40: John Cazale

What do "The Godfather," "The Conversation," "The Godfather: Part II," "Dog Day Afternoon," and "The Deer Hunter" all have in common? The legendary John Cazale. Alex and Nick discuss arguably the best supporting actor who ever lived. What’s your favorite John Cazale performance? Let us know on Twitter @WAYW_Podcast!
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Hey, everyone. Welcome to. What are you watching? I'm Alex with Throw, and I'm joined, as always, by my best man Nick Dostal. So how are you doing there, Fredo? I'm excited to be here. This is what his dad does. This is this. Today we're talking about the great the iconic, the legendary John Cazale, perhaps the most talented actor to only ever be in five movies total These movies came out in a six year period in the 1970s. They were all hailed as classics immediately. All the movies were nominated for best picture. And the common thread of all of them is this guy. This one guy who can be noticeable in the background and then completely still scenes without us even realizing it. Tell me about John Cazale. I think the best way that I can sum up him is that I truly think that he is the definition of what is supporting actor is saying. These are all the parts that he's played, and I think he just he defines what that actually means. Before we get into the work, as we're talking about John Cazale, there is a very harsh reality that we have to face upfront, and that is the fact that this man did not live very long. He was 42 years old when he died of lung cancer in early 1978, and he is inarguably one of the great acting legends that we lost too soon. And in that upsetting vein, we have a few more people to mention before we get into Cazale here. Michael Kay Williams, a tremendous actor to me. He started popping up in small film and TV parts in the late nineties. He had massive success on television, but he was also directed on film by so many greats. Scorsese Spike Lee, Todd Sloan, Steve McQueen PTA, John Hillcoat, Edward Norton, and then on TV, he clearly repeatedly stole shows like The Night of which was astounding. Lovecraft Country, Best Boardwalk Empire. And of course, of course, Omar Little in the Wire, one of the great iconic performances of this century in TV or film. You know, I've followed his career very closely because of the Omar influence. He just he had such an openness of that character, and he seemed so immersed in that character, very fiber and we're not alone in our fond remembrance of him. And then a few days later, we get hit with another bombshell, which is that the great legendary iconic comedian Norm Macdonald passed away. And I love Norm Macdonald. You and I grew up on his humor. And of course, he was. He was on Weekend Update and SNL and just made those ceaseless OJ jokes. He just kept going and kept going. They eventually fired him for it because I guess someone high up at NBC was like, stop making those jokes because O.J. is my friend and Norm wouldn't. And then, you know, they brought him back like a year and a half later to host the show and he just roasted the whole time. But yeah. Tell me about Mike Williams. Tell me about Norm. Yeah, it's it's sad. It's unfortunate because when something like this happens, you look back at the work that was left. And what's great is that you get to look back at this work. And what's horrible is that you realize that no more is coming and that that's that's the tragedy of it. And the most important thing you can do in death is to celebrate the life. Right. Right. And no matter how it happens or whatnot, it almost what matters is the legacy in this case that, you know, these two men left. Norm Macdonald for me was I thought he was one of the funniest quick one line joke makers of our time. Like, I, I don't even mean to sound too extravagant here, but I think since Rodney Dangerfield Norm McDonald was the best at just quick hit you with this that right on the spot just jokes. Yeah. It's just it's just it's a sad it's a sad time for all of that. A toast to the greats. Absolutely. And now on to Mr. Cazale junk. Zell was born in Revere Massachusetts in 1935. He was interested in acting and he took the stage work while he was in college in Ohio and Boston. That stage work took him to off Broadway work in New York, in between gigs in New York. He's a messenger for Standard Oil, where he meets a young, shy kid named Alfredo James Pacino. The two become fast friends. Al helps because they all get cast in a few things. But really, after you watched John Kasich's first performance, in The Godfather, and you study those eyes, you know, those eyes, those fucking eyes. And as Sam Rockwell describes them, yeah, you watch Gazelles, Fredo and you know that his talent is going to carry him through throughout his entire career. A friend may help him get in the door, but it's those eyes and it's that talent that really, really prominent directors called him back for. But I wanted to kick it over to you. What is the first exposure you remember having to John Cazale? And I think my first exposure to him had to have been The Godfather movies, but I didn't take notice of him. Which is a bit of a unfortunate common trait among his legacy, I think, and why he may have kind of flew under the radar of a lot of things is because he does go unnoticed until you notice him. Right? And once you notice him, you can't not notice him. He even in the background, he is the most watchable thing of everything you're seeing So it does take like a little bit to say, almost to the untrained eye, you're just sort of like watching a bunch of things and all of a sudden this jewel is unearthed before your eyes But I think I really noticed him in The Deer Hunter. I think that was the one where I was like, oh, same. Same. Yeah, same exact. That's so interesting. Keep going. I was taken by his performance, and I go, This is Fredo. Like, I know him. And then you just go back and you look and you're like, Oh, my God, it's the guy in Dog Day afternoon. And he's in the conversation. Like, he just all of a sudden pops up, and you didn't even know he was there. Yeah, I first notice Cazale It's funny. It's like the same kind of. I had the same sort of in that you did. I watched The Godfather first, but the thing that really made him stand out to me was the Deer Hunter. And I was obsessed with movies when I was so young. And as a young movie buff, the five movies he's in are going to announce themselves to you pretty early on because they're these classics that were nominated for Best Picture. A few of them won. And so I start on these classics and I'm like, Who the hell is this guy? Like, I know Brando. I know Pacino. I know DeNiro. I know Diane Keaton. But who is this guy with these eyes, these sunken dark eyes? And once I realized he died so young, I mean, it was just really devastating to a young movie. Buck like. Oh, five. Wow. Just same here. I love the five. I'll always love the five. But just, you know, imagine the classic performances that could have followed. But I grew up in a house where my dad revered James Dean, you know, Monty Clift, but really, Dean and he would show me Rebel Without a Cause. He'd be like, look at him. Like, look at the way he's acting and behaving, reacting yeah. And Cazale fits into that, too. One of these legends that we just lost entirely too soon, you could tell from his first moment on screen that this is someone who's going to be really important for film for as long as we have him. And in that vein, we'll jump right into the roles here. And we start with Fredo Corleone in The Godfather. 1972. There honestly aren't too many film character names that can legitimately be used as a slur, but Fredo certainly can. I remember a few years ago, CNN's Chris Cuomo lost his shit when a guy called him out and called him Fredo in public. And I think that man was trying to suggest that Chris was the inferior brother of that family. But I'm not so sure that turned out too well. When we hear Fredo, we think, you know, it's Fredo. If I call you Fredo, I'm calling you scared, incompetent. Weak, vulnerable. And that's based off of a performance with relatively little screen time. John Cazale is not in this movie that much, but no matter when he's on whether he's next to Brando, Pacino, Duvall, Jimmy Caan, this dude is holding his own. It's heads down those eyes are sunken back. And the first time we see him, he's kind of on the outskirts of that Corleone family picture for the wedding. Not a bad way to start a movie. You're in there your first scenes with Brando, but then the first, like his first major scene, he rolls up next to Pacino and Diane Keaton. You know, he's drunk, and Pacino's playing off him, and he just kind of melts into it. And that's what a great introduction for him. You know, it's it's almost like the perfect dichotomy of his character, because the very first time we see him, he's in a family portrait. Off to the side, completely unnoticed, invisible. And then we next time we see him, he's kind of this foolish, charming, funny, non-threatening goof. And that's pretty much the levels of which he operates on. Yeah. Like, watch him when he is completely invisible. And then the way he masks that with this idea of this bravado character that I think he's just putting on because he can't deal with his own shame and insecurities about that. He's not taken seriously. Yeah, he's not Michael. He's not Sonny. And I mean, there are many iconic moments in The Godfather but too for John, because they'll really stick out for me that you once you watch the movie, you can't forget. The first is when he fumbles trying to protect his father, that Don, from being assassinated it you know, he just fumbles with that gun and then he sits there in sobs and sobs in the street like a little kid. And, you know, when I watch that, it's kind of like Coppola going, whether this was verbally expressed or not. It's like, hey, kid, you know, everyone else has their moment. Like, Pacino's about to shoot two dudes in the head and the restaurant Sonny is going to get iced out, like, Colin's going to get iced out in the tollbooth. This is your moment. You're going to have arguably the biggest movie star ever playing dead in your lap, and he just fucking owns it. I mean, you feel so bad. He seems like a child. He doesn't seem like a grown adult. He seems like a child scared. I love that scene. And then so that nearly ruins him. And then, yeah, he's. He's the girl who's now stricken with shock because he almost led. His dad dies. That may very well die because this, you know, he's Fredo. He's vulnerable. He's humble, he's dim. He wears those muted clothes. Doesn't say a lot, goes away for a little bit. And the next time we see him, he just burst through those doors in Las Vegas, which is a great scene. Great way to command a room. You talk a lot about how an actor has to command the space, and he doesn't go in that room and just do a little like jingle with his arms. Like he's like a conductor. Like he. Oh, man, I love that so much. And now he's loud, he's brash, his clothes are bright. And most notably, he is not in agreement with how the Corleones family business is being run. And, you know, Pacino's got that great. Don't ever take sides with anyone against the family again, ever. Which is like, if you do, I'm going to fucking kill you. Which, you know, the foreshadowing there. Yeah. Yeah. When you watch Fredo in that scene, we've never seen him quite like this. So big and boisterous And most actors are afraid to play small or fade into the background, but not John. Like when you watch him every scene before that big Las Vegas scene, he just finds a way to lose himself in the background. And most actors don't do that. They're like, How do I make myself visible? How do I do that? He's he's the opposite. And it's that's the truth. That's the character's truth. But when you watch him do that, you really notice the physical, the physicality, that his shoulders are dropped. His eyes don't know. He he can't make eye contact with people. It's so bold, but so subtle. So when he burst through these doors, now we're seeing that mask come on. And of maybe the guy he wants to be, maybe the guy he thinks that he can be. He's trying so hard to prove himself to, especially Michael, that when Michael tells him, I don't want any of this, like get rid of all these people, like like, you know, essentially, like, stop making a fool of the family. Get everyone out here I want we're here for business. You see in that little tiny moment, this rejection in his eyes of like I'm I did what you said to do like that you sent me here. I'm showing what I can do. But then you see that, and then he's just like, all right, everyone, scram. Scram. Get out of here. And it's just he's back to that mask. Yeah. Yeah. And one a little side note, you know, I was I was going on a tear and just making my way through the jungle thermography. And I figured I've never read The Godfather Mario Puzo's book, so why not? I mean, it's The Godfather. I've heard nothing but great things. And there's this really amusing subplot about a doctor in Las Vegas, and he's tied into the family. I won't get into why, but it's doctor. He's charismatic, and one of his primary jobs is to perform abortions for the girls who are in trouble around town. You know, mobster girlfriend, showgirls, things like that. And at one point, it is revealed that Fredo is responsible for at least 15 of the abortions the doctor has performed. And it really gives you some insight into how much of a Las Vegas playboy he turned into, which, you know, the book does not have a lot of him. Not really. So it just makes me appreciate his performance, everyone's performance, even that much more. But really, John Cazale, because the text doesn't have too much and they really, really fleshed him out. And it's just I thought that was a little, you know, nice little book report aside to include and it it speaks to in this performance, too, because you get the idea through his performance that he actually does this like you never see him specifically with like girls, but he dances with them, kisses him on the cheek, you know, from that opening scene with Kay that he's flirtatious, you know, because he's not a no disrespect, but he's not exactly a good looking guy. Right. Right. But you believe that he actually does all this like. Yeah, he probably sleeps with a lot of girls here because of just his personality. But it's so understated. And you the most important thing is you believe that that's that's what he does. And we'll move right along. We're going to go in chronological order here to how they in the order they filmed them. So, you know, it might be natural just to stay with Fredo, but we're going to switch to Stan the affable, curious, somewhat malcontent coworker of Gene Hackman in the conversation, also directed by Francis Ford Coppola, released in 1974, Francis Ford Coppola got on so well with Gizzle that after the first godfather that Coppola cast him in a small but crucial role as Stan and this is a great film, financed in part by Coppola himself. Gonzalez a bit lighter here than he is as Fredo. He laughs, he smiles. His chemistry with Gene Hackman is fucking incredible. They are great playing off each other. And, you know, by all accounts, Gene Hackman, tough guy to work with. I mean, nah, not a lot of cutting up between takes with old Hackman there, but what Hackman did admire was hard work. And John Cazale, by all accounts, was obsessive in his preparation. A few of his pals, including Meryl Streep and Al Pacino, described Gazelle as being mano maniacal in his prep in research, asking question after question after question about his character, trying to figure them out. And I think Hackman clearly saw this, and it seems like they got along really well together the whole time and that Hackman was in a good mood while he made this, which is very rare. And I know he still considered his role in the conversation as one of his personal favorites. And I think Ezell helped it that and 100%. And also, there's a cool story with Francis Ford Coppola telling John Cazale to like give it to him more like a baby in a scene. Yep. You, like, make it bigger and like hit him a little bit harder. And Gene Hackman. Yeah, he's the guy who wants to be challenged. And if you challenge him, that's when he he always shows up, but that's when he he really likes it. You know, Gene Hackman was Gene Hackman. John Cazale was someone that no one really knew outside of, you know, that first movie. And here he is going toe to toe with Gene Hackman. And I loved that little stand character from the conversation because he just he strikes me as an everyman man. You don't know too much about him, but you really get the feeling like this is a guy who's really good at his job and he's a nerd. He probably has really nerd hobbies. He goes home and probably, you know, builds train sets and knows everything that's going on in the news like these are just things that I picked up. Like, none of these things are being said in the text. But just by the way, that he shows up to work, what he talks to his coworker about the way he does I can infer from myself, based on my life experiences, I know who this guy is and he probably does these things. And that's what, you know, acting is all about is expressing these little bits of who we are as people. I love that about this character. And, you know, maybe I should have mentioned this on top, but you and I are engaging in this conversation with the assumption that people have seen these movies. Yeah. You know, it's we didn't want to kind of hold back anything. So we're trying to avoid spoilers but I think of these five films, this is probably the one that has been seen the least, and it's just a really trippy, good movie. It's all about sound recording and it you know, Coppola was very inspired by Blow Up the Antonioni film. Hackman is this guy who's in charge of recording people, getting audio recordings of people and giving them to really rich, mysterious clients. And Gazelle is his coworker. And for all these movies, there are really good commentaries on each of the Blu Rays and DVDs, and I watch them all in preparation for this, Coppola always gives great director's commentaries. And what he says in this that I never realized is he says, Stan puts forth the idea of the movie and is the one who's like, What's going on with this couple? What the hell are they talking about? Like, What is the big deal about this? And Hackman's like, I don't care. I just want it perfect fat recording. And then that kind of baiting that we're talking about, that goading from, from Gazelle as Stan like, what is it, dammit? Just show me, you know, that is what presses Hackman's character to investigate this a little more and then, you know, kind of drives him crazy. But I just love their, their chemistry their dichotomy so much. And one of the perhaps the moment of the film is that little look that they give each other that convention the best moment, you know? Stan Yeah. Stan works for Henry Ford, Gene Hackman, he works for him. And because Stan isn't very happy with how Harry's running his shop here, Standish goes and moonlights for competition and I hadn't seen this movie in a while. I thought that moonlighting, like, two convention scenes, like, oh, maybe it's like a week later, like, it's like, the same fucking night. Yeah. They were working together earlier. The day it happens. Like, I'm not telling you what this look like, what they're talking about, this recording. Shut up, do your job. Just want a fat recording. So, Gazelle, even though he doesn't communicate, this is basically like, fuck you. I'm going to your biggest competition. Bye. And that look that they give each other, I mean, he's like, Hi, Harry. It's so simple to him, but he's saying, like, you don't want to give me respect. I'll go to your competition. I don't give a shit. And Hackman is just like, shortstop, got it into silence. And he's like, and then that's only like halfway through the movie so we still have this very tense relationship with him. But that's I mean, that is that's those seeing the movie. And you really have to watch for two words. Hi, Harry. It's like, oh, my God. And right after that, like, you're right. There's a there's a sure fire. Fuck you from Cazale to Hackman for that. But then you know, Cazale is a very loyal guy. He doesn't want to work for anyone else. Correct. So like in Hackman, you're is so like stunned by this, and he just asks him he's like, how long you been working for Moran here? And you see this like like Payne in regret when he just looks Adam you can barely look him in the eyes. He's like, yesterday, like, I just got this job yesterday. It is as like as a result, because of the way that he treated him and all of this, like he doesn't want to be in this position. If Gene Hackman, his character, just opened up to him, they could work together. But he's like, but I can't do that with you. You won't let me do that. So I got to go find other things here because, you know, there's just so much there and you feel for him in that tiny moment. There's not a lot of dialog, but you understand it's oh, that's what he was the best at. Yeah. And just folks, just go watch this movie. The other four are a little more popular, but this is a really, really good movie. I appreciated it a lot more now because I understand everything you're doing, like the technology of it. I understand you know, when I was a kid watching this, I didn't know like audio recording thinking, you know, how to hide mics. And now I'm watching the way that he, like, syncs all the tracks together. It's Coppola financed this himself. For not a lot of money. It kind of feels like that. It feels like an indie movie. It's not a lot of, like, sets of set pieces, but yes, I just I really enjoy this movie and I enjoy Hackman's very understated performance. Yeah. And then Gazelle really matched him. Yeah. Also, it's great. As I mentioned, reading Mario Puzo's, The Godfather made me appreciate the movies even more because very little from The Godfather Part two is actually in the book. It's basically just that backstory of the Don fleeing Italy to New York. That's all there. But Fredo betrayal, Cuba, Hyman Roth, that's all Copeland Puzo in the screenplay. Wow. So my point is after working with junkies, they want to movies. Coppola feels confident that he can seriously expand this character way beyond what is in the source text. And what we're ultimately left with is one of the great screen performances in all of film, not screen performances of John Gazelles career, not screen performances of the Seventies, talking, ever talking to Fredo Corleone. Godfather Part two is absolutely iconic because the driving force of this movie is who in the hell would have the Stones to try to assassinate Michael Corleone in his house with his wife present? Michael being Michael, he maintains his cool. He goes to different countries. He handles business. But we know that as soon as he find out, as soon as he fingers who did this, that Faulkner's dead and then, you know, it's Occam's razor. The simplest explanation is usually the best one. And I know it was you, Fredo. You broke my heart. So we learn of Fritos, great deception, and wow. I mean, we're talking about screen chemistry and Pacino and him just deliver all the time work here. And I really think this is as good as acting gets. Yeah. The chemistry between Pacino and Cazale is it's got to be one of the best acting duo combinations. Because they've worked together so frequently, because they also do theater together. Like, so, so much of John Casillas career, too. All of this came from the theater. He was doing it even to kind of even rewind a little bit like he got The Godfather because they were having trouble casting Fredo. That's right. And someone was like, you got to see this play. And they did not try to sell John Cazale. They're like, just go see it. And instantly they were like, That's him. So his work spoke for itself and it wasn't on a recommendation, but Al Pacino in him would work many, many times together. And Al Pacino is credit him as saying that he learned more about acting from John than anyone else. So watching the two of them go at it in the way they do in this movie and others, but talking about this one, if you like, there's some scenes that were are just iconic movie scenes. And the first one I kind of want to talk about is, is the one where they're having lunch. Oh, that's the banana daiquiri. Yes, that's my first one. I he goes, How do you order banana daiquiri? And that I mean, I'm sorry to interrupt, but just why don't we do this earlier? You spend time. Yeah. It's all right. They're like, fuck, if we would have connected earlier, I wouldn't have tried to kill you. And but no, that's exactly right. And and, you know, and he's talking to him because Michael, up until that point, maybe more than anyone, and it's very, very subtle, but Michael has a very, very big soft spot for Fredo. He closes himself off to everyone else, but is always sort of like, where's Fredo? I want to talk to Fredo. And this is like the one scene where Michael's character even remotely has like a little break from anything, and he just wants to go and talk to Fredo. And, you know, Fredo is you watch his body language is he's fidgeting. He's not really sure of what to do because he's hiding something that he has a lot of guilt about. And yet him and Michael are communicating as brothers and he feels like he can express himself. You know, he's like, they should have done what you did, you know, get a get a girl like you know, he's feeling doubts about himself and then talking about like he grabs on to his arm, is telling him about like the way he grew up with mom, saying that you know, he feels like his mom always said we should have left you at a doorstep. Yeah. You know, and and Michael, you know, consoles him and then hear that line you're talking about where he's like, why don't we talk like this before? You don't know what that line actually means. And so you find out what happens or what's going to happen. But that's really exactly that. It's like, why weren't we this close ever? Why why are you just now talking to me the way that I needed you to before I fucked up and did this? And he even says it, he even fucking says it is even just sort of like. I was real mad at you, Mikey. I was real mad. Yeah. And you're like, what? What are you like? He can't say it, but he's he's dropping all of these things in. Oh, my God. Just watching him fumble through and deal with all of those things. Because he goes from one to another to another to another. They're all so fully lived. It's brilliant. It's. It's a master class in acting that one scene. And then the next one. Yeah, you touched on it, too, because the first time you're watching this, maybe even the first couple of times because like, you know, godfather to kind of dance. But the first few times you're watching this, you don't underst you don't know that Fred is the one who's betrayed him. Yeah. And you're seeing Michael kind of maybe figure this out in the moment like huh? And it almost makes you wonder, like, what if radar right there is like, it was me, man. I'm sorry. It was me. Like, what if he just comes out levels with him right there as opposed to drunkenly slipping up? Oh, Johnny told me. Oh, yeah, Johnny, you know we're here. Yeah, you're Johnny, by the way, Uncle Jun from The Sopranos there, when he drops that, and then you see Michael catch, like, oh, my God. Yeah, it was. It was him. He broke my heart. So. Yeah, so then I honestly don't know how to qualify this. We've talked about some tremendous scenes in film history on the show, a scene of equal weight to just about any scene that I've ever seen in a movie is the argument between Al Pacino and John Cazale in The Godfather two. It's one of the single greatest scenes in movie history. It's a master class of everything staging, editing, composition, and certainly acting. It's devastating in the way Gizzle uses that chair. It's just it's like a character just leaning into it back, pushing into it. The moment of his career is that explosion. It's I'm not going to yell. I'm smart. I'm not dumb. Like everyone says, the yeah, it is a huge I don't know why it's a huge emotional trigger point for me in movies when dim characters acknowledge that they're not that smart. Forrest Gump, like that movie has at least one shattering, devastating moment when he sees his son for the first time. And he just asked Robin Wright, like, what is is he is he smart? Yeah. And he's just saying like, you know, please don't tell me this boy is like me. Please tell me. And that. And to hear him say that, like, I'm not dumb, like Fredo, sorry, dude. You are dumb like you are. And I'm not dumb. Like people say I'm smart you know, and just Pacino never raising his voice below like the lowest octave. Like, it's not the way Pop wanted it. And what a scene, huh? When characters reveal themselves exactly what you're saying so unapologetically and so vulnerably where they admit these these faults about themselves or these realizations but I think what makes that payoff so good is that for two movies, you're watching a guy as hard as he can prove that he's not that and and stride, and he does whatever he can to the point of betraying his brother to just be something that he wants to be that proves everyone wrong. So for two full, well, really well-done movies, you've got this character who is bearing in all of this and doing whatever he can to never have that surface. And then he he reveals it in this scene. I think that's a big part of why it's so powerful, but it also speaks to exactly what you're talking about, the writing and everything of this scene, because Coppola's idea of putting Cazale in a chair to deliver all of this, oh, that's what makes Cazale so breathtaking to watch, is his choices. Like if that was his choice you can see him in the way he plays every scene, the choices that he makes, but even when he's not talking like the little physical things that he does, but that's such an extreme choice. Because you could film that any way like you could. The choice could be if you're Fredo, that, you know, Michael is coming to see you, you want to stand up for yourself. Yeah. Like, you know that this is happening. You know, you've got something you want to say. And that would have made sense. That would actually be in the program. Jitters of what the scene is a choice that makes sense. But to look at a chair and that chair, it's not even a chair. It's like a I don't know what the hell here is like a shameful and. Yeah, yeah. Like, very hard to move in. But honestly, if you think about it, like, if you're an actor giving yourself those obstacles, how am I even going to make a point when I'm sprawled out like this? And that's what you see him do, his hands going everywhere in the corner. He's trying to you know, he's trying to even like when he's trying to say I'm smart, he's trying to actually pick himself up out of the chair, but he can't because it's so awkward. But that's how much it means to him to make that point. So it's just it's so, so oh, my God, that Cher is what makes the scene. It is. It is. And it's and I mean, you have Gordon Willis shooting which one of the best DP's ever. But that is you have to look at the angles they pick because there's not a lot of cutting and there's not a lot of coverage. Like they didn't set up the camera in a bunch of different places to cut, cut, cut, cut, cut. It's very, very simple. It's really inspiring. It's really, really inspiring. And there's one of the great scenes in the history of film. I love that after he explodes with all of that, he like his body collapses back into the chair. So it's almost is like that was everything he had. And then when Michael says, You're dead to me and all that, he remains is. So it's not even like that hurt him. It was getting that out that fucking killed him and he's just down now and then. It's just Michael putting it all on top of him, and he just takes it because he doesn't do anything. He just lays there and takes it. That's something you don't think you actually make a choice about if you're an actor, I think that's a situation where that moment has taken you there and you're like, I got nothing. I gig that was in it. So so beautiful and so sad. Oh, so good. It really is. And the rest of their story plays out in a very, you know, Shakespearean, tragic way. But then I forget you get that little nice little button at the end. And it's that flashback to, you know, the Don's birthday, and Michael's just joined the military. And there's that great moment of you're back to carefree Fredo, so. Oh, Mike, that's great. I'm worried. He goes to shake his hand and Jimmy can, you know, pushes it away. So it's just yeah, it's a great way to end Cazale contribution to the Godfather series and wow, what what a performance. And now we're getting into a pretty tough field in 1974 best supporting actor we have Michael Bigelow Lee Strasberg the great Lee Strasberg and De Niro are all nominated for part two De Niro wins the Oscar the other nominees Fred Astaire for The Towering Inferno, Jeff Bridges for Thunderbolt and Lightfoot. I guess it would be odd to nominate four actors from the same movie, but whether book Israel should be here and whether he replaces Gonzo or is there fine. I would have nominated Cazale for this and I would have had him winning. No bullshit oh wow. That's. Yeah, I'm not taking anything away from De Niro. Like, Come on, De Niro. But I think John Cazale in this is one of the it's one of the best actor performances I've ever seen. Godfather Part two Oof! And dude, I can't disagree a thing about a 100% nomination. Take someone out of there either whether it's Strasberg or Gottlieb. Strasberg made. He got it. I mean, it's like, you know, he doesn't act much. He's taught all these titans. I love that. They gave him a damn. Fred Astaire in the Towering Inferno that whatever. Yeah. And it because it truly is. Because it's almost like the scene that's known from The Godfather Part two if you kind of boiled down Godfather part two. I think the thing that everyone thinks about is maybe I'm wrong, but I think it's the kind of boiling point is like, oh, that's where Michael kills Fredo at that moment. But The Godfather in its series has so much going on. Yeah, that's that legacy, though. Like, that's that's what he meant to that movie. And it wouldn't have worked if he wasn't as good as he was. Completely agree. I think the coolest thing about researching this podcast was I've never in my life watched The Godfather two and then Dog Day Afternoon back to back, just because of the way this career is laid out. I did that. What a juxtaposition between him and Pacino in those two roles, where in Godfather to Pacino, barely raises his voice. I mean, he doesn't a few scenes, you know, the the abortion argument and then but with Gazelle, he never really raises his voice. You know, we're talking about chemistry here. You watch these movies back to back and they essentially switch roles. Pacino So reserved and calculating is Michael Corleone. And then he's a complete spaz as Sonny in Dog Day and in Dog Day afternoon, John Cazale plays Sal, and he doesn't say a lot here. He's the guy you got to keep your eye on. You know, someone as spastic as Pacino is here. He has a lot to show, but the strong, silent type is the person you have to watch out for. And this is my favorite Al Pacino performance. And I know we're not here to talk about him, but this is also a very big Pacino performance, and that's hard to play off of and for. I saw this movie for the first time, very young from the first time I saw it till this week. When I watch it again, I never once thought that Al Pacino's character was going to hurt someone in the movie. But every time Sal gives a warning, I absolutely think he's half a second away from pulling the trigger on that semiautomatic machine gun. I mean, when he looks at Pacino and he's like, know, I'm I'm ready to do it, like, I'm ready to kill people, you fucking believe that? And this is 22 minutes into the movie. So that sets this dangerous tone of like so this one who's kind of running around or crazy. I, I think he's like, he's going to be OK. You just want some money. This other partner here who's like, in that suit, he's got this crazy fucking hair. What a great performance. So speaking of the juxtaposition of the two, Pacino and Cazale working together, it's a switch in power. It's, you know, Michael has all the power in The Godfather and Fredo has none and feels that. And this I really would say that, that Sal has the power because because Sonny's freaking out the whole entire time. And yet whenever Sal commands something from Sonny, Sonny listens and there's also this mystery behind him. Like, you don't know who this guy is. You don't know where he's come from. You don't know how really they're friends because you learn all about Al Pacino's character throughout the movie. I never really find out about this guy. And I think with the the benefit and pleasure in acting that is you get to create that. Because every scene that John has in this is a different expression of something about this guy. In Canada. Sam Rockwell, you brought him up earlier. When he talks about his eyes, you can watch The Godfather and the conversation and The Deer Hunter and you will see a very, very different set of eyes being portrayed in front of you by John Cazale. His eyes completely change I don't know how that's even done. I don't even know if it's necessarily a conscious thing. I think it's just a sort of a complete embodiment in the physicality of the character that you're playing, that that just changes and you don't really even there's not like a tool or like, oh, as an actor, I'm going to go and change my eyes I think it's just a full on embodiment of physicality, and that just translates. And there's something in those eyes that when that character is looking at you, Oh God, you're right, you don't know what he's going to do. And yet he's so sensitive and aware to everything that's going on. I think my favorite moment of it is when they're over here in the radio that the the reporters listen. As homosexuals have taken over the bank yeah. And you can tell he's offended, but there's also like two ways you play that, like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, I'm not a homosexual. But the way he actually it's almost innocent is like, I'm not a homosexual. Yeah. He's like, wait, can you can you tell them that then? I'm not like, that's what you're concerned about. So right now, that's what's on your mind. Yeah. And and it's just sort of like. But that's going to be on the TV, like, they're people don't like. That's not me. And it's such an innocent type of request. Like, can we just tell him not to do that? Whereas, like, the, like, especially at that time period, the macho way would be like, you got to tell them. They can't say that. Take it back. We're not that. I'm not that. But you wouldn't have expected that character to react in that way. A beautiful choice. Just a beautiful, beautiful choice. It's it's a shockingly progressive movie. I mean, I remember seeing this when I was ten, and I never heard of I never in a mainstream movie heard people talking about trans characters in 1975 this I mean Al Pacino playing a gay guy is like what a married married to a woman gay guy is the doors that this movie kind of shattered open is really really something and this is another one I watch the commentary for Sidney Lumet also great at directors commentaries. I love two things I call it the Wyoming line was improvised. Yeah. How the hell you come up with that and just stay in it because it's not funny he's not kidding he's not kidding at all in Pacino no support. No this who boy this poor guy. And then just 11 little quote I wrote that Lumet said about Cazale. He has a tremendous sadness to him. I don't know where it came from, but wow. Is it there? It's in this in The Godfather, too. Also and that was he. He just saw that there was this sadness to that he was putting into these characters that that he couldn't direct him to. Like he brought that he it's what you're talking about, like the changing of the eyes. Oh, my God. Just the contradictory nature of them, how he's like this health nut. Apparently and then they're like, OK, you know, but you're robbing banks. It's oh, man. It's a tremendous performance. And his biggest in terms of screen time, this is probably the most he's actually on screen in a single movie. One thing I want to kind of say about it, too, is like talking about when you when you finally recognize this guy and start to notice him, watch him all the time, like watch what he's doing when he's not the focal point, too. It's so charged and so invested, his physicality the way he moves what he's doing when he's he's not trying to steal focus is being used as being. Exactly. And that's was captivating. And there's also something about injecting humor into the characters that you're playing, even when something's because you're right, the Wyoming line is not funny. It's funny to us. But he doesn't mean it. It's funny to us. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But there is like he's not afraid. Like there's that one thing where they first get in and they're robbing the bank and they can't see each other between the pillars. Oh, then they're both, like, going from side to side like that, too, as an actor to allow that moment to happen, because it's not not there's nothing funny about it, but we're getting stuck right here. It's a trust that you have that no matter where you're going to go with your scene, partner, maybe no one ever meant for something to be funny. Maybe no one ever meant. But this was the place that we truthfully found ourselves to not deny it and to actually go in towards it and deal with it and let it be however it's going to turn out. That's when you get those moments are like some never supposed to be funny, but that is kind of funny. But that's sometimes how life is. If you're robbing a bank and you don't know what you're doing, you know that, that that shit happens. And to let it. He is so specific in his choices, but he's also so smart to allow for whatever is going to happen to happen and go in towards that end. Lumet talks a lot about that, about how Lumet famously rehearsed his movies as much as he could. I mean, for weeks. And he's like and he says, we rehearse it. You know, we're in a room. It's all the it's all the actors. But when you get to the space, that's when you're doing, you know, your final rehearsal because here's a space. And they discovered that pillar thing pretty quickly and they just used it. And, you know, Pacino unable to open the box and he's fumbling with the box. And that was just on the first take. And he didn't mean to do that. Lumet said, You're doing that in every take, every subsequent take, whether you mean to or not. So go for it. It's just it's leaning into those accidents and giving, you know, really good appreciation for these performances. In that vein, this is Gonzalo's biggest performance in terms of screen time. So we get to 1975 supporting actor. I actually think this is the most egregious snub of his career only because The Godfather two you already had three pretty big heavy hitters with nominations in there. So I don't know if he could have snuck in but let me run this down. We have Brad Duff one Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. Great work Burgess Meredith de la Locus Chris Sarandon for Dog Day afternoon Jack Warden for shampoo George Burns wins for the Sunshine Boys what the fuck? Gazelle is better than all of them. Yeah, I don't even know like how two George Burns the Sunshine Boys is like, it's funny, like, cool. But this is I get why Chris Sarandon was nominated because of the just how politically hot button that performance was in that character. But the fact that John Gazelle was not nominated here is completely and utterly asinine. It makes no sense. So as we said in our intros, it's I love that you said that his last movie was the one that kind of opens you up to him because it was for me, too. And we have talked a lot about on this podcast, Focal Point by doing something in the background and not doing too much. And then it's never more present than what he's doing his stosh in the Deer Hunter because he is always doing something. Part of that is because well, let me just start beginning. It's early. 1977. Michael Cimino is casting his Vietnam War epic Deer The Deer Hunter, and everyone wants gazelle. And a small but essential role is stosh. But he has been diagnosed with terminal lung cancer and he's not going to live for much longer. His girlfriend, Meryl Streep, says she's not doing the movie unless John does. She was a young actress at the time. This was her first major role. Roberts in year old, puts up his insurance money to protect the film if John should pass away. That's crazy. And Cimino, the director, agrees to film all of Cazale scenes first, and he delivers an antagonistic, perfectly crass performance. As such, he's always doing something. Cimino is the type of guy who's like, very similar to Milos Forman and where cameras are on. We're going to do as many takes as I want mess up, improvise, do do something I don't care. Just be doing something and understand that I don't care about closeups. You all five of you guys, six of you guys assume you were always on camera through the whole thing. So in doing that, you see Gazelle like cleaning that silly ass gun of his or he's checking himself out in the mirror all the time. It's so yeah. Oh man. But Gazelle passes away March 13th, 1978. They're still filming the movie and the movie goes on to win. Best picture, best director Meryl Streep's nominated De Niro's nominated Christopher Walken win supporting actor. And the John Gazelle film Legacy is complete. Oh, man, I I think the thing that my biggest takeaway is they growing up in a blue collar town, seeing all of these guys, but particularly him I think truly expresses what those guys are really like because he's the guy that everyone kind of makes fun of. Takes himself very seriously, doesn't understand certain things, but everyone likes him. There's I don't know, you can't put your finger on it. There's just something to me about his character in this that just speaks so truthfully to that type of guy and to that type of world. I think that's my biggest take away from him in this, because everything that he does is just all bubbles around that idea. Of this type of person, kind of similar to the conversation in that way. What I was saying earlier about he's a certain type of guy. This conversation is kind of like this nerdy busybody and yet in here, he's the guy that like, I don't even have words. It's just it's just right on the money. I've exactly that life all of them are all of those guys. Like, all of them are we. If you have a group of guy friends, like those portrayals are not cookie cutter at all, but like I have an actual friend you know the George to the bartender like I have that guy. We a lot of us have the dark, serious foreboding Michael Robertson. You're a character in it, you know, and then a lot of us have the fucking goof that you don't really take seriously like Stosh, the guy who just sleeps around a lot. He's the town idiot, you know, he's whatever. He's going to go there. He's a boy. I got to love it where he's checking himself out. I love the emphasis on just checking himself out a lot to look at himself in the mirror when they when they knock off from work. I think it's actually, like, quite sad. Come out. It's no use. Yeah. So much that, you know, he's check himself out in the car window and they hold that for a really long time, you know, beautiful. He takes himself so seriously. So like Star takes himself. This dude thinks he's like the man of this town. And it's like, dude, you're staying here. You're working these other three, you're going to Vietnam. Like, you're not doing you're staying. You're working. And I'm glad you mentioned, like, the small town aspect. Like, my the reason why one of the main reasons I latch on to the Deer Hunter so young is that my dad grew up in a town like just like this western Pennsylvania. My dad's factory work in summers. So he's like, yeah, these guys, the guys who get off at 7 a.m. and they go to the bar and get drunk, and then they maybe they go home and take a nap before the wedding. Maybe they don't like. Yes. These are very, very specific. Well-drawn out characters. And, you know, it's the wedding scene. We just see this. I guess that's his girlfriend or his wife. It can be his wife. His girlfriend, yes. Grab your ass again. Oh, my God. It's so great. And then you get to that boot scene, right? The argument between them and Robert De Niro and I've had fights with friends. Friends I've been friends with for 20 years. We never thought about anything big or serious. But we thought about, like, articles of clothing just like that. Yeah. Like, look, man, you don't ever bring your shit out here. Like, I'm not carrying you. I'm sick of this. This is my last fucking hunting trip before I go off to war. Like, I'm not planes fucking game anymore. This stosh care. No, he's got his gun. This is Deuce. This is this is just mocking him. It's like, dude, so what are your best friends is about to go to war. Like, chill the fuck out. But he can't because that's not in this guy's constitution. It is a really really good performance. We're going to get into more scenes, but, I mean, tell me about that boot thing. It's what you just said it perfectly. And I actually one thing that I truly love is how in order to defend himself, he brings up the source subject to many guys, and it always goes to women. Yeah. It's like how many times do I fix you up? And you don't do anything like, you know, like, like we all, like, get laid or whatnot, but you don't you're the one guy, you know, so he's, like, really trying to cut to that button that's always going to upset. And he knows that we upset him the most. It's just such a immature macho power play to make from a guy that has no other leg to stand on about it and to and to watch DeNiro so stoic in, in, in not breaking to it and Cazale just crying just over and over, what can I do? And then finally kind of giving it up because it's sort of like, all right. And then was even better about that scene is that the friends that are watching it go back and forth, they're like, give him the boots, come on Mr. clean up. What's the matter with you? And then yeah, what's the matter with him then some guys are yeah. Took us out like you're out of line. I think even walking says you're out of line. It's it's so realistic of like a guy. It's like five, six guys. It's just a perfect, perfect scene. And the other scene that really rings true to me in Cazale is performance is when De Niro first comes back home, jumps on his back and he jumps on his back. But there's also this very, very real honest communication breakdown like they're so happy to see them, but they don't know what to say. What do you say? What do you say? Like, what do you say? Yes. Christopher Walken. What's going on? Yeah, and not only that, but, you know, he's like, yeah, nothing's changed. You're still doing the same thing because you go back to these blue collar towns and you ask how it's been. Oh, yeah. 20 years has gone by. It's still the same. Nothing's changed. You still doing this? Still doing that. And there's just like this void where you don't know. You no longer know how to relate to this person who was once a part of something so close, even war. I mean, you know, you leave for however long, but even when you come back, it's like we're not who we were before you left, and we've stayed the exact same. You've changed. But instead of actually being able to be honest about it, no one knows how to do that, especially guys like these. So it just breaks down into. Yeah, it's good to see you again. Like trying to force the way things used to be. That's, again, just honesty. This is an honest scene, an honest reaction. I just love it. So much. I love that little scene between him and De Niro at the bowling alley where they just kind of look at each other and it's like because I mean, stoushes, he's a loud mouth, he's arrogant, he's annoying. And he could say any number of things right there, but they just look at each other like, I get it, man. I'm glad you're home. I can't imagine what you've been through, but I'm happier here, even if I don't know how to say that out loud. Yeah. There's this tension in the movie when De Niro comes back that has been foreshadowed with stops like cleaning the gun. That little revolver he has. And he always, you know, he brings it out and then they go hunting and stash, you know, De Niro's out of the cabin and stash messes with Axel, and he starts pointing the gun at. Yeah, and we don't know if it's loaded or not. We I mean, you want to assume it's not. Nero comes in, and based on what he's been through in the war, it doesn't really like seeing six shooters just being kind of tossed around all playfully. And so it's like, mildly. Yeah. Like what? It's not loaded. And then he does. He checks it and shoots a fucking bullet through the roof and basically saying, like, it is loaded. And then this is the great scene from the Deer Hunter that no one talks about. He puts that gun to his fucking head and pulls the trigger. Yep. Takes all the bullets. One does a Russian roulette, spins that wheel, and he could fucking kill John disabled, like, right there. He could, but he has a six shot, and it's like everything is kind of been building up to that moment, at least in their in their lives. And, you know, we have to obviously the the chamber hits blank. Thank God it we gather it's a very quiet car ride home. They don't say anything when they get home. And then and then you know, you just bring it to that final scene of them all sitting around the table singing God Bless America. I was in tears during this final scene. I usually am in the end of the Deer Hunter now I'm watching it and I'm like, oh, so they're all singing this and they know that John Kasich is going to be dead soon like the actor in real life. So that just, you know, it it has a little more weight to it. It's like John Cassavetes when he made Love Streams, he knew he was going to die. He had kind of a an expiration on his life. So it's I don't know, it's very sad to watch, but there's there's there's finer final performance on screen for all of us to enjoy and marvel at. It's just an unbelievably talented, talented legacy. And, you know, we talked a lot about Specif X in the acting. And, you know, John Cazale, someone who meant a lot to me because as too young actors can't recommend watching these movies, just number one, the movies, these are all like five of it's like potentially arguably the greatest movies ever made. But watching him in it because you're going to be floored by all the acting across the board for all of these movies. But if you hone in on him, if you're a young actor, this is the one that you should watch because of everything he's doing. The specificity, the choices, the behavior, the chameleon like ability to be so different in each thing and and have the balls to fly under the radar like he did. Like we talked about in the beginning, like he's not the one who jumps at you, but at one point or another, you will take notice. And when you do, that's when the game has changed. And I think that's in a great way. That's his legacy. What's so cool when we do these profiles on actors is that, you know, I've seen all these movies many times, but I've never watched all five of them with the intention of just focusing on him. This one guy we did that with Amy Adams. Like I, I had never really thought too much about her performance in doubt. And then when I really watch that movie, it just focused on her. I was like, Holy shit, she's doing so much here. Same with John Cassavetes in Rosemary's Baby. I never watched Rosemary's Baby and just looked at him and I was like, Oh my God, when you do that, here, it reveals the movies to you in a different way. Not his characters, the entire movie. And I want to kind of hone in on this. The nature of his prep, which is talked about in this documentary, I Knew It Was You, which is an HBO documentary. This is a really cool documentary. And if you do want some Gazelle like further reading, I would honestly first recommend doing the director's commentaries for each of his films. Coppola. Lumet have so many nice things to say about Cazale. And then the cinematographer Vilmos Sigman does a great commentary for The Deer. Hunter taught me a lot about that movie, actually. So check this out. But there's a really cool documentary called I Know It Was You All About John Cazale, and you get a lot of interviews with people. The only negative thing I can say about this is that it's so damn short. I mean, you have Meryl Streep, Pacino, Hackman, De Niro, John Savage, Sam Rockwell, Steve Buscemi in we only get 39 minutes of footage like, come on, yeah. I don't know, there's a feature in there. We could have learned a little bit more. But, you know, I mean, this podcast is like way longer than 39 minutes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's that's just, but if you can find it, watch it. It's cool. Some of the, some of the like information, the facts that we've been saying about Gazelle here we got from the stock yeah. But yes, it's a legacy that just lives on and on and the reverence that everyone who speaks about him, including Gene Hackman, I mean Gene Hackman is in this documentary, Gene Hackman doesn't show up for too many documentaries, folks. And he just like lit up. Oh, God. Yeah, he would. Oh, man. He would just do this. And the the one thing from the I Knew It Was You documentary that I love was Al Pacino talking about how, like with John, you never knew where the acting ended or began. He was always in it. And it doesn't necessarily mean he was someone that, like, was in character 100% of the time. But it was anytime that you show up on set and you are getting ready and waiting, that's when it's all beginning. An improv is kind of formed. A energy is being created and and you go when it's there. And he's an actor's actor. And that's why this is very much, you know, hopefully for other young actors are listening. This is, this is the guy to to research. And with that, we're going to get right into what are you watching here? Who's going first? Yeah, whatever. Go. What are you watching? I'm going to be a little obvious here. Bear with me. Folks in Covered Francis Ford Coppola recut and rereleased The Godfather Part three with a much better title and a much better construction. It's now called The Godfather Coda. The death of Michael Corleone, released in the original was released in 1990. This recut was released in 2020. It's just a better movie. It really is. He did a good job with it. There are a few faults that editing cannot save, particularly in certain acting performances. But there this is cut more like the structure of the first film. It starts with the big event. It ends with a massacre. Pacino's all in here. Diane Keaton is game. Talia Shire, who, you know, Francis Ford Coppola sister might be better here than in parts one and two. Genuinely. Eli Wallach having a blast but then, of course, there's Andy Garcia, who steals every scene he's in as Sonny Corleone's bastard child. And Andy Garcia really kind of reminds me of young John Basil here. John Cazale is not this flamboyant as Andy Garcia is in this movie, but the young guy who, you know, Andy Garcia was not that well known in 1990. He'd been in the Untouchables and stuff, but he's really making a name for himself and he steals that movie. And you know there yes there are some glaring not really plot holes but just there are major logic leaps for these characters and some of the acting is just not that good. But there's definitely value to find in this movie and it's available to stream for free on Paramount plus right now and I don't know I watched Godfather one, Godfather two, I read the damn book. So I went, why not? Let's just I've never seen this code on it's recut, so let's do it. And it was it was worth my time definitely. And it is better than the 1990 original release so just check it out. Hell yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. If we're talking about master class in acting, which is what John Cazale gave in all of his performances, then I'm going to recommend a movie that I learned a lot from when I was starting out acting that is regarded as a master class in itself of film acting, and that's Kramer versus Kramer with Dustin Hoffman and Meryl Streep. You know, you watch that movie and you just watch what everyone's doing there and you just get it you learn a lot watching that movie about acting and you learn a lot from watching John Cazale and all of his performances. So check that one out if you want to have a further acting clinic. Yeah, clinic. There you go. Here's one for you, Dear Hunter. As we mentioned, wins best picture in 1978 about the Vietnam War. That is the main reason that's cited for Apocalypse Now not winning in 1979. Would you give it to Kramer Bruce Kramer. Which one or Apocalypse Now. I think I got to give Apocalypse Now. Yeah that's fair not to take anything away from Kramer's Kramer. It's a no no discussion it's like Raging Bull or Ordinary People the next year, you know. Yeah, exactly. The reverse. Kramer is a really good movie. It's a really good. But when you look at everything that went into Apocalypse now, I think it's yeah, sort of like crazy. Yeah. It didn't win. John Zale, you're missed. You've been missed. Michael K Williams, you're missed. Norm Macdonald, you are missed. Three legends. I'm glad we got to talk about him. I'm just if you watch a John Gazelle film, which, you know, people watch these movies all the time, let us know if you just focus on him. We want to know like cool new shit. You found w aiw underscore podcast on Twitter for Nick those too. I'm Alex Withrow. Thanks for listening and happy watching Hey everyone. Thanks again for listening. You can watch my films and read my movie blog at Alex Witherow dot com. Nicholas Stoessel dot com is where you can find all of Nick's film work. If you have any questions or comments, please email us at what are you watching? Podcast at gmail.com. And of course, you can find us on Twitter at WFYI W Underscore Podcast. Next time we're going to get ready for the French Dispatch by diving deep into the career of Wes Anderson. Stay tuned.