rules of Attraction the book where I can't remember if it's Sean who takes the taxi he, like, gets in a taxi at Union Station. Or is it lesson zero? When Clay gets in a taxi? It's one of the books where I get a taxi and they tell the address and the taxi driver is like, are you kidding me? He's like, no, I'm not kidding. Just drive the car. And he literally drives like half a block and then drops him off. I don't remember, but it is. It's so funny. It's so funny. Might be Sean and Rules of Attraction. I think it's Sean Bateman. He's so out of it. He forgets like where he is because their dad dies. In the book in rules of Attraction, the Bateman father dies. So that's a whole subplot, like a really long subplot in tangent. And I think he goes back to New York for that. Maybe I'm wrong or LA, I don't fucking know. Look how far this has gotten us. All right, well, you know what? You convince me. It's what I'm going to do. I did already mentioned it, but I'm going to go. That's tough to pick one. I will go with Luna Park, like, I really I mean, if you're an Elvis fan, I don't think I don't know how many people necessarily. It's like the least flashy of his books because it doesn't have the like it's take flight. It takes place in suburbia in this writer named Bret Easton Ellis is married to a woman, and they have a kid. And it's it's just all that stuff. And this was in a time when he was not explicit with his sexuality and just coming out and saying, I'm gay. So he was still playing with that, and then knowing that he wrote it for his dad, who had a very tumultuous relationship with his dad. It sounded like an absent dad who just wasn't around a lot, working a lot, all that stuff. It's really, really good book. Someone was trying to make it ages ago. I don't maybe even Gus Van Zandt took a stab at it. He was going to try to make it, you know, like as a movie, but it's I, I really wish it could be adapted. And there are you'll hear some characters from his other books. So it's just it's all very it's all very cool. I like it a lot. So that's good. Will recommend some some books. Ellis some books go out there and read folks. Rules of attraction. That was fun. Glad we got to talk about it. Nihilistic. Yeah, it's a nihilistic view of the world, but if you're into that type of it's basically what he said is Roger Avery said, I wanted to make I wanted to make a movie. On the nihilism and the luxurious debauchery of the ruling class, and that's what it is. Everyone in the movie is privileged. None of them are like stringing for a dollar. They all have money coming in, they all have access, and they're all idiots who make bad decisions and who have bad things happen to them. And that's what the movie's about to go, you know, appreciate it through that lens. Any final words? Rock n roll. Rock n roll. Deal with it, man. Let us know what you think of this wild movie and of Bret Easton Ellis at W AIW underscore podcast. But as always, thanks for listening and happy we'll be together again. I've been waiting for a long time. We're gonna be. We're gonna be together again. I'll be connecting. Hey, everyone. Thanks again for listening. You can watch my films and read my movie blog at Alex withrow.com. Nicholas Dose Telecom is where you can find all of Nick's film work. Send us mailbag questions at What Are You Watching podcast@gmail.com, or find us on Twitter, Instagram and Letterboxd at wri w underscore podcast. We're gearing up for Megalopolis. Francis Ford Coppola cast it all in to give us this movie. Nick and I are going to be able to watch it together, which we're very excited about. But first we're going to jump 50 years back to another wholly original but much smaller Francis Ford Coppola movie. 1974 The Conversation, starring Gene Hackman. Never a bad time to rewatch this one. Go check it out. Stay tuned. Stop Tokyo before you go to Hong, the Parliament, before you make a fool out of the whole oh one. Next morning, I wake up talking to myself. I pick up my head from flailing in my sleep. I get my stomach, barely make my plane back. United States. I no longer know who I am, and I feel like a ghost of total strangers.