What Are You Watching?

26: Malcolm & Marie (2021)

March 25, 2021 Alex Withrow & Nick Dostal
What Are You Watching?
26: Malcolm & Marie (2021)
Show Notes Transcript

Nick and Alex do a deep dive on the exciting and controversial new Netflix film, “Malcolm & Marie.” The guys discuss Zendaya’s deserved praise, Hollywood nepotism, criticism vs. art, intentional cinematography, and the emergence of macaroni and cheese on film. Let us know if you dug “Malcolm and Marie” on Twitter @WAYW_Podcast.
Watch Alex's films at http://alexwithrow.com/
Watch Nick's films at https://www.nicholasdostal.com/
Tell us what you're watching at whatareyouwatchingpodcast@gmail.com

Hey, everyone, welcome to. What are you watching? I'm Alex with her and I'm joined, as always, by my best friend, Nick. So how are you doing there, Brutus? Excited to be here. Ides of March, asshole. That's saying that's a callback to our last episode in which we broke down the 20, 20, 2021 Oscar nominations. And at the end of that episode, we teased this episode that we are doing now, which is covering a film that did not earn a single Oscar nomination, that is Sam Levinson's Malcolm and Marie. And this is this is fun. We've never done this. We've never talked in-depth about such a current movie on this podcast. This flick was just released on Netflix a few weeks ago, and we certainly haven't discussed a new movie that is this controversial while it is in the midst of its own controversy. So but the reason we're talking about this movie is that is because we both really liked it and not to, you know, put words in your mouth. But I, I did not anticipate that. And I don't think you did either. So this is just going to be a lot of fun to dove into. Yeah, I thought this movie was going to suck. I know I was trying to be nice about it, but that is absolutely what you thought. You thought it was going to be awful. And, you know, you get all of these on the Internet, you get all of these people that, you know, everyone talks a huge game before something comes out. Like as if they know what it is, as if they've seen it, as if they understand. And so there's all this shit. And then here I am, I'd be like, What the fuck is this? This is, this is, this is just not going to be good. And I had for my own foot in my mouth because I can't think of a movie that I have enjoyed more in a long time. Yeah. In terms of like what this movie does like and how it's done, you do not see movies like this anymore. Yeah, I have that written actually I think a few times in my notes. It's because the conceit of this movie is incredibly simple, almost to the point where it's jarring. How in the world am I to believe that they're going to be able to pull this off reasonably? Because the movie is just this. Malcolm and Marie are a couple who have been dating for about five years. They arrive home late one evening. It's a nice rental near Malibu. They arrive home one evening following the premiere of Malcolm's first feature film. He's a director and things go awry very quickly and pretty much stay that way for the remaining hour and 45 minutes. And what happens in that time is one of the great all time movie arguments. And I genuinely knew nothing about this movie. When I sat down to watch it, I knew it had caused a little controversy. The only thing I had heard that was controversial was that there were some things in the movie that film critics specifically didn't like, and they were trashing those aspects of the film a little bit. But again, so shortly after it started and he starts going on his rant about how the movie premiere went and you get, Okay, this guy's a film director. I really got nervous because it is hard, especially now, to pull off a movie about movies or about filmmakers without immediately drawing criticism. It's, you know, writers are allowed to write about writers, but filmmakers talking about filmmakers is it's a really tricky rope. Yeah. And it certainly it leans into that argument like a huge part of this movie is art versus criticism. Mm hmm. And to immediately start with the monologue that he begins with, I mean, I love it because I think this is, like, important shit. This that's why I love the controversy. I don't understand the controversy, to be honest, because, I mean, in my opinion, if a movie makes you angry or makes you upset that it's doing something right. And so for a movie to unapologetically in just this particular context, just talking about art and criticism, for it to commit to its point of view and it's what should be happening. That was really well said. And you also alluded to the fact that we're just talking talking about art versus criticism, because on top of all that, this movie absolutely goes for it on so many different subjects we're talking it loudly discusses race, gender roles, the ignorance of some film critics, perhaps drug addiction. There's nothing off limits here. And frankly, as you said earlier, they just don't really make movies like this anymore. And just to kind of slow it down and back up, this movie really is uncompromising in a lot of ways. The story which we're going to dove into is unflinching. And the movie itself, it just starts two people. There are two speaking roles. It was shot on black and white, 35 millimeter film. So you're already alienating some of your audience. It's grainy. There are long musical interludes of people just thinking or staring off, which we don't really get as we further progress with streaming movies. This is it's a very dangerous film, quote unquote. And I'm here for it. And I really thought this movie succeeded on every level. So I kind of want to start with one of the broadest questions, which is, is this one of the all time great movie arguments we have talked about movie arguments on this podcast. Usually they are just one scene. This is the entire movie. You know, Before Midnight has a really long extended argument that goes that extends into different settings. But I mean, obviously, I think, yes, it's one of the all time great ones. But just let's start there. How did you feel about this pulling off for an hour and 45 minutes, pulling off a seamless argument is astounding. I couldn't believe that it was an argument that lasted for an entire length of a movie and one that I never felt got stale. And that's very hard to do. I was thinking a lot about before midnight because that probably was the closest one that I could compare it to up until because yeah, that's like a 30 minute scene that does what arguments do. It goes on the roller coaster. So now you're talking about this one that just does it from start to finish. There's Cassavetes stuff going on in here in terms of the way that humans deal with one another, the behavior of it all, what other movie does it for this long and this? Well, I mean, it's tough. There are a few up there like scenes from a marriage is a good one. But they're they're rarely this volatile. That movie gets really rough. But their volatility between Zendaya and John David Washington, who are playing leads here, is just maintained throughout. And this is not an easy movie to pull off, both in shooting. We're going to get into how it was shot and everything like that. But, you know, when we talk about movie arguments, we've mentioned this before, a lot of movie arguments, even ones that are well regarded, they imagine them kind of like a rollercoaster where they go up steadily and there's bickering and then someone makes a really big point and there's an explosion. And then as it's cascading downhill, usually just cut and the scene is done. So that's it. If you go back and watch a lot of movie arguments when someone makes a really good point and it's like that's the point. The scene just cuts in. You're on to the next day or the next month or wherever. And the implication of that editing cut is that person just made that point. So now that's probably what both those characters are doing. That's what they're believing. This movie, when you're watching Malcolm Marie has so many opportunities for that, bam, that line is just thrown down, boom. I made the point, I won, quote unquote. But then you have to sit with it just like you do in real life. And it's really uncomfortable sometimes, but I was leaning closer to the TV like, this is so compelling to me that we're sitting in these silences. But then the most engaging aspect of this film for me is as they were arguing, they were getting so fucking nasty with each other that I was thinking. I was trying to think like a chess player going, How in the hell is a person going to be able to respond to this? Like they are being gutted and this person is saying such mean shit. Do they possibly have any dirt on them? That's do they can come back with and then they do and they do that like four times in the movie. That's really cool. It's a very, very honest and real showcase of a relationship argument. The breaks that this movie has, that the characters lead to me is so interesting because after a certain piece of an argument, there's a break and you see a person's thought something changes, and that's how it happens. And like, it's an uncomfortable hour or 2 hours to sit through. But I loved it because I was like, This is fucking life. This is this is a fucking human experience. Absolutely. And I'm I just love studying psychology for fun. I love trying to think about why people make the decisions they do. Watching the film the first time, you know, they walk, they come home. And he is very excited. He's elated, maybe a little drunk. She is a little defeated, not saying much, making him macaroni and cheese. And it basically comes out that she initially is upset that he did not thank her during while he was introducing the movie and said, you know, thank you so much to my love, Marie, whatever. And this is especially a little more troubling because the film he's just made is about a woman that is apparently based on Marie. So she is taking a lot of issue with all of this. So that's where the argument starts. But that is not really what they're fighting about. They're fighting about way, way, way more than that. And I just love that because that that's how arguments can start. It was so realistic to me in those debates. You're talking about those breaks. That does happen. And there's some really kind of key moments in here that movie characters aren't really allowed to get away with a lot. Like she wasn't mad. She said she wasn't mad. And he goes, I thought you weren't mad anymore. She takes that long beat goes, I changed my mind. Yeah. In his reaction. You know, it's kind of a fair one. He's like, Wait, you're allowed to do that? Yeah. Like people change their mind, dude. Sorry. And now it's 1 a.m. and you're stuck here, and that's like, just what's going on. And in the breaks. What's always interesting to me, because I was really paying attention. I've seen it three times now and I was really paying attention, going, What does set her off in the beginning? It's usually a mention of, you know, you're not in film, so like you're and then of course that's going to set her off because she wants to be in maybe she wants to be in film, but you didn't give her the opportunity to. And I just loved watching those little triggers of what is riling her up. And then furthermore, I loved thinking about when is she going to make the decision to pop off. You can see all of that playing out on Emma. We'll talk about the actors specifically in a second. You can just see that conflict playing out over them all the time and I love that. Generally, I think it's really hard to pull an argument, a good argument off. I was saying earlier that a lot of arguments are like a rollercoaster. I think a more accurate representation of one is more like a slope, like you're going up and then you're going down, you're going up and like you're fighting. Then you're kind of making up. Then you're fighting and making up. Sustaining it for this long is an incredible feat. And I think I'm going to be watching this one very often, kind of like marveling at it and picking it apart. Yeah, I've seen it twice now and in both times, watching it and this is what I love about movies like this is I think this happens in Cassavetes movies, Blue Valentine, the Before trilogy. You can watch these movies and have a very different opinion of where these people are coming from each time you watch it. First time I watched it, I really felt him. I really understood him. I maybe that's a part of me that imagined myself as a man, being a filmmaker in a conversation like this, there is a lot for me personally to relate to. And then this time around I thought he was a complete idiot, a buffoon. He handled everything wrong. And I mean, the thing is, is like there's no right or wrong answer to this. Like, there's no way that, like, we could have a conversation, be like, no, no, he's right about this. He's wrong about this. It's life isn't like that. People aren't like that. So the the men and women aspect of this is so well done. I think that's a really good distinction to make that I'm certainly not declaring a winner of their fight or even the little the battles within their war, nor are you. And that's what that's one of the reasons why I loved it. This was shot in black and white because this movie is all about the gray of a relationship and that yeah, if you know, that's really what you're looking at when you're looking at black and white like a series of grays. And but we've gone long enough without talking about the people behind the movie specifically. I kind of want to start with the writer director, Sam Levinson. I want to give him some quick credit because this is the showrunner slash creator of Euphoria on HBO, which is a tremendously successful and popular show. It enjoyed its first season, and then it was in the middle of prepping its second season. Had to shut down because of COVID lockdown. And that's where the idea for Malcolm and Marie came from. Levinson and Zendaya wanted to keep working together. How the hell did you make a feature film in lockdown? They figured out how to do it. It was really cool. They had a very small cast and crew. I think 12 people total were the amount that were allowed to be on set. Sam Levinson is the son of Oscar winning director Barry Levinson, who made I mean, good God, we just talked about diner recently. Good morning, Vietnam. Rain Man Sleepers Wag the Dog. And Sam is his father's son because I really dug Sam's first movie, Another Happy Day, this tiny indie from 2011 that very few people saw. But it had some A-listers in it. It's just it's a good little movie. His second feature was Assassination Nation. That was apparently the movie premiere where Sam forgot to thank his partner and they resolved it amicably. It didn't lead to this huge blowout, but he just accidentally forgot. And I think that was some of the starting inspiration for Malcolm and Marie, which I love. Yes. Sam Levinson, you know, he creates euphoria. He helped produce pieces of a woman, which I didn't know until researching this episode today. So that makes me love him even more. And it's going to be crazy for him when euphoria starts back up. But yeah, that's the man responsible for this film, in part because it seems like he is very eager to share credit with Zendaya and John David Washington. I mean, they're both credited as PGA producers on the film. Like, that's that's a really big deal and not easy to get. So the biggest criticism of this film, and I don't know if I'm an authority to talk about this and probably not, is that he is the sole credited writer on the film. They're talking about a lot of serious race issues. You know, he's a white guy. They're talking about race issues, gender issues. So was was he the correct person to author this? And to me, I the whole time I was watching this, I saw this as one giant three way collaboration between the three of them, very much how Ethan Hawke, Julie Delpy and Linklater write those scripts together. So that's just how it felt for me. But yeah, I just wanted to put Sam Levinson in your ear. I know I was texting you about him a little earlier, but I think that's cool. He's it can be a tough row to hoe, too, not to live in the shadow of such a monumental filmmaker. You have to step out from the inherent nepotism involved in that and try to make it on your own. And I think he's doing that. Yeah. And speaking to that controversy, do you think for a single second that actors like Zendaya or John David Washington, who had PGA credit on this, are going to let anything fly that they don't believe in, in a passion project like this, too, to think that they do not have input or do not have collaboration involved with this director writer That's asinine. Yeah. And it's very I don't know, I would, I would imagine, kind of disrespectful to everyone who is involved because it's such a small crew. Everyone's putting everything in to making this whole entire thing. So they're all there's one vision that everyone sees, and if it's not approved by the producers and stars, they're not going to do it. They're not going to let it happen. So it's like there's also a giant part of it is like, why do you care? That's a great question. It's a truly great question. Are you having an issue with that or are you having issue with some of the questions that it's raising? And that's what I think is so great about this movie, is because nothing's ever answered nothing this whole entire time between the argument between men and women, art and criticism, race. None of it is answered. It's all just being expressed. And it's done in beautiful ways. It's done in ugly ways. It's done in messy ways. And I just don't think a lot of people want to deal with it. They don't want to deal with the mess. Right. It is messy. And it's I think it could be tough for some people, myself included. I don't always want to watch movies that open all these doors, not close them. We are very used to movies asking questions and answering them for us and we're like, Cool. Now we get to leave the theater and just kind of go on with our day. Some do pressure you a little bit more and that can make people uncomfortable. I get it. But yes, this was it was absolutely a passion project that they all had their hands in. And I'm going to give a few examples of that that I discovered in my research. Malcolm he arrived at that name because that is John David Washington's brother's name. And he got that name because he was named after one of his father's most famous roles, Malcolm X John David Washington is Denzel Washington son. So that's where Malcolm comes from. Marie is Zendaya's middle name. Even though it's spelled differently. Their hands were all over this movie there, so there may only be one credited screenwriter, but the actors were in charge of their hair make up costumes, including that dress. So like I said, I think this is it was born from all of them. They should all share the credit of it. And look, it's one of the reasons I love this film so much is because it's so it brings up so many damn messy topics. That's why I loved it. I like challenging art. Not now, ever. We talked about this a lot. Not everything we watch has to be this complex, messy, difficult thing to stomach. Like we like escapist entertainment too. But this was one for a modern movie that Netflix acquired. Like, I just thought it was. I see Malcolm and Marie just a few weeks after seeing pieces of a woman on the same streaming platform. And both of these are some of the best movies that I've ever seen on stream, you know, that aired on a streaming platform first. So Zendaya is someone incredibly popular child, Disney star that I was not aware of any of that. The first time I saw her. She was in a Spider-Man movie, and I remember noticing her and being like, Hmm, she has a general just presence about her. She just playing a high school kid that I went there. I don't know who that is, but that is that either is someone famous that I'm just too old to know about, or that someone that's going to be really famous. Then Euphoria comes out, and that was a show that I was a little critical on, not because of her. She's incredible. I mean, she won a damn Emmy for it, a lead actress Emmy for that role. And I went back and rewatched that whole show after I learned that Sam Levinson based a lot of it on his own experiences. That is, as a teenager. I did not realize that. And I have a newfound appreciation for the show. But her work in that is incredible. So I was like, All right, like I'm here for it. Let me see what happens. She shows up in this and I saw her. This woman is 24 years old right now, and this is a hell of a powerhouse performance. I'm just I'm so excited to see where her career goes. It seems like she has any number of options. She's in the MCU universe. She's plays a teenage drug addict on an HBO show, and she can be this incredible lead actress in major streaming platform movies. It's great. I mean, I loves and I can't wait to see what she does. Yeah, I have never seen a single thing she's done until this movie, so I really didn't know anything about her. And from the second she walks in the door wearing that dress, but the way she's walking, the way she's carrying herself, the emotional life that she had just walking into the house, I was like, there is something going on. And it was compelling and it was captivating. And she carries that throughout the whole entire movie. Like, you can just tell like she's a star, but she carries herself with such grace and maturity in this character, but then also immaturity. And I mean, that's what I love so much about it is both of these people have these yeah. These flaws, these hot and cold as to being just utterly human. Exactly. That's what I was going to say. They have these flaws, which makes them real people. It's so common to be having an argument with someone and them to be displaying or even yourself to be displaying immense maturity. And the next sentence that you don't even need to fucking say, but you just say it is so immature and then it gets everything started back up again. I loved it and watching it, I'm like, Why did you just say that? But I'd be really interested to hear your thoughts on Euphoria. Not necessarily every episode, but she plays that. That's a wild show that gets away with. I mean, it's it's crazy. Like it gets away with a lot. But I heard her in an interview today saying that I don't know if this is the case now, but when she was in that show for the first season, she had never tried drugs or alcohol. And again, I don't know if that's the way now, but I'm saying her character is so fucked up in that show all the time that I don't. It makes me appreciate her so much that she is. If she's genuinely never impaired her brain in every way to be able to play it that effectively is kind of mind boggling. And I'm not saying like her character does heroin and fentanyl. I'm not saying an actor has to do that, but I don't know. It's just really impressive to never had a beer and yet know how to behave on fentanyl. It's kind of crazy. Acting, baby. Acting. There you go. Just like Vanessa Kirby has, you know, has never given birth, but does what she does and pieces of a woman. So, I don't know, calling her back again, don't it? Yeah. I was going to say you bring it back to Kirby. Yeah. Let's move on to John David, Washington. I have had a bit a bit longer of a relationship with him as an actor. I've seen every episode of Ballers. I watched three seasons of that show before. I saw a news article with him standing next to his dad and realized That's Denzel Washington's kid. And when you see them stand next to each other, you're like, Oh, they look, I just I didn't get it on his own. I never made the connection. He was, of course, in Tenet in 2020. And that was a big tentpole summer blockbuster movie. And he was the star of it. And I had some issues with that film and his performance. We went into that a little bit on our Oscars Breakdown podcast, but this is I'm just calling myself out here and talking about, you know, you've seen someone in one thing or two things and not and think that that should seal the book on them. And that's not what I'm saying. I done with him. I'm not being that dramatic, but I'm telling you that I thought this performance was absolutely fucking breathtaking. Like I did not. This was the first time. Here's what I'll say. It's the first time I've seen his father in him. And that's a really, really high compliment if you are ever compared to Denzel Washington. And he showed up that way pretty much the whole time in this movie. I saw this and before me was an actor of incredible power and range and specificity and talent that I now I'm such a huge fan, and I don't think that's a disrespectful thing because, I mean, you come around, you see something, you met, you're wrong, and here we are. Every time I sit down for a movie, whoever's directed it, whoever is starring in it, if I have seen something, I have it like from them in the past. I'm like, Okay, here, this is a clean slate. Here we go. We're starting over. I do not care who you are, what you've made, and I genuinely try to start every movie that way and it was good to do that here because he just comes in with a similar energy that he carries, but just but what you call him earlier, a buffoon, I think. And he is he's just like, yeah, out there. That scene, the first time I saw that scene of him going outside and kicking at the grass and doing this, I'm like, this is like a little over the top, little Buster Keaton. But I went, Yeah, maybe I've thought about doing that. Maybe I have done that once or twice in the past. And then the scene has this amazing landing where he's just walking and he goes, Fuck Malibu. And that's like, I am not an easy laugh in movies. I'm easy to to think something is very funny, but I'll be like, Oh shit, that was hilarious. But to make me laugh out loud, I was just in stitches watching this in my living room multiple times because of him and his comedic timing is something that I haven't seen from him. I haven't seen him really have the need to flex that. And he made me laugh a lot. That's there was that there was the wallet thing which I thought was just great. And every time I watch it, it's hysterical. There's his critique of him reading his film review. Like, Woody, you know, it opens with the Steadicam and he's like, It's a dolly, you fucking idiot. I just I love that so much. I know. I thought of you and I read that. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, let's talk a little bit about the movement of this movie in terms of them, because, I mean, it starts out with them entering the house and he's making himself drinks and walking around the couch, around the living room area with this giant speech about how the night went. You know, and one might not think much of that, but that's a one track shot that just keeps going from side to side and through a window. And so when you're the actor, you realize that you've got a lot of space to play with. This is uncomfortable. A lot of times for film actors because they're not used to having to be big. They're not used to having to actually figure out business around a space for a long period of time. It's a very theater trained thing that if you've done theater that you kind of know what's up. And it's like this dude had a command over every step. He took feel in the music, feel in the drink, feeling his confidence, feeling himself for having the night that he had. Oh, baby, you know, like you can you feel it all through him. And then juxtaposed with Zendaya just calmly taking a cigaret. But just speaking to a little bit about the impressiveness of the physicality from the actors and how they carry themselves. Because as he's all loose like this, she is. There's something going on. You can tell, and she's very still and the power and stillness is just resonating with her. So as much as he is moving around her, her just standing behind the kitchen watching him, there's conflict already. Yes. Because throughout this whole entire movie, every sequence that happens is staged in blocks so specifically and so freely for the actors to perform that. That's why you can have a one hour and 45, 55 minute movie argument go and flow from high to low like it does without it feeling like that, because everything was taken care of and crafted so well. I mean, you know, we're huge nerds about this stuff. And as someone who like, I like to shoot my own stuff. So when I when I focus on cinematography, that doesn't just mean you're like, Oh, what camera or lenses or something did they use? It's I'm also really paying attention to different stabilizers. So that's like, did they move the camera at all? Was it on not to quote him from the movie, but was it on this like flawless dolly? Was it handheld? Now, what is the point of using that technique for that one versus that one in this given scene? And he uses a bunch of different techniques in this. He'll, you know, rush up to them. Murray, Murray. And then cut away and then so he'll get crazy. And whenever a different technique is employed, it was always the right one, in my opinion. And I'm not saying this one way is right in every other way. It's wrong. It just felt correct to me. I'm like, I understand why they're making out and getting frisky here, why this is handheld and why the editing is overlapping. Like we're not seeing their words necessarily and but we're hearing it because and then it cuts to them speaking. So all that playfulness, it just really fit. And it gave me the sign of someone who really thought about what they were doing and really knows what they are doing because yeah. And what's even in the writing is when he's talking about that authenticity seen and he's talking about what actually makes a film. The film is like, you just put a camera up and hit record. That's a YouTube video about the choices that you're making. And none of it is about what's right and wrong. It's about what do you want to do? And I think that might be what some people have issue with with this movie, is that so much of this is just because this was what Sam Levinson wanted to do. This is how he saw the scene. Yeah. In its technique and the way that it's actually being executed, it's fully supporting his point of view with the way he's telling his story in that way. Because all of this is executed on a very, very specific level that, you know, you're just talking about. You're like, I don't know if it's right. I don't know if it's wrong, but I like it. I see why they're doing it this way. It's connecting and I agree. So, I mean, this is definitely a movie that's made for people like us in that way. Like, we're going to see everything. It's doing and appreciate it. Exactly. And, you know, we hear the lines are getting blurred more and more now. I mean, even in our top ten of 2020, did for our number one pick, did we list a TV miniseries or was it a film? I mean, who knows? The basic difference between television and movies to me is that TV is mostly about information. We are giving you words. We're cutting different scenes a lot. We're going here. We're going here. We're keeping you invested, keeping you motivated. There's there's a lot of words being spoken. So maybe if you want to get on your phone for 30 to 60 seconds, you're not going to miss much movies. And this movie is a good example. If you are on your phone in during those shots, in the beginning of them walking around or in the end with all of those mirrors, if you just hop on your phone here because it's boring and you're just listening to a jazz song and watching two actors staring to a camera, you can have a very, very different thought about the movie before you got on your phone. I mean, this is true of every movie of course, but and then I think when that happens, maybe that frustrates people that this has been my running theory anyway, that this is why binging 3 hours of a TV show is so much more popular now than watching an hour and 45 minute movie. Because you it requires a bit more focus and a bit more attention and my whole TV information thing that doesn't apply to miniseries like I know this much is true is 8 hours and I guess that's technically TV but that is played much more like an eight hour film. And that's why I'm saying the lines are so blurry. It's like, who? I don't know, who knows? But in general, you can put on Survivor or the Office shows I love and Daughter on your phone for a couple of minutes and still get the main intention of it. You can't really do it with a movie like this and still get what's going on so you can. That may be a reason why it was up on Netflix's top ten for a week and then it went away. I'm just. I'm just like mank pieces of woman. I understand why people why that's hard because it's a tough movie, but I'm getting more and more baffled by the fact that all of these streaming movies that I love, the general public, just doesn't seem to. I mean, the Irishman is another one where I was like, I still love that damn movie. And and then the ones that do get the love are ones that I, you know, maybe don't like as much. But I guess that's just the game now. I don't know, man. I think so. I think it is patience. Yeah. And you're talking about how information is pretty much what rules TV. One thing that I thought might actually be the most impressive thing to me about this movie was that so much of the conversation is about this movie that we never see. Yep, the movie he made, the movie Malcolm made is a movie that is at the front of the conversation between him and Zendaya and without there being ridiculous, blasé exposition, by the end of this movie, we actually can put together for ourselves what this movie was that Malcolm made. We can actually understand who this person was that we never see that was cast out wise, and it has a problem with it. What the movie's about, based on the way that he talks about how the critics speak about it. Everything's being told to you, by a roundabout way, of talking about the movie. Not directly. So by doing it that way, we put together our own idea of what the fuck this movie was without him at any point being like. So I made a movie and it's about this and everything like that and this a-to-b way of explaining things. We're going A to Z and the whole entire movie is revealing a little bit more around it because the heart of the issue is about something much deeper between these two characters. But we are finding out about the movie that Malcolm made in that way, and that's very, very hard to do that. I just I had to bring that up because that's just such a such a fascinating and well done piece of this movie. The whole time. Yes, absolutely. 100% agree the whole time they were talking about it. So I was wondering, am I going to get annoyed by all the discussion of this movie? And then at some point I settled into it. I'm like, oh, this is like the heist and Reservoir Dogs. I like, I love this. They're just talking about it, referencing it. And I know I know exactly that. Mr. Blondish jumped up there and started killing people. I mean, how long was that poor black girl like you have a crystal clear idea of it. And yeah, this was the same way I think the movie I think the film's name is Amari, which is the lead character's name. And it it would be so cool if like that movie existed and we could see it. That's how real it felt. It really felt like, Yeah, man, I'm going to pull up like the phone and go on Variety or something. There's going to be a review of this movie out there, not Malcolm Marie, this Amari movie. It's just so cool. And as we kind of near the end here, there's two things I really loved in the way of the script and the freedom of the actors to let them slur and stutter. He played drunk very well, very carefully. He never went over the top, but the murmuring stuttering. And she just kind of stuttered, as one does in arguments or when recording a podcast. And then I just heard Sam Levinson mention this on a podcast, and I wanted to bring this up because I this is the most geeky thing to fully endorse. The reason why he put the credits in the beginning of this movie is that all these damn streaming services just cut out right away at the end and they're like, you know, the credits start, so you could be sitting in something. And I know I'm not the first person to bring this up. I think I've even heard Tarantino complain about this. But you can be sitting like in the wake of a movie and it's just ended and you like space off and you turned around and it's done and like the office theme song you started, you're like, Wait a minute to it's like, I'm just try to just try to hang out here. So he put them first to give credit to the people who deserve credit. And I really love that. It's very old school thing to do and. Anything that you can do. I love it for that reasoning because not even knowing that I put together for myself like, Oh cool. I wonder why these credits are happening right here. And you see a lot of movies that do it that I've always found fascinating just because it's something you don't see. And I think I'm just more attracted nowadays to when something goes against the normal way of doing things, I'm immediately in. I'm like, I don't even care what your reason is. Box Lux Right. Same deal. Like they did. They ran the whole entire credits. Climax by Gaspar NoéI mean when and that was great because when that movie ends and you don't and you're left with that impact like that just ends. It's like it's dark. Just as lights go on in the theater and you're like, Oh, I have to sit here now with. This. I'm a real credit snob. I heard I heard Steven Soderbergh reference the importance of fonts to James Cameron on the Solaris director's film commentary, because that's like Helvetica, I mean, massive font in salaries. And I remember seeing a young age and going, Wow, when you think about it, like there's just not that many different fonts in movies. Like whether we're talking about credits, title cards, date stuff. So when someone puts a little more thought into that, I always love it. I always pay attention. Gaspar In a way, and Soderbergh are probably two of my favorites. But even Malcolm Marie, the title card comes 13 minutes in pretty much right when their argument is kicking off, like right when it starts and it's just a little more thought, a little more attention put into it. And I love that. And can we talk about the macaroni and cheese? Yeah. I mean, that's that's that seems to be a scene that is pulled away and universally liked, which is nice. So at least, you know, people like something from it. It's true. And the reason why is because it's action revolving around something that's not actually a part of the conversation. Like it's almost like, you know, the Hitchcock MacGuffin. It's the thing that everything's going around but doesn't actually matter. But to her point. So when this movie finally ends and her whole entire point is just thank me for being me because I made you macaroni and cheese because you didn't thank me. It just like I love her character because when she's she's so right. Yeah, but the macaroni and cheese. I love that the title card comes on the macaroni and cheese like it's made such a big deal and it looks so good. It does. Like the food on screen is like a whole entire thing. But you're also talking about production design too. So you have any thoughts in the macaroni and cheese? Yeah, I just I thought I mean, macaroni and cheese has been making a good play lately. We have once upon a time in Hollywood, macaroni, cheese, nothing ever went anywhere. But it's making it good. Come back for a lot of narrative narrative aspects of film. There's got to be another one there that I'm just forgetting. The main thing I have about that is the landing that it reaches with that line that she delivers because it's a nice soft landing and some of the best points to make. If you ever make a point in your life that you didn't yell out the you said it like calmly and it devastated the other person. And it's like, yeah. And it's so interesting that it comes from a place of kindness. Like she made. She was kind to make macaroni and cheese, you know, it was. Yeah, it's the point that is made is that. Yeah, love me for who I am and maybe I'm a little fucking better than you. Give me credit for buddy. And the specif Cassidy and the way that he eats it. And for me, I kind of took it as I need to eat this really fast before she comes back and catches me eating the food that she made. Because I know I'm being a bit of an asshole. Yeah. And then she comes in and she has the whole entire thing. You really going to, like, yell at me while you're eating? Because now he's just committed. They were both. They are times of great humor. And then that bathtub scene. Holy shit. He was so that's what I mean when I was watching that going. How, how is she going to forgive him for this speech? And then that's kind of what kicks her into gear. So and you know, what I loved about that, too, was like, that's such a man thing to do. You like by revealing all of this information that he is, he thinks that he's being so mean and so cruel and he's saying all of the possible things that he thinks would just break her. And really, yes, they are hurtful, they are mean. But like when it finally comes back to it, when she's just sort of like after everything you just said, I just thought it was gross that you did that with that bitch. Yeah, right. Exactly. And also how he can be so mean. And then he turns the corner, leaves room, comes back, and all of that was to say how much he loves her. This to go from hate, to love. It doesn't make sense. It's not normal. It's. But that's how it is when you're in a fucking fight like that. Yeah. Rational and irrational behavior is out the fucking window. This movie is just all about that. We love this movie. Obviously loved everything about it. It's like I really liked it the first time I saw it. I liked it way more the second time. And then I watched it yesterday for the second time and then today for the third time in today, I just I really wanted to focus on the technical aspects of it. And it is all the technical aspects are there, the sound, the echoes of the dialog, like it's all there. So I would just urge people to check this one out if you have already and it didn't work for you, then we appreciate you listening. But I don't know if you were thinking like I've been thinking about it, wanting to revisit it. That's kind of where my head was at. Like, I wonder, I think there's a little bit more here to dig into. I would just urge people to do that because it's a lot of fun to unpack. There's a lot going on in it. So yeah. And I would challenge anyone to who might not have seen it yet. If you don't like it, why? And ask yourself, really, are you not liking it because you're not with seeing two people have an argument like this for about 2 hours. Are you just not comfortable with the content or are you not comfortable because of the controversy surrounding it? Really be honest with yourself because this is where we're at in art and film is so much of what goes into what we're seeing now is completely being ruled by outside thought and outside opinion and outside outside noise. So if you're watching this movie and you don't like it, really, really ask yourself why and see where that takes you. Because I have a feeling with a movie like this you'll learn a lot about yourself if you don't like something well-said. It's a challenging piece. Yeah, very challenging piece. And we're going to move right into. What are you watching? Recommend something other than Malcolm and Marie, which is available for free on Netflix right now. Go check it out. I'll go first today and I'm going to recommend something challenging more so. And that is Scenes from Marriage, which have already reference men, 1973, directed by the great Ingmar Bergman. And this is a tough movie. It's very long. There are two versions of it. There's a 280 minute version that was made for Swedish television. They do things over there differently, is better. They're allowed to pretty much air whatever they want. So I would recommend getting a hold of the again, it's 280 minutes, but, you know, it's in five parts. And then there is a 167 minute theatrical version that premiered in the U.S. and both versions right now are available on Criterion on their app. So, you know, Jessica Chastain and Oscar Isaac two friends who went to Juilliard together, they are reprising these roles. I cannot wait to see that. So in in preparation leading up to that, it'd be cool to sit down and watch the original throw Malcolm Marie in there. You're going to have a well, you're just going have a hell of a time. Yeah, hell of a time. Hell of a time. What about you? What do you have for us? So I'm going to go with from the opening shot of this movie, it reminded me instantly of another movie that I think you could draw a lot of comparisons to is Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf directed by the great Mike Nichols. One of my all time favorites. And similarly, like, like that whole entire movie kind of lives in the same world as Malcolm and Marie, with this one night complex, a human driven fight. It's excellent. It's so well done. It's based on a play, one of the great play adaptations into a film. There's a lot of like, you know, talk about Malcolm Marie being like a play. And I love the ways that you can draw and connect those dots because. So who's afraid of Virginia Woolf? Check that one out and have fun. One of my all time favorites. His first movie, Mike Nichols first movie. That's insane. I adore that movie. Yeah, a lot of similarities. Black and white over one night, like you said, a lot of very complex gender dynamics going back and forth. So that's great. Thanks, everyone, for listening to our breakdown of Malcolm memories, our first stab at a contemporary movie. We really like this one. We really stand behind it. Let us know if you watch it. Let us know on Twitter at W a y w underscore podcast because we really want to know what you think of it. So as always, thanks for listening and happy watching. Hey everyone, thanks again for listening. You can watch my films and read my movie blog at Alex with Growcom. Nicolas Toast. Welcome is where you can find all of Nick's film work. If you have any questions or comments, please email us at what are you watching? Podcast at gmail.com. And of course you can find us on Twitter at W a y w underscore podcast. Next time is all about 1982 at the Movies, a sneakily influential year for film classics in so many different genres. Stay tuned. A really audacious move coming right off. I mean, I saw this just a few weeks after pieces of April, which was one of the best movies I've. Seen, pieces of a woman. I said, Piece of April shit. You're right. I've been saying that all the time. It's good movie. I mean, I see. Malcolm. Yeah.