What Are You Watching?

32: Five Films that Inspired Alex to Direct

June 10, 2021 Alex Withrow & Nick Dostal
What Are You Watching?
32: Five Films that Inspired Alex to Direct
Show Notes Transcript

Nick interviews Alex about the movies that inspired Alex to become a filmmaker. Alex discusses his lifetime obsession with film, using trauma as a creative launching point, learning how to direct from movies, and why “Antwone Fisher” may be the most important movie of his life. Let us know what films inspire you on Twitter @WAYW_Podcast.
Watch Alex's films at http://alexwithrow.com/
Watch Nick's films at https://www.nicholasdostal.com/
Tell us what you're watching at whatareyouwatchingpodcast@gmail.com

Hey, everyone. Welcome to. What are you watching? I'm Alex with and I'm joined, as always, by my best friend Nick Durst. How are you doing there, Vince Vega? I once again, honored to be here. Great. So last time we listened to you break down the movies, that inspired you to direct. Taught you about directing. It was a lot of fun so far. Our final episode in person together here for who knows how long we're going to turn it to me now. And I'm going to tell people the movies that made me want to direct. And it was really difficult to whittle this down to five. And I tried to keep very specific reasons why I chose them. But yeah, I'm really excited for this. Yeah, man, this is going to be really cool. And seeing that your picks that are on here, I love and I also know like a lot of personal reasons as to why, but it'll be great to hear you talk about them from how it was an inspiration. And I guess I'm just curious because what age did you know that you were going to be a filmmaker? This is no exaggeration, cognitive thought. So when winner your first memories three or four, I was quoting movies by then. I was acting them out. I was setting up shots with still cameras that replicated movies. I was positioning people and telling them where to go. I do not have a single memory or thought in my head in which I wasn't obsessed with movies. I do not know how to explain this. Can I just know that for whatever reason, I found my thing at such a young age and I identified with it so early and everyone around me knew it. So my parents I've identified now were definitely movie buffs. Like they watched more movies than your average person. My dad, like, still knows his movies. Like, my dad's really, really good about movies, and my mom loved movies, too. So that kind of rubs off on you. But when they understood and acknowledged that this was not I don't just love movies, I was obsessed with them, and I knew that I wanted to be involved in that business in some capacity. And I've done that forever that that's what I wanted to do. So when they, again, had a really young age, started letting me watch whatever I wanted because I was getting informed action from them. And I mean, I was just sitting there like right next to the TV taking notes for movies like an eight or nine year old should not be watching. And the notes I'm taking are like, how did they do that? Because this is all pre-Internet. You know, I'd read an interview with Scorsese and he would mention another director, and I would do whatever I could to find stuff from that director. But I grew up in a very small town, had a population of 700. That's it. And I was always obsessed with movies and always obsessed with seeing a larger part of the world. So yeah, they have always been my thing. And I, I don't know, it is the defining thing about me that I am completely and utterly obsessed with movies and everyone who knows the slightest thing about me will attest to that. Yeah, I can agree. I can agree. It's I usually if someone's asking about you that doesn't know you, I usually say the same thing. Where I go is the most knowledgeable person that I or you will ever meet. When it comes to film. And I don't, I don't know, like, because here's the thing. If something involving a movie enters my brain, it does not know how to leave. But if you ask me, I'm not even talking about complex math. I mean, like basic math, forget about it. It's I mean, I can, like, add and subtract, like, kind of but I'm the over calculator on my phone, too. But it's it's a no go. Learning foreign languages, unfortunately, has always been very difficult for me, which sucks because I'm very shortly going to marry a bilingual person who speaks Spanish. So I've been like dying to try to learn Spanish, but it doesn't my I cannot memorize that stuff the way that I can of like some of the movies we're going to talk about here. I know the timestamps of them. I don't know why. I know that that doesn't really serve me in any way, but it does serve me as a director. Yeah. I mean, it doesn't serve like my day to day, but when I'm behind a camera or behind a computer writing or editing, that is what services me. Because if people watch my stuff, one of the first questions people always ask is Where is your film school? And I'm like, I didn't I didn't have the grades to get into a good film school because, you know, there's a decent student. But I was just always so focused with movies. So it was a total DIY, learn how to do it. And from a very young age, I was watching movies going, I'm going to do something like that one day. That's what I want to do. And that's kind of what we're going to talk about. Absolutely. And, you know, I've told this to you. You were born to do this. You were born to be a filmmaker. And I'm just going to share one little story before we get into this, because this is a good story. Actually. This is this is the first time that we ever met, OK? Was your first full length movie was premiering at a festival, and there were a bunch of actors in the movie that I went to class with. Yeah. So I put my pride aside and I was like, you know what? I'm going to go and see this fucking movie. I'm going to go and support my friends. And I'm sitting there and I get the program and there's a bunch of other short films before yours. And I even look at the time of your movie, and I was like, 79 minutes. 72 minutes? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Like 72 isn't even a real fucking movie. And fair. Point. And, and. The movie starts and I watched a beautiful full piece of filmmaking in a way that spoke to me that I was completely floored by. And that was wait. And I don't know, I think I just sort of, kind of understood what you were after as a filmmaker and what you were expressing and the ways that you put things together visually. For me, I was like, Oh, my God, oh, this is awesome. This is so, so cool. So I just wanted to share that because I think that just touches on what you do and like how people can receive your work. So in terms of your work, it all starts from, you know, where you get your ideas and where and where all of that happens. So the first movie on your list is Pulp Fiction by Quentin Tarantino. Yeah. And I think, you know, heads up some of the movies I'm going to talk about. I've reference on this podcast a lot, and that's because they're so important to me. But I'm going to try to talk about them in new ways. Some of them I don't think I've talked about much, but the reason why I'm highlighting this is because this was the first movie I saw that told a story out of order. It certainly wasn't the first movie to do that, but I saw this movie like the day it came out on video. So that's, you know, late 94, early 95. I was born in 85. So I'm a young guy and probably a young kid and probably should not be watching this stuff. But the rule in the household was if I watched something, if it was like really intense, this movie is pretty intense. I to watch it either with mom or dad and like ask questions. If I didn't understand something, then as I got a little older, it was if I watched something by myself and didn't understand, I had to go to them and ask questions. A great example that was on Platoon actually because I watch Platoon at a young age and didn't understand what those other guys were doing to the girl. And Charlie Sheen's like, you know, get away, get away. And they're like, What? You just blank? And he goes, You know, she's a fucking human being. And I didn't know what they were doing to her. So that's an example of I went and asked my dad, and then we had like an hour long conversation about the Vietnam War and what, you know. So that's just an example. But for Pulp Fiction, I'm watching it with my parents, and it's doing so many things that I didn't know you were allowed to do, which is something you said a lot in your episode, but that writing of you can revolve and come back and you there doesn't have to be a rule like you can kill off your lead and then bring him back in like the last 45 minutes. Like what? Why is this happening? Does this need to be happening? I don't get what this is. It was the first black movie that was a puzzle that I had to figure out. Also, the first movie I saw in which characters were not talking about something that had nothing to do with the plot because talking about like what a burger is called in a different country has nothing to do with anything, but it has everything to do with character. So it put forth to me that the writing, the script can be the star of a movie because it is the star of that movie. The screenplay is, and the character development can be the star of that script. Because what I just rewatched this movie three days ago, you know, it's an annual one. I got to watch it once a year and I was watching it this time with knowing that I was going to talk about it here. And I went, There's so much of this movie that has nothing to do with anything I'd even argue that most of his movies are plot lists. There's not. I mean, there are like through lines and stuff, but you're more worried about like, what are these people going to do? And like, what are they going to say? Because I'm so entertained by what they're saying. So that's what this taught me and inspired me to do that you can play with time, which is the main thing that starts my ideas for film is what is this? How is this going to be reflected? What is time going to do on this? It's always my main exercise, my main constraint, and then adding flavor in for character development. But just tell us a few things. I'm not really saying anything new that this movie influenced people for that reason. For those reasons, like there are a lot of us that that's the case for. But I was so young, I was like nine and knew that this the bar has been set. This is the bar film and it's still my second favorite film of all time, and it's, I think, the best screenplay ever written, and that's what it taught me. Writing and character development. What would you say is the best example that you have taken from Pulp Fiction that you have put into any of your work? Great question. Breaking things up into chapters. Sometimes those are explicitly on the screen, as they were for I'm Alive. He writes his screenplays like novels. He's very open about that and going jumping back and forth in the narrative and having it make sense at the end. That's definitely something that I use. I did that and wait, that is something that that I draw from that the most and try to inject humor into your dialog because that is still the funniest movie I've ever seen. And people look at me like I'm crazy when I say that, but I go, No, I mean, I was in stitches watching it three days ago, and I would I was watching this at age ten, and when Hugo which one? There's two Monroe's and he's like, No, there's not. That is man on the road, that is me or that I don't I don't see it must be her night off. I was hysterical, like age ten. He's throwing this away like, I don't know. It must be her night off. I don't know. It just it really, really stuck out to me. So trying to inject humor without going for the joke is what's funny because Vincent Vega is not a funny guy, but he's fucking hilarious. The stuff that he says into action, moving in the face like he's dead serious when he says that, but it's so funny the way. So those are the things I still carry from it. In one thing I was kind of throw about Clinton that's just so great is something that I think he would talk about too, is that if it's funny to him, he puts it in. Yeah, like he, he puts in what he wants to like his flavor, his humor, his this, his that. Fortunately, it works so well for him. But that's just a good lesson for any filmmaker. Yeah. It's just throw your stuff in and it'll catch. All right. Moving on to your next I know this one so well, but Steven Soderbergh's traffic. So Steven Soderbergh is as a diehard film fan, a question we get a lot. Who's your favorite director? What's your favorite movie? And one of the reasons I go to Soderbergh a lot because what this movie taught me. Oh, man. So again, we have very specific, well-defined chapters three and you're you're intercutting them. So that was a really cool concept to me that I'd seen before, but I never seen it done that well. But I had seen it done before. What I had never seen done before is to make those chapters look different visually, whether it's with colored filters, moving the camera in a different way. And I identified. So I'm seeing this in 2000, so I'm like 15. So I identified within 10 minutes like, Oh my God, I've never whatever this cinematographer is doing, like I get, oh, so now I just know where in Mexico because of how it looks. And now we're in San Diego because it's oversaturated and the way that like, you know, Catherine Zeta Jones is a San Diego storyline, so hers is it's very overexposed and oversaturated. But then like she'll appear in the Mexican segment with Benjamin Bratt, but it's still got the Mexico colors, seeing all of that and this revolving flow of it. Oh man. It just, it inspired me so much. And he was Soderbergh was not shooting those on like I don't want to say their consumer grade, but he was actively trying to make the quality look less. I mean, you know, when they were printing it from the film labs and everything, they're adding all this crazy color and green. So taught me a lot about cinema orthography. And then when you're watching traffic and you find, you know, I'm watching it and the credits come up and it says Cinematography by Peter Andrews. So I'm like, Who the hell is this? Look him up. And I'm like, Oh, he shot a few Steven Soderbergh movies. And I come to find out that that is him. It's a pseudonym for Steven Soderbergh, and a lot of his movies don't Traffic. He edits himself under the pseudonym Mary and Bernard. And right then I went. I knew I have to teach myself as much as possible about filmmaking. It cannot just be. I want to be a director. If there is a skill to learn doing this, then I'm going to learn it and I'm going to push myself and the limits of it, because there is math and cinematography there is a little bit. So I kind of have to like teach myself that math, but that I can't say that I actively knew I wanted to be a cinematographer, but this really cemented that and I was picking up cameras using them all the time, and that's when I knew like, OK, if I can't find someone to shoot my stuff, I'll shoot myself, I'll edit it myself. Screw it. Well, that's to me one of the like your trademark in so in so many ways. And it's so beneficial because your overall vision for how you see your stories it happens because you see the whole way through. Like you're inspired, like you start with the writing, you know, but you're already knowing how you're going to edit things. Yeah, you're already understanding how you're going to do that and what that does. That's really awesome for when we're working together and, and I'm directing is that we don't waste time. Yeah, of. Course we know what the shot is and you're like, You know what? We don't need to get any more coverage because I know how we're going to edit this. Yeah. You're seeing like moves ahead of the chess game of how this is going to play out in the best way and being on film sets as an actor and seeing how slow the process can be. Sometimes when directors are like, All right, well, we're going to get coverage for this, we're going to get coverage for this, and we're going to see how it all works in the edit. Like, I understand that that's part of the system, but sometimes as a premiere said, what a fucking waste of time because you're you're planning for a different vision. You're planning to find the vision. So you need to do all the things you need to do to give you the most ammo you can have to go into that edit battle. But when you already know what that's going to be, all of that's cut out. Yeah. And you can just stay more time on the scene, more time with the actors and move on, get the shots and you know how that's going to go. Even when something's not working, you're like, You know what? This isn't working. Let's edit it like that. Yeah, and I learned a lot of that and continue to learn a lot of that from him. He unfortunately does not do director commentaries anymore, which is it's just it's such a shame because I have learned probably more from him than any other director in his commentaries he has Soderbergh has a very, like, no bullshit approach to stuff. And yes, it's all of, you know, learn how to do it. And then there's there can be an economy to filmmaking where you don't have to do all this crazy stuff. Like, I have been the cinematographer on movies, and I'm just thinking, man, if this this is my show, like if I was directing this, you're never going to use all this coverage. Like, this is crazy. So yeah, still, when I sit down to write something now when I'm writing a sentence, I am also writing as an editor going, OK, cool, I know how I'm going to match that with that, with that and I want to be careful because I don't know if my tone or something. I'm not saying because I have I have thought about the chess pieces and all that doesn't mean that it's like going to make for an amazing scene or an amazing movie. There are people who can watch my movies not like them. I've talked to a lot of them. That's OK. It doesn't mean that I'm like some genius filmmaker or just I'm just the dude who likes making art. That's all. That's all I'm saying. And these are the people who influenced me. So I learned that from him that, like, do it yourself. Yeah, that's something I really enjoy doing. Always open to learn more and always really craving finding people who know how to do it better than I do and learning from them. That's. Yeah, that's basically my whole gig is is not to turn it around too much to me, but just in the world of filmmaking, it's like the best piece of advice that I can ever give to a director is just know what you want. Yeah. Know how to communicate that and find the people who are way more skilled at that job. Yeah. And make sure they know what you want. And then the rest is kind of gravy. Then you're kind of like, everyone's doing what I said. Which is a really cool feeling, and the day will come and I'm actually looking forward to it. The day will come when I hire someone else to shoot a film of mine. I'm actually looking forward to it. I would always love to be my own camera operator because I love that. But to have someone, like, light something and, you know, be in charge of lighting would be great. I can't envision ever letting someone edit something. I shoot because that that to me is such an extension of the writing. It just it's so. It's so. I know exactly how long I want a moment to land on. But yeah, it's one of the great kind of joys of my life is knowing how to do this stuff and knowing that if I'm watching, I don't have the switch in my brain that shuts off when I'm watching something I don't. I can understand that if I'm putting on Godzilla versus Kong, I shouldn't expect cries and whispers from that. OK, that's fine. But I'm still watching it going, maybe I can learn something here and you can learn a lot from movies, even if it's I don't want to do that. Yeah, that's a huge part of it. Knowing what you don't want is just information which you do want. Yeah. Well, really quick before you move on to the next movie, because I would equate like with you like, like in comparison to another director, like you're most like Steven Soderbergh. So with all of these trades and skills that you have learned and are continuing to learn, like right now, what's your favorite, favorite part of all of that process? That's a good question. The hardest part of the filmmaking process is whichever one you're currently doing that's the answer. But the truth is the writing. The writing is the hard thing, and maybe it's important distinction that that is what Soderbergh does not do. He admitted after he wrote Sex, Lies and Videotape, it was a smash at one con, and then his next few movies were not really hits. And it's he has said it's because I was writing all of them and I realized I have to get out my I have to get out of my own way. Scorsese You realize the same thing to Scorsese. He has written a few screenplays, but a lot of his best work are ones that he didn't write. And you know, he wrote Casino and Goodfellas. So I take that with a grain of salt. Spielberg's the same way. You know, Spielberg has not written too many of his movies, and that is kind of the hardest part. It's hard for me to imagine someone giving me a script and saying, Can you direct this? Like, I don't know how I would. I would have to live with that script for like a year and go to, like, the actual places they're describing in it and like live it. So the writing is cool. Hitting the end on a draft is really great, but shooting something and getting getting that like dopamine rush when I know I have it. So a really good example. This is the fourth chapter of I'm Alive, the movie We made a wake you have kind of a long speech about a movie. You and your mom saw it together and I knew I was going to do that in one shot. And I told you that because it's really good to tell actors that beforehand. Like, I am not cutting away from this. So if you drop a line, it's OK, we're just starting over. I'm not going to torture you and make you go to the end because you have like a four minute long monologue and because I'm going to edit it, you know, we did takes one through three and it wasn't your fault. It's just sometimes in filmmaking, stuff happens. You're seen Partner was a nonprofessional actor and your timing was off a couple of times. And, you know, my dogs were in the background, so, you know, stuff happens. But when you hit the fourth take, which is one in the movie, I went, OK, we're done. That's it. So there's no greater rush or joy than knowing you have the take and knowing fucking hell. That's the one I'm going to use in editing. That's the biggest rush. I feel from this whole entire process. Editing is very, very difficult. It's very, very challenging. There are limitless options. It's very grueling. Your you are your own worst enemy. It takes as long as you let it take. It takes as short as you let it take. So it's a huge task. But yeah, it's really fulfilling to have all that kind of come together. I would say the thing I've gotten the most, like, accolades on from people and stuff would be my editing. People seem to kind of respond to that, but I don't know, it's tough. I the thing I get the most fulfillment from is probably the edit when we're sitting there editing it and knowing like our colors coming up. So we're almost done and sound mix. We're almost done. Yeah, that's really cool. And the worst part of the process is releasing it. That's the worst because the minute you release it, it is not yours anymore. And it took me a few movies to realize that. And I got into a very, very dark headspace after releasing a few movies because it's like, What's next? And that's the first question people ask. And it's, it's weird when you release something and whenever your intentions are with that movie or whatever you wanted it scene to mean, that don't mean shit once people get a hold of it because how they interpret it, I mean, I've gotten not in arguments, but people have watched my work and we've talked about it and they quote unquote knew that this meant this and I'm in my head like that is not what I meant at all. And I like tell them that nobody no, you definitely meant it. I'm like, Oh, man, I can't. So cool that that's what you're taking away from this. So the whole damn process is difficult, but releasing it is it's always very scary, very, very scary. And that's always going to happen. Like, you're always going to have people, which is what you want. You want people to have their own relationship to it. Yeah. But yeah, it is always strange when they tell you and they're like, I love when you did it because that's what you were going after. And you're like, No, but thank you. All right, next one up. I'm excited to hear about this one. Antwone Fisher by Denzel. Yeah, I thought it'd be I've kind of tiptoed around, like telling the Antwone Fisher story so I can keep it short, but I think I'll do it now. This movie came out in 2002. It was Denzel Washington's first directorial effort. It's a movie that means a whole lot to me. So what this movie taught me as a filmmaker was that not only is it OK to keep my stories personal, but it's necessary. And if I do that, then I can never be wrong. And what I mean about that is the best example for my filmmaking that I have of that is I am alive because that was the only movie I made where I was not nervous to release it. Even though that movie is a literal window into my soul and into my psyche because it's as autobiographical as we could get. But when I release that I knew that every single thing in that movie had happened in real life. So I told the truth. No one can watch that movie and come to me and go, Oh, that's bullshit. That didn't happen because it all happened. You can come to me and be like, I didn't like the way the focus stepped out right there. That's fine. Cool. Antwone Fisher is not a perfectly made movie. It's not. But it is so important to stick to what you know, because I am not the type of person who's going to call myself an expert in anything. The only thing that I know for certain that I am an expert in is my own experience, and I know what I've been through. And thank God for whatever reason I have learned or was born with knowing how to put a few words together on paper. So do that and if you stick to that, then cool. Like why? I like some movies about vampires. We just talked about from Dusk Till Dawn recently, like Coup de Sammy. I don't know how to do that. I don't know how to write that. So Antwone Fisher comes out toward the end of 2002 right around that time. One of my dear, dear friends, his name is Korn Travis. I've mentioned this on this podcast for he was six years old. He was a passenger in a car that it had to dry a piece of dry ice, and he was in an accident and he was in a coma and he died as a result of these injuries on New Year's Day. The accident was Christmas Day 22, and he died January one, 2003. Everything changes. It was it was absolutely fucking brutal. It was. And I say that with all due respect to his friends and family, because I wasn't I would never say that I was the person closest to him at the time. But we he was the only person in my life who got movies how I got them. And he was it's kind of like you in that way that he identified that I had this crazy wealth of knowledge. So he he was like a sponge. You would want to know, like, oh, tell me what to watch. Like, give me this recommendation. Give me this recommendation, and you know, he was so funny. He was so driven, he was so nice. And it was a real hit to the world. When Korn Travis died, it was they lost a really, really gentle soul, a 16 year old guy who did not know the definition of like teenage angst, just a great, great kid. And so it was awful. And this was the first movie I saw after that in the theater. So this movie is written by Antoine Fisher. And what he went through as a kid was he was born in prison because his mom was in prison. He never knew his dad. And he was a kid of the foster system. And he was subjected to some horrible abuses by foster parents, physical abuse, sexual abuse. He developed a really bad anger problem because of this. He got he joined the Navy and he cannot get control of his anger at all. And he's lashing out then with the help of a therapist played by Denzel Washington, he tries to kind of like understand himself, gain a sense of calm, try to reconnect with his family. This has nothing to do with me. This has nothing to do with my personal story at all. I've always been extremely close to both of my parents, but and this doesn't have to do with court necessarily, but I have been subjected ID to at that point in my life, a lifetime of childhood trauma at the hands of my brother. And it was not an easy household to grow up in. He was very complicated person. As I've said, he was manic depressive and paranoid schizophrenic. So I knew what it meant to be angry but not know why I did not put that together until Antwone Fisher. And I would never really describe myself as an angry person, but I could have like fits of anger and that sort of stuff. So I'm watching this movie and my world is just kind of like opening because what I'm seeing is this movie understands pain, and this movie is allowing this kid to have this pain and it's teaching me that, like, even if you've been through horrible stuff, you know, he says at one point, I'm still standing, I'm still strong, and I always will be. And so that meant a lot to me. It meant a whole lot to me seeing this down and out guy, like overcoming and getting the best of his life after going through this horrible kind of trauma, which is what I was in with Korn's loss and then, you know, I saw this movie with my dad for the first time, and we it was just one of those really cool situations where like 45 minutes into the movie, I leaned over and I was like, This movie's great. And he's like, It really is. And you just know, I still I really would love to have my dad as a guest on the podcast, but my dad's very specific person, he is with no hesitation. He is the kindest, sweetest most empathetic man I've ever met. And I was really lucky to be raised by him. And, you know, it's it's hard to lose a friend at age 16, 17. And he kind of took it upon himself without ever communicating this to me that he understood the importance of this movie. So like very shortly after seeing it, I found out that the real Antwone Fisher was going to be doing a book signing in Cleveland where he was born. So like, we just dropped everything and like, went up and did it, and it changed my life, you know, we're like fourth in line. And I'll never forget meeting him because at that point, like, he was my hero, and I told him that. And then I'll never forget driving home from that, the road trip back home from Cleveland. I remember looking at my dad, and he looked just, like, really happy. And I was like, What am I talking about, man? Like, that's my hero. Like, what kind of guy just, like, drops everything and takes his kid up to Cleveland for, like a five minute book signing. It's a really, really important movie for me. My dad and I, it's my best friend. We're extremely close. This is probably like our number one movie together as a filmmaker, as a human being. It just it taught me so, so much. And I am I'm so indebted to this movie, and I know I'm kind of like my voice is kind of cracking. It's tough because I just love it. And it means so much to me. So I wholeheartedly recommend that if you're listening to this and if you've seen it in the movie, maybe didn't do anything for you. If you want to go back and watch it and you want to watch Derek, Luke and Denzel Washington's office like screaming, you know, three sessions, right? That's correct. Can't be changed. That's correct. And he goes, Well, what do I do? Because I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do. And that was me saying that I just didn't really have anyone to listen. And man, it meant the world to me. That's probably the most personally meaningful movie of my lifetime. It really helped me understand a lot about myself and yeah, God, I just love it. Love it. And when you say that, like like what I hear you saying, too, when it comes to how that makes your style as a filmmaker, you take all of these things that happen in your life and you see how a movie reflects how you can hold on to. Like, you can grasp that a movie is connecting to you in a way that is helping you through a moment in your life, through like that's painful. Yes, traumatic. And I mean, that's what you do. Like, that's that's your like if you have a style like what you're after is to somehow express pain and that it's OK. And, but it needs to be fully experience right? Because how else can you help? How else can you, through your art, show people that there is hope? There's and that you're not alone because some of the movies I mean, so much of the movies that you that means so much to you are tough movies. Very yeah. They're very, very hard to process. A lot of people don't want to deal with them and that's fine but for the ones that do and understand that it's because there's a way to connect. There is a way to feel that everything is shitty as it is. You're still here, it's OK and you're not alone in it. So I think that's great. Thank you for sharing all that absolutely. And I'll move on. Another personal one is a sleeper. And this is also something I referenced on episode 13, actually a place to be on the Pines. I believe this was we added on. We tacked on like an additional What are you watching? So I could kind of explain this, another very personal one that like thematically cinematography, editing didn't really learn much from it. This all comes down to one line of this movie when Jason Patric describes Brad Pitt's character as now he moved and he lives quietly and alone. And when I heard that even at such a young age, I was like, That's the movie I want. Like, again, we're talking about childhood trauma here because the movie is about four characters who do something really dumb as kids in Hell's Kitchen, New York, and have to go to like a boys institution for a few years and are subjected to really awful brutalities. They're violent, physically violent, sexually violent. Then kind of out of nowhere, it just jumps and you jump ahead several years. And now we see these boys as men and I have always been fascinated, not necessarily with seeing the trauma, but I'm fascinated with how people react to trauma, especially if it's shared trauma, because they're all kind of different. Like Brad Pitt's this crazy kind of he's so focused on taking these guys down. He's become this lawyer. That's his mission in life. Jason Patrick is just kind of like, you know, it's all good and trying to live a modest life. Like, I work in newspaper, it's all good. And the other two are fucking killers. And I really always love that dichotomy of the shared trauma what to do with it. But he lives quietly and alone. I always latched onto that. And now, like, all my movies are really about that. They're about people who are essentially trying to get over the trauma that they've gone through, you know, and whether it's something that happened directly to them, like getting over a spouse who is died by suicide or getting over a breakup or a car accident or losing your brother and mom, you know, I don't even I'm Alive is a good example. Like, I didn't show my brother's suicide, but I make it clear this is what he's this trauma is going through. So that's what sleepers really taught me. And it's not the most again, not maybe the most polished movie, but I love everything about it. It's one of the best examples of showing what trauma does to a person and how they react to it and how in my very, very humble opinion, I'm not telling anyone how to live their lives. But if you have gone through something horrible and you are an adult, and you have never, I don't know, talked about it or dealt with it in any sort of way, whatever that means to you, I don't see that serving you any true benefit. That's just my belief so I do like dark movies. I like movies that understand pain. I don't like painful movies. There are a lot of those, but I like ones that understand it and understand that you kind of have to go through it directly. You can try to skirt around pain. Boy, that shit's going to catch up to you in some really, really funky ways, at least in my experience. So yeah, that's I got all that from Sleepers. Would you say that with that one line from Sleepers that connects with you so much that in your work when you write, if you could boil down your scripts to a sentence, do you try to do that? Is that something that like connects with you in a way where if you always need to be reminded of a home base, like throughout the whole entire, whether it's the writing, the edits, the shoe line, because we can all get lost like you, you know, you get so far into that forest, you can't see those trees. Do you find an anchor in a scene as in a line that connects you like that to your work? Yeah, I can. It really depends on the character and the specific story. But I when I set out to write something, I know very, very well who my characters are and like what they'll say and do. But I'm always trying to remind myself of let the characters show you who they are. Let's not talk about it a lot. Like let's have this work through with emotional expression. So I will always go to that. And I kind of learn that from Soderbergh as well, that you can cut out a lot of the fat, just like cut through the bullshit and let's get to get to know the person. But yeah, quietly and alone is something I try to like anchor a lot of stuff in. How is this person feeling about the shit they've gone through? It's awesome. Yeah. All right. Rounding it. Out, surprising someone. Surprising no one here is the Steve McQueen's 2011 shame. So this is the only movie on the list that I saw once. I was already a filmmaker because I started I mean, I was making movies like a camera very, very young, but actually like committing to it and doing it. It was a movie called Full Circle in 2008. But when I saw al-Qaim in December 2011 I was in pre-production on earrings which I was going to be filming in April 2012 and it was so similar to what you said about Sophia for somewhere when I watch Shame I hadn't really seen I knew what I wanted earrings to look like, how long I wanted to hold shots on the tone of it. But I was having a lot of trouble finding an example to go off of, and I was looking like, what's my kind of like blueprint here? What's, what can I go back to? And then there once it found me and I was it's still one of the most impactful movie watching moments of my life. I never seen a movie that spoke to my sentiment that much. And again, I always feel that's necessary. To kind of explain this. It's not the sex. It's about talk about experiencing past trauma and how you're dealing with it. Wherever the hell those two have been through, it is bad and it is messing with them. And very very specific ways. And I am fascinated by that. I think one of the reasons I'm so drawn to addiction movies is I think a lot of addiction is a way to deal with past trauma, not constructively, but it is kind of a way to numb that pain. And whether you're addicted to cocaine, heroin, sex, it's all as a way to distract him from what he's supposed to be dealing with. And then the sister comes home and that's the pain right there. And now you have to live in it and you do not have a choice. And I the way a story is told from the writing, the editing and the cinematography, that is the new bar for me. I love everything about the construction of that movie. It has my favorite montage, his kind of downfall montage at the end. It's my favorite montage in film. So when I watch that, I was in tears by the end of the movie, not because I was sad for the characters, but just because I knew like, Oh, OK, I'm not alone in this. I, I got to stick to the way that I want to make this movie and I want to make kind of a grim, down and out painful movie. And now this is giving me the permission to do that. So I'm going to do it. And that is my, it's a go to movie. That I go back to so, so often when I'm getting ready to write something, film something. So it's always in the back of my head. And that's probably honestly as an active filmmaker, probably the most influential movie over my current filmmaking. So if people want to know, like, why is this guy talk about this movie so much? That's why it means it has a language to it, a very unique language that is specific to it. And Steve McQueen that I identify with completely and I get everything that it is putting down. But and that's something that's so important for any artist because for like any other filmmakers that are listening, you've got to pay attention to what speaks to you. Like when you see another work from someone that is like, Yeah, that's my language that I speak that I understand that those are those keys, those blueprints, those are the ones that, that, that tell you that go forth with your ideas, right? And like use this as inspiration. What was really cool about this whole entire conversation is, you know, from someone for the way we started from you, basically knowing at birth that this was going to be what you were doing with your life to see these examples of these movies from technique to writing to personal experience and how you apply that to your work in the writing. Probably more specifically in that process. But even as the edit goes, it's cool to see how all of this is infused because I think with art, there's never like there's never, ever one way to do something, right? It's all this mixture. It's a big, giant collage of so many things and you in this conversation expressed all of what kind of sums you up as, as as a filmmaker. And sometimes it's cool to be able to kind of just step back and look at all of that and be like, Yeah, that's what, that's what I'm made up of. Like, that's and that's what I am trying to do next. Right? You know, and yeah, it's good to, to, to do that and to just get reminders to give yourself those reminders I mean. These lists for both of us could have gone on and on. And, you know, people who maybe fans of this podcast or my blog, they're like, oh, you know, you didn't mention Taxi Driver or Scorsese or Cassavetes. And yeah, that's all fair. It just I really wanted to focus on specific aspects of the movie that were drawn to like that writing personal storytelling. But these are five that I return to often and always will. And in with a life dedicated to film, it's really hard to pick the ones that inspire you the most or teach you the most. But yeah, these are all, of course, right up there. And if we're going to round it out to a What are you watching? Yes. What do you got for us? Well. The big director I'm not mentioning here, I don't even think I kind of glossed over cries and whispers. But Birdman is when I saw my first Birdman, which was the seventh SEAL, and didn't really know what to do with it. It was just it was so wild. But Persona is my pick today, which, you know, it's in my top ten of all time, top five. But that one I saw, I was like 22. That was a complete game changer. That showed me that you can reinvent cinema if you want in there. There does not have to be rules. And that is a really, really polished, talented filmmaker who made that in basically from its first frame to its last is kind of just a giant middle finger to people who want to critique his style or I didn't want to have this conversation without at least mentioning persona because that's when I go to a lot for break the rules. Birdman, he doesn't get enough credit for being a rule breaker. Fanning Alexander has some great gaps in logic that just work because it's like you go with it. So yeah, I can't end this conversation without mentioning Bergmann and why not persona. And to kind of round that out too, for my take for what are you watching here? I also went with a Bergman because Bergman was the director that you shined me onto. I mean, outside of like the individual movies you gave me, but you were like, watch Bergman. Yeah, like, immerse yourself. And I'm still on that journey because Bergman is tough. Yeah. But, you know, from everything that you expressed about some of these personal traumas and the pain, Bergman is exactly doing the exact same thing. Yes. He is exploring those areas with a unflinching and I've always said this but I mean this really well, I mean, it always feels like he's being very rough. He's very unhappy. I think it's good to be unapologetic, but there's not a lot of sensitivity a lot of times because there's tender moments. But then those will be cut right away with something so vicious I think in your work, you bring a little more sensitivity to it. But the Bergman is is 100% like someone that there is a reason why you recommended me to him. Yeah. And then there's a reason why you're recommending Bergman to the people out there right now. And the same thing I am I made Witten movie that I'm referencing or recommending is Crys in Whispers. Oh, great. Because I hate that movie. OK, God, that's like one of my favorites ever. I love that movie so much. But I hate it for all the right reasons, right? Because you recommended that movie to me. I watched it, and it just taught me so much because it there's a color of red that's being used in that movie that I don't think that there's a color on this earth that makes me more upset. I want to throw up when I see it. Yeah, it's so oh, it's not a maroon. It's not a I mean, I don't know how specific one has to be to get that exact color, but he is and it's painted on the walls. It's almost in every single shot for the most part. It just connects to the ugliness of this situation that's going on in this movie with these characters. These to just have the audacity to go forward in that it's so important. It's that permission just go just go do it. So the exercise of that movie is like an exercise of pain telling 90 minutes long. But yeah, that's one of the most painful movies I've ever seen and one of the most a very, very painful director. A lot of his movies did come from a place of hate and a horrible childhood at the hands of his father. I don't want to give anything away, but you're talking about that softness that he can have in the end of this movie is a great example of that, how you could end this movie any number of ways. And to do it the way he does is really nice and wholesome. But yeah, that's my second favorite. Bergman I love cries and Whispers. What does that say about me? So that's it. That was a lot of fun. It was fun to interview you. It was fun for you to interview me. And I was wondering if we would have any of the same movies it would have been cool if we did, but I love that we didn't. Yeah, that would have been that would have been cool. I suppose if there was one on the list that I wear that would have been mine would have been Pulp Fiction. Yeah. And mine on yours would have been somewhere. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that works. That works. All right. Well, if you've made a film and it's out there, I would love for you to send it to us and tell us like your influences of it because I'll check it out. You know, we will send it to us on Twitter W AIW Underscore Podcast. We love to check them out. But as always, thank you for listening and happy watching Hey, everyone, thanks again for listening. You can watch my films and read my movie blog at Alex Witherow dot com. Nicholas Coastal dot com is where you can find all of Nick's film work. If you have any questions or comments, please email us at What are you watching? Podcast at gmail.com. And of course, you can find us on Twitter at WFYI w underscore podcast guest. Next time, we're going to focus all of our attention on one film, David Fincher's 2007 Masterpiece Zodiac. How the hell did this movie land? Zero. Oscar Nominations. Stay tuned.