115: Poor Things (2023) | Maestro (2023)

This episode has a bit of everything: a spoiler-free review of Yorgos Lanthimos’ “Poor Things,” threats to The Academy, answers to some frequently asked mailbag questions, a spoiler-filled review of Bradley Cooper’s “Maestro,” and a breathtaking note from a fan.
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Watch Alex's films at http://alexwithrow.com/
Watch Nick's films at https://www.nicholasdostal.com/
Send us mailbag questions at whatareyouwatchingpodcast@gmail.com

Transcript

0:19

Hey, everyone. Welcome to What are you watching? I'm Alex Withrow, and I'm joined by my best man, Nick Dostal. How are you doing there? Duncan Wedderburn. yes, I got it. I got the one I wanted. I got the one I wanted. That's what you wanted. I wanted. I wanted the rough. No one's going to know what that means. my God. I love that. Did you just make that up? Yeah. Yeah. my God. I love that they're up on it. I'm. I'm. I'm so excited to be here to talk about this one. This one is great. It's going to be a lot of furious jumping going on on this plane. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. She love that. God, I love that. I just never heard. Never heard such things. Yes. This is going to be a lot of fun. We didn't plan to do this episode, actually. It was not outlined. And then some things happened, some some poor things and things that we're going to get to. Some poor things. well, actually the opposite of support things. But yes, poor things cinematically happen. Yes, we did get some rich things happening in our life as well, but we both saw Yorgos Lanthimos new film Poor Things, which is going to be in Oscar contention this year. We both responded favorably to it. So we're going to have a sort of another mixed bag episode today. We're not even going to talk about poor things first, because I'm going to talk about why this episode is even happening. A few days ago, I'm like, walk in. You know, I'm walking into Target to do some holiday shopping, which is not fun. No. And an email pops up on my phone and I can gather just from the preview that this is a fan email that has come in through the podcast account. And I'm like, because they're pretty rare. You know, people will reach out via DMS on Twitter, DMS, on Instagram, but the long, very thoughtful email, those are rare. We do try to call them out on this podcast. So we got an email from a nice fella. I should have asked if we could. I didn't tell him we were going to be talking about this, so I don't know if he'd like us to say his name, but the preview that I see on my phone, I can gather that he is thanking us for turning him on to movies and for, you know, changing his tastes and putting him on to people like Mike Nichols, Paul Thomas Anderson, John Cassavetes, Ingmar Bergman, which is music to our ears. And then I, you know, I was in the middle of doing stuff and I'm like, wow, that's that's really great. Obviously, knowing that I'm going to read the email later, but just seeing that it like puts such a pep in my step and that's all I thought the email said. But what did you think reading that? Because I forwarded the email to you, what did you think reading that like just to hear that what we say on this podcast is somehow motivating a 23 year old. He did say how old he was to watch all the movies we talk about all the time, where he he said his gateway to finding What are you watching was our Ingmar Bergman podcast. And that's that right there is like enough of an email to just send me on my merry way. But what did you think when you saw that? I honestly, it was it's one of the greatest compliments that I could have ever gotten in my entire life to be. Honestly, really is. You know, you kind of set forth and you do things in the world and you don't really know how it's going to go. You do it because you believe in it. You do it because you think you've got something valuable to provide. And I think we do on this part. Like I've always believed in this, and I hope so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like with, like with everything. When, when you get something like this in return that just lets you know that what you're doing means something even more than we probably think it does. It's just truly the most humbling and and beautiful kind of recognition that I think you can get. So I'm going to respond personally to this letter to through an email. But on here, I just want to just voice a complete gratitude and a beautiful, beautiful thanks And and I'm so glad I'm so glad that we're able to reach someone like this. Yeah, it's just it's the coolest thing, man. And, you know, we talk about movies the way that we do. We like to talk about certain movies that people might not know or to taint or to try to turn people on to. That's always been the mission of the pod. Yeah, it's always been how do we talk about movies in a way that gets the conversation going? Not about like why this is the greatest movie ever made. This is why do you love it? And to kind of find things that are out there that aren't the norm anymore for us. They are. Well, yeah, but for the rest of the world, like these are almost like we're we're putting up a fight to keep these movies alive. Yeah. Yeah. And so, yeah, so truly, truly from the bottom of my heart. A deep thank you and just awesome. Just an awesome, awesome letter to receive it made my whole entire month and I I'm just tickled tickled, tickled to death tickled he said after he discovered the Bergman Party's gone and listened to every episode, some even three or four times, I was like, God. And he said, You know, you both have completely changed the way I see film as an art form. So I mean, that just means it really does mean the world to us. And, you know, I get home from my shopping venture and I'm just kind of like winded and over stuff. And then I open the email and I'm actually going to give it its proper credit. Now, when I read the whole thing. And then toward the end, I mean, I like emails like this are rare. It means so much to me when people are saying, you know, I'm discovering film through you. What he said next is so incredibly rare that I don't even know if it's ever happened to me. He went on to say that he's getting ready to make his own movie and that we, you and I, What are you watching? Is one of the biggest influences over his filmmaking. That's insane. I mean, he puts us in with cast that he's in Birdman and what are you watching? It just he's listening to us. And, you know, he wanted to share how important the podcast was to his love for film and him making an actual movie. And that's just fucking crazy. And when I responded to his email, I said, like, you've given us the best Christmas gifts we could have ever passed on possesses. You have no idea like what this what? This does not take this with me. And yeah, absolutely made my day, my week, my month. We're still talking about it. That's so that is actually this letter is why I'm like let's call this out on the podcast. I don't think this is too, you know, self-aggrandizing. We're just what we're really giving our utmost appreciation, like from the bottom of our hearts. This really meant a lot to us. And that goes for everyone who reaches out. yeah, everyone. We always we always get back to you. But yeah, everyone reaches out. We're like, Wow, this is just so nice. But yeah, this, this email was really a gift. It really, really was. And it. Yeah, it just, I mean, it's hard to talk about without getting emotional. I know, I know. It it just truly is the best thing and it, it, it makes us feel good that we're, that we're able to kind of even remotely try to be able to do something like that. Yeah. Because, you know, you do this for as long as we have and we've never really wondered, you know, is anyone listening? Because we we know we we've got our audience, but you don't know, like sometimes like how something, how special it could actually be. Yeah. No idea. And, and that's just such a such a truly, truly valuable, valuable gift to to give and to receive. Yeah, absolutely. And you're right. Like the mission statement, one of the mission statements of this podcast from the beginning was let's just talk about the movies we love. Let's just do that and let's not, you know, we're going to give some negative opinions. Sometimes we're going to share some somewhat negative opinions on this episode, but we're not going to go out of our way to shit on movies because it's so easy to do and movies because movies are not the center of culture anymore. They were this summer, which was awesome with Barb and I, but because maybe once or twice a year when we were kids, movies would take over the culture for X amount of time. And because that's so rarely happens anymore, we're like, Let's just do our little small part to get movies or keep movies in the conversation so that can resonate with anyone. That is great. But the fact that it resonates with him so intensely just really, it genuinely took my breath away and I'm not. Yeah, me too sarcastically. I mean that literally. I was like, okay, So that was that was fun. I'm really glad we gave that attention. Please send us this letters. Any time they make us feel real nice, well, we'll call them out on the pod. But what was cool was that he looped in a mailbag question at the end of his email, and I went, okay, we've gotten a few of those over the past few months. Our last one officially, it was like ages ago, and people love that, but we'll just answer a few today. So that's what we're going to do. We're going to give a spoiler free review of poor things. No spoilers for poor things. We're going to answer these mailbag questions. Then we are going to end with a pretty special What Are you Watching segment? We are going to have a spoiler filled conversation about Bradley Cooper's Maestro, which is on Netflix now, and everyone can see it. By the time this episode is out. The movie will have been live on Netflix for seven, eight days. And I told you, I think this is going to be the movie that people are talking about a lot between Christmas and New Year's. There's usually one we did a whole podcast on Don't Look Up in 2020. This is the last their minds over that. I don't really know what it was last year, I guess Avatar, honestly. But that wasn't really like controversial. But there's usually one movie at home that people are flipping out about and people, people seem to be a few ways about my show. We're going to get into all this. We're going to get into all those at the end of the episode. So that's that's all that's what we're going to do today. Hell yeah. Are you excited? you know it. I need you to do the rest of this podcast and your best Lenny impression. Well, boy, I think that if we move on to the. You know, I love you blond hair. I love your plan to tell you. How do you do that? How do you do? That's good. I just said, God, that's it goes you just when it starts, he's like, really awesome. Barely. You got is it anyway? God. Okay, let's. Okay. Yes, let's move on. Thank you again to our to the person who wrote the email. Sorry, I should have asked if we could say your name, but, you know, also thank you to people like John Klein. People like a mind on fire. Our friends from Twitter, if you like my friend Taylor, who literally lets me know before I even listen to every episode, he's let me know what he thinks of the episodes. I have a good friend, Tim, who listens every episode. Just everyone. Everyone. Thank you. Thank you. Seriously, all of our mad movie buffs, you guys are the best and we really, really do love you. And thank you so much for letting us into your ears. Into your ears? Yes. And now we're going to let poor things into our hearts. Really rock it. Yes, it does. This movie. Did you like it? Okay. You like it? I know you saw it, but. Okay. I did not know you loved it. Yeah, I haven't we've we haven't talked about this at all, so I saw it the day it was available to see the Thursday that it came out. I drove into DC to see it like the 7 p.m. show and really liked it and then saw it at 10:30 a.m. on Sunday. So just three days later. So I have two viewings under my belt. And it just had I mean, it's a lot to take on first know, it's like a feast. It's a feast going on and a lot of different regards. So the second time I could not focus so much on the story and just focus on the feast of Everything. But what are your, you know, initial takeaways from it? I really, really loved it. And any fan of Yorgos is going to love this. Yeah, just well, yeah, I mean, you go into Yorgos movie and you kind of just throw all caution to the wind because you just don't know what you're going to get. So this is no exception. And I was just I mean, I went through all the emotions with it. It was it was so funny. I thought it was one of the funniest movies I've seen in a very long time. I appreciated its audacity and its edginess, but it's also it took care of everything to in a tasteful way. It actually has a wonderful, wonderful message in it. It does, yes. Yeah, actually. Really? Really. I think yeah, I think it's a super, super empowering film for women. yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It's yeah, crazy good this way. And but you wouldn't, you wouldn't imagine how it could get there the way that it does, like the fact that it pulled that off in the way that it did is just mind boggling. And yeah, it's a feast. It really is. It's a visual feast. It's a mental feast. The movie, it seems like it's seemingly on fire the way that it moves because you just don't know where it's going to go at any moment. And yeah, and wherever it does, it's the best possible place it could have gone. That's the only way I can kind of like think of, like, scene. The scene? Yeah. How they were going to go. I was just like, surprised, pleased, shocked and taken by every step of the way. This movie. God, I love hearing all this. We had the exact same reaction just to everything. It's, you know, this I don't I look up nothing about movies before I see them. I was texting you that I had not even looked at the poster for this movie. So there is someone who pops up. It is a third act. You don't want to say cameo, but someone comes in and steals the movie. And the third actor, you know, it's just, it's so great. There's got to be a term for it where they just boom, coming on screen. And I had no idea. And we're going to have to decide if we mention him on the podcast or not. I don't know. Anyway, for movies like this, I'm like, What the hell could the logline be for this look on IMDB? Like, how do you categorize it? So I actually copy and paste it. The incredible tale about the fantastical evolution of Bella Baxter, a young woman brought back to life by the brilliant and unknown orthodox scientist, Dr. Goodwin Baxter. So that's okay. That's like pretty surface level, but so just to go like, you know, a few steps deeper. Emma Stone plays Bella, and Bella is unique, certainly. Yes. I don't want to reveal why she is the way she is, but there is certainly a developmental change within her as the movie goes on. And I mean, I didn't know any of this. I didn't know what the story was going to be. So I'm about like and they don't you know, it's not like they string you along and then you find out like they like you said, they're they're carrying you and they're delivering everything. Exactly the way it should. Yes. It's not like in the very first scene, there's some diagram explaining to us why she is the way she is. No, they wait, you know, 20 minutes and reveal like chunk of information, then wait another bit of time and you get a chunk of information. So you're putting everything together and you're like, okay, okay, this is really dangerous. Like, how are they pulling this off? How are they doing this? I mean, first of all, you would just have to have actors who are so completely willing to go for it. Yeah. And when I was watching the movie, I realized very quickly, okay, so everyone in this movie is going to be naked, both literally and figuratively. And they are the whole thing is a high wire act. There's absolutely no hiding in this movie. You have to be completely unafraid to make a fool of yourself and know that in making a fool of yourself, that's actually the take. This could be on film, like that's not your war, but that's actually the thing. And every what I texted you was that that is the freest movie I've seen of the year. Everything about it just feels so free in the best way. That's a great way to say it. There's always there's always an expression that I hear a lot in the world of acting. Is that like in order to actually be good at it, you cannot be afraid to make a fool of yourself. You cannot be afraid to fail to try something, fall flat on your face and be and have fun. In that it seems like every single actor, that's exactly what they're doing in all of this. It's crazy how Yorgos works with his actors because I've heard there's a lot of rehearsal. Well, did you hear about this one specific? This one specifically was different from the other ones. Yeah. Yeah. And I really have to credit Emma Stone for all this things that I've heard her kind of go on record about saying about her personal kind of producer like approach to this movie. Like she really kind of got hands on in almost every aspect of this movie from the costumes that she was wearing to where she was at at each phase of the movie. And having those conversations with Yorgos, That's a that's a leader right there. yeah. And she is a credited producer on the movie, which is. Yes, she is. Yeah. The remarkable. And yes, she's front and center the entire film. It's her right there. And her character does go through an evolution. So having to track that, Yes. While you're filming would have been so immensely difficult because for starters, they don't film movies in order. Yeah. So the first kind of chunk of the movie, in the last chunk of the movie, they filmed those back to back. And there's a huge change within Bella from that, from the beginning to the end. And to have to do that would have been that's just a technical marvel in and of itself. And I love calling that stuff out as a way to give credit to the actors. I think it's the most impressive thing about her performance is that it's the tracking. Yeah, exactly where she is. Because you feel it as you're watching. This doesn't ruin anything. You feel it as it goes on, but you don't. You're not thinking that it's happening. You're just. No, I did not think that at all the first time I watched it. Yeah, it's very subtle. Yeah. I thought I go, Wow, we are like, growing with her. I at one point I go, This is just amazing that she's kind of got this specificity of this, that the arc, I suppose, you know, it actually reminded me this is a great compliment, but in a completely different way. It it was as fluid and kind of amazing to watch as Denzel and Malcolm X because we go through those. Yeah, because those phases of his life. Well, he's educating himself as the movie goes on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It doesn't ever once in that movie feel like, this was a weird change. And now all of a sudden it's rare to hear. I felt like it was just a seamless upward progression. Yeah, and that's exactly how this was, too. It's like reading. I don't know if you ever read Flowers for Algernon. It's a book about someone who gets, like, some sort of brain surgery, a guy who has developmental disabilities. So when you start the book, it's very kind of poorly written because it's all written by him. And then as you go on, he's getting more intelligence. So it gets it's really interesting. So the writing gets better. that's true. That's very cool. Yeah. And they made a movie about Cliff Robertson called Charlie. I think you won. Can I do it? I think you were an actor in 68. Yeah. He's the uncle from Sam Raimi's Spider-Man movies. Like, okay. Uncle Ben. Yes. In Poor Things there is like, it's changing, but it's not. It's not abrupt where, you know, okay, okay. We missed a lot of time there because we got like a lot of time with her is accounted for. So when it makes these leaps, it just does it. Yeah, very subtly. And that's all credit to her. It is. And the way they did this, I heard they spent ten days just rehearsing, but they barely looked at the script. They just did like animal exercises. You could probably speak to this better than I can animal work like circus stunts, just like he's like we were. I've heard Rothblatt talking about this. I've heard Emma Stone. They were just like this traveling circus that when you got there on the day to film, you had to be able to just let it all go and act a fool. And I even heard Ruffalo say that on his first day. He was terrible. Like he was really, really bad and just doing way too much. And Yorgos came over and was like, You we already did this. We did this for ten days. And you don't need you don't need a mug to the camera. You need to kind of let it go. So they actually threw out all of his first day of shooting. Wow. It's a really kind of it's really big for Ruffalo to admit that. And then really, what a what Like a fantastic hands you're in as an actor for to know a director will do that to distrust and go, okay, cool. You know, we'll make it up. We'll make it up and we'll just do it the next day. It was like a scene with him and Willem Dafoe sitting at a table and talking, and he was just, you know, too big. And then they they tapered it back and found found the right balance because he's we'll talk about it, but he's big as hell this movie. But so you know but that's what I mean it's all this high wire walking on a razor's edge act because you can go too big. But then you you also have to fit in with the tone of everyone. It's just so that's what those ten days rehearsing would afford you. Well, that's because when you are working with something so specific in its tone, everyone has to be on the same page. Every actor. Because if you're not, the the humor isn't going to come out. The the the world that we're in, Yorgos is all of his movies are like this. Like if you really if you when you watch Killing of a Sacred deer fuck you can see like every single character in that movie behaves a certain type of way. And it's so different from this. But every single character in this is a certain kind of way, and the movie's whole entire humor, poignant moments, all of this and that will not land unless everyone kind of knows that this is where we're at. Yeah, that that does take rehearsal because you can't just show up on the day and expect you have to be in that world. And then, then then as you say, kind of like ride that high wire. Yeah, yeah. So let's talk about the actors because Emma Stone is Bella Baxter. We're her first movie was Superbad. So we've like, we've watched her career grow in real time, you know, Zombieland, Easier, easier. Featuring a supporting turn by Nick Doe. Still, they're sort of in the background of the classroom. Well, yeah, your beloved crazy, stupid love. So we're watching her grow. She gets to Birdman, where she's playing this angsty daughter that I thought was really refreshing. We hadn't seen that from her. It's her first Oscar nomination, and then she's in la la land and very quickly poised to become the next young aunjanue of Hollywood, the next young best actress Oscar winner. I like la la land. I still like her in it. I still I still don't think that movie, the end of that movie gets the credit it deserves. Yeah, I think it's a gut punch of tragic acceptance. Yes, it is really, really like that. And I'm glad she won best actress for it. That's fine. And two years later, she's in the favorite. And that is completely different than anything she's done. She's you don't really know it when you're watching it for the first time. It takes a while to catch on. How how vindictive, spiteful, manipulative she is. I love her in that movie she was in. she started a family, had a child. She was in Cruella, which was a massive hit. And now she's crushing 2023. So leading up to 2023, what are just your general, you know, Emma Stone thoughts? I know we've talked about her, but yeah, I've always been a fan. I've always thought she offered something very, very refreshing. She she's one of those people where no matter when she's on screen, you're looking at her. She, she she's got that it factor. She's got that movie star type of quality. But she's very real about it. Like all of her performances are very she's never really playing the star. She's always kind of like I think that that's sort of what makes her star quality, is that she never kind of comes off as that. But she has that. I've always just been waiting for the the true actor to come out because I'm like, it's their I've always seen them like you can do. Her range is crazy and I always believe her in everything she's ever done. But I was like, Let's see the let's get weird. And the favorite was really the first one to do it. Yeah. And there's the in Birdman it was they're like, she's had like, almost like a very good progression, like her character in this in terms of her acting career. She started out Yeah. And then just just keep going up. And now, I mean, this is just this is a this is an all time performance. It really is. And she's she's having one hell of a year. I would say the actors strike really, of all the people it hurt. It really hurt her. A lot because she has a show going on right now called The Curse on Paramount, Plus, of which I'm watching every episode. This is Nathan Fielder. You made Nathan for you. The rehearsal, the suit thrives off cringe comedy. He's some sort of cringe comedy genius, but the curse is way, way different. Fielder and Benny Safdie created the show together, and Safety is the costar of the show with Shields and Emma Stone. And it is just so strange. I love it. I've loved every episode. I've laughed, I've been really scared at times, and Emma Stone's just absolutely vile in it. She is complete, entitled Trash. Amazing. A gross person. There's damn, there's nothing redeemable about her. And it's it's something I've never seen for a before. It. I'm like, my God, It's so that's been a joy to watch. And then boom, yeah, December we have poor things which is going to get her nominated for an Oscar. If she had not won for La la Land, she would. She'd be in very serious competition to win this. Like, it would be tough. She would have been in serious competition to win the Oscar for the favorite as well. But she would be up there. I, I still think that's Lily Gladstone's I do think best actresses I don't know though it's early who knows early. It's early yet she is so good as Bella just yes following her from place to place interacting with different person different person. And we're watching her discover herself in many different ways sexually. Of course, that's a big focus of the movie, which we'll talk about, but just in every way. And what I noticed as we go along is I went, this person is a play whatever word you want to it, young, naive, all this stuff. But she never lies. She always stays true to who she is, even if that means having incredibly difficult conversations with men in her life. And it's always men who react poorly to her speaking her mind and speaking not her truth, just the truth. She always tells the truth. And it's, you know, we're we're reserving a lot of things about Bella, about Emma Stone's arc, just about the movie in general, because I really want people to go and watch this. And it's, you know, it's being this is getting the old school slow release. It's doing you know, it was in New York, in L.A. and then just slowly, slowly. And I think that's going to serve it well, because this movie is not for everyone. No, it's not. Know your ghost? Yeah. No, your ghost movie is. And I love that he wears that as a badge of honor. There's nothing in this movie that is crass or profane. There is a lot of sex and sexuality in it, but it was never, like, titillating. It was never. with this, you know, the male gaze. It was actually done in a way so often it was comical that you just got used to it, which I think is the point. It just became like Emma Stone is said, like just wallpaper, like she goes by the end of the movie. I just want my body to be like wallpaper. Like it shouldn't matter. And I love that. I think that surfaces the movie so well, and that's all credit to her. That is exactly what happened. I think that's exactly what happened. And there's a there's almost like a musicality to it, too, which really kind of enforced like whenever those scenes were going on, it really wasn't about that. It was about what is this actually doing for her? It didn't it didn't exploit anything. And yeah, and it became a tonal piece that Yeah, that's what it was. Yeah. I of course again agree with all that. I think this is in contention with being her best work yet her best work to date. I've heard people saying that they're not wrong when they say it. And I'm not just saying that or tossing out there as a take because the movie is so new. But the first time she goes up to Willem Dafoe and asks to go out, she says something like, Bella wishes to go out and you hear him off screen go out and she just her face gets so big and contorts. And she goes, Yes, out like that. And I started to I laugh, forget I did it both times. And so, yeah, she was making me crack up. And then by the end again, no spoilers. I was tremendously moved by a few scenes and I was like, Wow, they. I never would have thought you could stick this landing. And my God, did they ever. And that's credit to everyone. And I think a big part of the sticking of this landing lands on Willem Dafoe. His job in the movie is to is to kind of be the Mr. Exposition. Let us know the truth about a lot of things and let us know what's really going on here. That could have turned the movie on so many complicated ways. If he wasn't as good as he is. Yeah, like he just sort of says things. Yeah, you spin that in a way where he has an opinion and sometimes he does. But even those he states quite matter of factly, yeah, it allows us to just accept it and then take it how we want and then go with how the rest of the movie is going. It's a very, very, very cool performance to watch him do because he's not the one going for it. Right. This movie really, he's the one that's grounding it, actually. And this is the his makeup says different. Well, that's what's so interesting about it. Yeah. You needed 4 hours to get that makeup on every day, 2 hours to get off. But it is a crowded performance. Yeah. If his face just look normal, you'd be like, that's like a okay, it's like a grounded performance. But he because he's so difficult to look at and he knows that he doesn't even want to go to like the market because he thinks because he knows he scares the kids. But then he's just a sweet guy and he, you know, he's playing playing Dr. Godwin Baxter, who, you know, you don't really realize for a little bit. But she keeps Bela will keep talking about God, this person God and you think she's talking about, you know, the God Almighty. But that's her name for God. Did I just love that every time she so confused people, it it was so great. And their relationship, it could go so many different ways. We all know the ways it could go. He's her creator, her caretaker, and it's just so sweet. It's so genuinely tender. And they really do love each other in just such a deeply platonic and meaningful way. I really enjoyed it. Yeah. And yeah, his performance, you know, Willem Dafoe is just he's one of those actors that we we just we all take him for granted because he's always great. He's never not great. We do. We take him for granted. Just imagine the shitty Willem Dafoe performance. He'd be like, How? Like he's. Yeah, he's just always great. And this is another one that he's great. And and Mark Ruffalo is getting a lot of the supporting actor attention, but we're going to see if they double up here. We're going to see if it's best for them. And it very, very easily could be. Absolutely it is. It's there's always that movie where, I mean, I think we're going to get a lot of those, to be honest. Like, I think, you know, we're going to get a lot of these doubling up performances. Yeah. This year because you've got you've got the May-December situation, you know, with Natalie and Julianne. I think that's going to be a big double thing. You got this with anyone pretty much. You throw the name out there. Killers of the Flower Moon, same thing. So yeah, it'll be interesting. I mean, Oppenheimer, for God's sakes, there's. You could have Downey and, like, you could throw Damon in there. You could, like, there's. There's much. Yeah. What would. What would it be crazy for Oppenheimer. They can't do it and they shouldn't. This would be ultimately category fraud. We're going to go on just a little tangent because it's, you know, Oppenheimer, if Emily Blow never got the movie more, if she was in the movie more, they could have run her as best actress. And then it would be one of the very rare films to be nominated in all four acting categories. Yeah, that would just be cool. But that that's not going to happen. They're going to run. I don't know. Maybe Blunt will be nominated in supporting. I don't think Florence Pugh will. I don't. I don't know. Maybe we'll see. But I don't know. Maybe we'll see. Yeah, that's that's a really interesting one to bring up the performance because that's just something that got so, so much odd. Flack I haven't seen a response to consensual brief love scenes in a movie like she got for Oppenheimer in ages. Like it's been to the point where it was kind of getting a little culturally concerning to me. Like they rerelease that we made fun of it, that I was going to go see it again in IMAX, which I did, and people were like very nervous in the theater when those scenes came on and some guys were laughing. A lot of women looked away and I was like, Wow, we're really so this really is a thing. And I'm not making too, you know, it's whatever. But I did text you, you know, kind of in jest, but I went, What happens if one of those people steps into poor things? which just has tons and tons and tons of sex scenes. And it both of my screenings. There have been some people in there that did not know that's what this movie was going to be about. But, you know, every scene in the movie, every romantic scene is consensual. There are different there's so many of them. But like we're saying, they're never titillating, they're never sensual. So it's it you know, that we're going to I don't know. It's just a whole different subject. But I really thought of Florence Pugh a lot in that performance and how it just made. There were so many think pieces written about it and all this stuff, and I'm not seeing that reaction to poor things yet. Maybe that's just because it's what poor things is. It's just in the text of that movie. It's about a woman discovering her sexuality. And I guess Oppenheimer isn't about that stuff, but I don't know, a weird year in that regard to me. Very weird. Well, America's just weird about sex. It's getting weirder. It's just like because then you have scenes in May, December where they're going for it. And I haven't heard anyone be critical of those because you shouldn't be like that. It fits within the framework of the movie. Yeah, I don't know. But you have to read it, right? I mean, yes, sexuality in film needs to be treated the correct way for its tonal piece and it needs to be handled correctly. But just because a movie has sex in it, it's like I'm like, What are we talking about here? It's like, I don't know. I don't know if people know this, Alex, But sex has been going on for a long time. How long? Like, forever? Yeah, I think so. Did did Adam and Eve do it or were they related? I mean, well, I mean, that's a tough one because I think they were. I think especially like, I guess we took whatever we can get off this subject because I know it's weird for the two of us to talk about, but it's something I just think about it a lot. And maybe because we were so socialized with this stuff when we were growing up and I was always critical when I became a teenager and in my twenties, I would often be very critical of sex scenes in movies because a lot of times when we were growing up, it would just have them in there and it's like, All right, you don't need to have this. Like, well, I'm on a this is kind of related to an upcoming episode we're doing, but I'm watching a lot of spy thrillers, like 70 spy thrillers. And I watched The Parallax View with Warren Beatty, which is like just fucking remarkable. It's it's essentially like a remake of the JFK assassination. Great movie. That movie is an hour and 42 minutes. And then right away, I watched Three Days of the Condor. Robert Redford, Faye Dunaway, director directed by Sydney Pollack. That's 2 hours. There's a stupid fucking love scene between Redford and Dunaway. The middle of it, like, doesn't need to be there. I'm like, This is so stupid. But that's just what most movies like that did. Yeah, but with an absence of that in The Parallax View, I was like, wow. Like, I don't. I didn't need that scene in Three Days of the Condor. So I'm no stranger to being critical of them, too. Like, you're kind of slow in the movie down, but like, it didn't. So the movie Down and Oppenheimer Three Days of the Condor goes on for like four or 5 minutes, like, you guys like Jesus Christ, I get it. And, you know, the music and the slow fades and all that stuff. I don't know. I don't know. But obviously you've changed a lot as a society in a lot of ways. But we've been very careful to talk about scenes of sexual assault on this podcast as it relates to Irreversible or Gaspar in a way, and talking about that, telling a very fine line, but well, there needs to be a purpose. Yeah, I knew we were going to talk about sex in movies on this episode. I had it in the outline, so yeah, we're doing it now. Yeah, there needs to be intention mind. There needs to be purpose. Like whenever I recommend shame to someone they know and then they watch it, they're like, What the fuck is wrong with this guy? Like that movie? It's so much. I go, I know. But that's like, that's the purpose of the movie. Like movies about alcoholics have a lot of drinking, too. It's just it's just, you know, I get it though it's not for everyone. It, it yes and yes. We're being funny and taking the piss out of things. Yes. Sex. Sex has been going on for like at least a couple hundred years. I think that's how long people have been having it. I mean, at least the last 20. Yeah, well, that's 20 off often. That's why people got so upset over Alpha Deibert. God, yeah. But I mean, maybe this is something to clarify. If you have an issue with these scenes, that's all you That's good, That's cool. I get it. I have certain issues with scenes in movies too, and I'm not like, you have a right to not want to see this shit in film. Consensual. Otherwise, whatever. That's all good, But we're just kind of like making the case for it that especially in the case of poor things, they, they handled it so well. And it was so as a part of the fabric of the movie that I just I really didn't have a problem with it. And maybe that's the thing. Maybe people would say in Oppenheimer, it was not a part of the fabric of the movie, and you could have easily just cut those out. I think especially the one in the hearing room where it's an imagination of Emily Blunt's character. I think people have a lot of issues with that one, but I didn't think it would be such a point of conversation this year, those two scenes. And Oppenheimer, who knows? Anyway, anyway, let's talk about sex babies. Willem Dafoe does not have any love scenes in the movie. We can all be thankful for that now. man, that was wishing. I love it. Love Willem Dafoe. I don't. Of course, that conversation about Willem Dafoe took us right into sex. But, you know, that's that's all in the game. Natural. It's natural. God, he is great. He is someone that we take for granted. That was the point. Body of evidence. Well, speed to cruise control. Come on, now. It's great with the leeches. The leeches? I love that copper out of my blood. Well, I cannot quote him at all. Good job. I wouldn't be able to do that for that movie. All right. Who's next? Ramy Youssef. I've heard of I've seen him win awards for his show. Ramy on Hulu. Have you seen Ramy? I've never seen it. I've seen actually that Rami was a show that I started and fell off of, which I don't know why because I'm a huge fan of his. Yeah, it just happens. But I his work as a comedian. see, I have not. I have not at all. This has missed me. you need to watch. You love him. There's a special. You have, like, specials. Yeah, I believe. I do not. Forgive me. I don't know the name of it, but I do remember it being on HBO. It was from a few years ago feeling. It looks like it's called. It might be. Yeah, it's the it's the greatest outro any comedians ever ended a set with. In my opinion that I've seen. It was it's a it's a truly, truly great and and it's he's he's very very good And if we're talking about him in this movie yeah I was a little as to whether or not he was going to be able to pull off something like this. And yeah, to my surprise, he was excellent excellent. He was great. This is like his first major movie role. Apparently, he was great. Very, very happy for him. I like his work. I like his style. You know, I yeah, comedians that we like, it's can be fun to watch them crossover into films. But a movie is risky. Is this? Yeah. I bet you were nervous. I've been nervous watching some comedians that I really like doing that, but he was great. His character's name is Max MC Candles and I love how Bella just calls him candles for the first few visits. And, you know, he comes in, he's a doctor along with Doctor God. And yeah, again, don't want to say too much, but he serves as a nice like heart of the film. And, you know, there's a lot of shithead men in the movie and he's not one of them. And I like that. And he he plays it so well. So. Well, I, I think he serves a very, very, very meaningful role in probably the way a lot of women look at certain men. Sure. Sure. He's he's the nice guy. He he's he's the guy. He's the guy you marry and take home the mom. Not necessarily the guy you jetset around the country. Yes, exactly. And the way that they kind of just posed him and the way that they handled him and the way that she handles him. And then it's so good and it's so good. And he is the heart. He he carries it even when it feels far away. He carries heart because that jet setter, though, someone who definitely does not have all the best of intentions and plays a total shithead, is Mark Ruffalo coming in? Is Duncan Wedderburn, who I mean, I don't this guy comes in and sweeps Bella off of her feet and they go set out on, you know, a world venture together, picking some very random places. I thought, but this is this guy is really going for it in this movie. I have loved him since he showed up playing Laura, Lenny's stoner, aimless brother, and You Can Count on Me, which is just a really a very, quite simple but towering performance. And it's subtlety and simplicity. I just kind of love him in that movie, and I've loved him ever since, and I love that he and Downey are likely going to be nominated in the same category this year. You know, they both did the Marvel thing together. Now they're back on their prestige film Kick. I, I just love Ruffalo. He's an always great actor who is actively getting better. It's wild. This is right up there with some of his best work somewhat, you could say that like he he's going to give Downey a run for his money for this Oscar this year. This he's so good in this and completely and utterly outrageous, so big but never loses you. And the amount of times he made me crack up without saying a word or if a word was just I'll just dying. This is a great performance. Like, truly, he's an all timer for me. I know what I want to talk about it. Let's go. Ruffalo has always been for me. When I was younger, he was a guy I looked up to. I loved his outlook on acting. I loved the choices he took. I loved every time I could hear him in an interview talk about acting is that was resonating with me. So to be able to kind of watch someone that you look up to in that way and see their career just keep getting better and better and better. And it's like it's like teaching me, like every time I watch a mark Ruffalo performance, I'm going to school now and this is just no different. And I mean, just he's alive in every single scene. Like like the camera doesn't stay on him very much. Like he like those those shots you were talking about where if you just catch his face, just watch what he's doing. He's doing something and it's amazing. yeah. Tiny little subtextual looks you don't know where he's going to go next. He's so unpredictable. It's unpredictable. And you just watch it and you just let the ride take you and. And it's also really cool to hear that story you talked about, where it's like, here's an actor who is not just by what I've just said, in my opinion, but he's regarded in the industry as, you know, one of the top guys. And to even know that, like on the first day it it didn't it didn't work, it failed. And to kind of realize that no matter how good you are, it's still the work and and you got to rise to it. And that's it's a very, very good example of it doesn't matter how long you've been doing it, how good you are at it. Every new project is like starting brand new and you've got to find your way. And then, you know, then he just soars. I love him. I loved him in it. We're saving a lot of the discussion about him for, you know, people to actually go and see the movie. But there's one part when she like leaves a room and he just shakes his head like, yeah, yeah. I aggressively this bad. It's another part where he's angry and he just points at a bar. He's like, Walk to the bar, just fucking slams his head. my God. And I was dying laughing. It's so quick and shocking. It sounds so painful. People screamed at the theater when it happened. Both times. I see. They're like, Wait, what a great. And yeah, his his whole transformation of Mr. you know Casanova suave to what he goes to is just fantastic fantasy right right to you know his final few seeds or he's literally like hiding just cowering. But I'd love to So those are those are our stars. And I want to call out some of the supporting cast really quickly. I'm going to butcher this name, Hannah Chagla. She was she plays Martha, who's that blond woman on the boat? She is full of so much wisdom. I knew I recognized her from somewhere, but I couldn't place her. She was in this amazing German Turkish film from 2007 called The Edge of Heaven. It was nominated for the Colline Palme d'Or. It is. She plays a grieving mother in it. I just. my God. I really want to. I never have a chance to ever talk about that movie. She's so good at it. She was really good in this. She's amazing voice. Yeah. Yeah. Jerrod Carmichael had a few good scenes. He he had, like, a really critical scene when he shows Bella a different side of the world. DiBella has, you know, never seen because she's lived most of her life in one house. So that was really effective. And handing that off to him, you know, talking about, like comedians, can they step up? And he did a good job. I thought he played it really well. Katherine Hunter as the Paris madam. I loved her. She was and she was in Andor. I haven't watched that show, but she was also the witch, The witches in Joel Coen's The Tragedy of Macbeth. Another one you know her? Where do I? Yeah, she got that voice like she was. She was so good. She was so good. Vicki Pepperdine played Ms.. Prim. She was a maid in the house. That is Edna from our beloved Magic Mike's last dance. Yeah, the woman on the board. Did they have to persuade? Loved that. And then we have to just kind of heavy hitters who in toward the end Margaret Qualley as Felicity who was just great. Always great to see her. And then Do I say it? Do I say the last one? yeah, we can, but I just got to make a shout out to Margaret Qualley Please do, please do. Because please, that was a that was a ballsy role for her to take because. yeah, she's like barely doesn't. But, but it's like, Let me get on set for Yes. Why as people play let me Yes that's exactly what the spec for that I do too Star right now. Yeah. So respect for that. I love that she showed up in the role that she did and just, you know and did what she did with it and then and that was it. I have a lot of respect for her. And then come on, we got to see these on the poster. We can say it. He is. He's on the poster. I looked at it after my second viewing by name and his little picture there, but just toward the end, I mean, the camera, like you hear this voice yell off screen and like the most contrived setting imaginable. It's the movie setting. I don't even want to say what it is, but we've seen it so many times in movies, this exact scene. And then they handle it differently and the camera pans over and there's Christopher Abbott, a beloved Christopher Abbott, who we talk about all the time on the podcast. I had no idea he was in this movie and I gasped because we love him so much. And I went at it just to see the character he plays. I mean, no spoilers, but a fucking shithead mobster. And I'm like, my God, he's doing it. He's doing it. And again, like, I did not know no role in the movie. It's thankless, but it's a small part. But there are no small parts. Absolutely seizes it. And now, I mean, who knows, maybe he's in Yorgos is like next movie in the movie after that, Yorgos is only 50 years old. I really hope he's going to be making films for a very, very long time. Everyone in this movie, I mean, Willem Dafoe is 68, but that dude cranks out that dude had like one good movie or one good performance since like 1986. Every year, like every year, he just gives her 85 because that's to live a day in L.A. He just always gives a great performance, like at least once a year. And then everyone else in the movies, like young Emma Stone, still has her whole career ahead of her. ABBOTT So yeah, why not just do a few scenes in this movie and then you're paying off doing something bigger down the line? I love seeing him in this. I had no, no, no idea that he was going to be in it and just loved him. Has one of my favorite facial moments I've ever seen in this movie. One of the best is all types Stare at the Spacey's facing out. My God. So dying, laughing. I was laughing way more, way harder the second time knowing what was coming and just I mean, like in hysterics and. God, it really. Yeah. It takes you all the way through it because he scared me. He genuinely. yeah, You know what? so now we're getting like I. This is unpredictable. I do not know where we're going from every, like, ten minute chunk to the next. I don't know where this movie is going, but. And then, yeah, you're just in such good hands. Such such good hands. Yeah. Talk about your guts really quick. Well, keep this quick, because I don't know. Obviously, we're fans and I want to talk about all of his films very, very briefly. His first one is pretty hard to find. It's a little easier now. It's called Canada, and it is. I'm probably mispronouncing that. It was released in 2005 and it's about a few friends in like an abandoned motel resort motel who I believe they just reenact like crimes. They're just kind of staging crimes. It's very, very sparse. Some of his early movies extremely sparse. 2009 is his real big breakthrough. He makes a movie called Dogtooth. I don't you can say 2 hours a night. It was nominated for Best Foreign Film in 2011. So I don't know, these fucking years, these dates. Well, it's crazy. This is my favorite Yorgos film. It has always been that way. And if you started with Dogtooth, like I did nothing in his subsequent films shocks you because that movie is so shocking and set me up for his sentiment and his taste. So well. I cannot recommend that highly enough. The majority of the movie takes place in one house. The movie is in Greek. It is so the imagination that it takes your soul conversations. It's not to say, Have you seen it? I've seen it. Yeah, I didn't know that. yeah, yeah, I'm talking about it like you haven't seen it. God, I didn't know that. Like, okay, dude. So, like, Jesus Christ, where that goes from the first scene, like, you're watching it, you're like, Wait a minute, something's really off here. But it's just words. You may think you're watching like a sci fi film, but you're you're not. And just The Revenant, the revelations that come out with it. And I just bought that on Blu ray and gave it to my dad for his birthday, and he watched it with his friend. My dad loves Yorgos. You watch this, Fred. It called me and I knew what he calls. I was like, Call me and let me know after. And when I picked up, he was just laughing. He was like, my God. I went, I know. It's crazy. I need Jesus. It's crazy. I did not know you'd seen it. my God. I see that actually, a long time ago, because it was when the lobster was coming out and you were like, You got to check this out. I was like, That was when we first met. So you were like, just. Yeah, fill me with, like, all these movies to watch and that I think there's one that's probably got lost in the shuffle and I probably need to rewatch it again because I did like it though, but I don't think I was paying attention to it the way I needed to. Yeah, it's so good. It was nominated for the Oscar. I can't idea. I just I love that one. And rewatching it I went, yeah, it still is my favorite with and I do not see that as a slight to his other work at all at all. Now next, a lot of people think he jumped from Dogtooth because that was like his breakthrough to the lobster. But there's actually this small one called the Alps in the middle. It came out in 2011 is a really weird movie to describe, so I was lazy and copy pasted a logline from Wikipedia. The people in the movie, it's about, you know, just a handful of people like a group. They're known as Alps. And these are members who offer for a fee to act as the recently deceased during visits to grieving relatives. So like if someone had a son recently die, like in a tragic accident a mom did, I could go and, like, spend time with the mom and kind of, like, behave like the son. man. Yeah. But the issue is that what I just said is not clear in the movie. And like, the first time I saw this, I had no fucking clue what was going on, because it's. This is his most sparse film. Sparse. Most sparse. I don't know. I didn't major in math, so it's really hard to kind of track like in real time. And because it is sparse, I went back and revisited it before the favorite. It just it loses me on viewings and I can't I can't stay engaged. And I think that's kind of the consensus for it. A lot of people don't have, you know, and that's okay. That's okay. I always want to go back and revisit and be like, Did I miss something? Is there something I can latch onto? But then four years later is the lobster, which is his huge kind of break out. It's his first movie in English. Colin Farrell. Colin Farrell, Rachel Wise Like I yeah, what Colin Farrell does in this, I mean you I always like to say you and Dan got to see Yorgos and Farrell. I think at a Q&A for this movie after it happened, and that just must have been great. But I love lobster. I love this movie. It was it was one of the coolest things to hear them talk about that rehearsal process and how Yorgos basically gave him no direction. So that that that whole entire speech rhythm that they formed was all because that just sort of happened amongst the actors. And the actors were like. TAKADA Yeah. And they're like, Should we just move ahead with this? And Yorgos wouldn't say no. So they're like, He didn't tell us not to say it. So yeah, that's and that's what I've only seen twice. I own Dogtooth Lobster and the next two, which I, for some reason I like don't want Why don't I want to spoil it. Names so stupid. Yeah. So I've only seen it twice but yeah it's, there are scenes of it that are quite unsettling, but it has a tone that you can't really say, you know, put your finger on. Can we get to the killing of a sacred deer, which is like kind of like a horror movie, Like it's shot like one. It's kind of the sound design in the music. It's like, what? And this is just I mean, I've seen this movie so many times. I love this movie. It I guess you can call it a comedy. I do think it's hilarious. It is so darkly All these movies are so darkly. Yes. Comedic in this thing. I mean, you're either laughing when he's spinning around in that chair at the end or you're not. And I guess there's no right or wrong way to go about it. But, you know, and of course, this movie on a major scale introduced this all to Barry Keoghan, who's I mean, kind of steals the movie he does for something we had never heard of. He steals it. Yeah, I love this movie. The favorite was the next year. It was crazy. Got back to back Yorgos movies and the favorite is another one that what's crazy is that broke through and got him nominated. It was nominated for so many Oscars and it's like, wow, he did like he's using these crazy fisheye lenses. Yeah, it's a period piece. It wasn't really poised to win any. And then and one of the great Oscar shocks the last ten years, Olivia Colman. Olivia Colman, this actress over Glenn Close, who didn't get that movie, The wife is just not a good movie. And she's not by virtue of that, she can't be that good in it because it's a movie. I'm sure a lot of the movie is bad, and it would have been a shame to give her. Glenn Close deserves a Best Actress award. I mean, of course, let's all be clear, but not for that. So they give it to Colman and Colman's. Great. It's one of the all time great speeches. I love her speech. I love this movie. Yeah. Yeah. And then Emma Stone's being the vindictive thing. God, I love it. And then now we have poor things, which we've just spent time talking about. So do you have a ranking for these at all? I did. I did. And it's a it's a crazy ranking. Well, for the ones I've seen. For the ones I've seen. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just for the ones I've seen. Well, I'll make it easy for you. I'll put at there's seven total. I will put seven is Canada and six is the Alps. So that should make it easy. Now we can just do these five that we've built. All right, so our top five, our top five. Top five. Yorgos. Yes. Okay. Five. Okay. Number number five for me. I can't believe this is number five, but it's the lobster. wow. Wow. That's the yesterday. it's crazy. I thought that would have been, like, one or two for you. I know. Number five for me. And I would give this movie and a So we're really this is what we're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. It's very delicate stuff. Number five for me is the favorite. yeah. See, I interesting. The number four for me is Dogtooth. wow. Okay, so these are going to be kind of very different. It is number four for me is the lobster. Okay. Okay. All right. So we just had a little as well, like a little, little switch. Answer number three for me is the favorite. Okay. Okay. I see what we're doing. I see we're done. Wow. So you're. Yeah, You're ranking heavy or you're the newest one is ranking high for you, which I love. Number three for me is poor things. okay. You got three at four. Yeah. Okay. All right. Two are. Number two is the killing of a sacred deer. Same here. Boom. We're locked. We're locked for number two. Holy shit. You fucking loved four things, dude. That's your favorite Yorgos movie, if you think about it. I love it. This is exactly my type of movie. It's a Journey movie. So excited for you to see it. Yeah. Yeah. As my structure of how I like to watch a movie. It did everything that I want a movie to do and it me in all the places I had no idea, but I enjoyed every second of it. I know there's a recency bias here, so I will admit that. But if we are just going by like the moment right now, I this movie checked all my boxes and then of course my number one is Dogtooth, which I spoiled earlier. This is making me excited for your top ten of 2023. Honestly this I mean, if it's your favorite. Yorgos That's great. So that's. Wow, that's perfect. Okay. Yeah, I loved it. Real quick to finish up on Poor Things, written by Tony McNamara, who also wrote The Favorite. The movie's based on a novel by Alistair Gray, who passed away. So I guess that's what Yorgos read. And that got this whole ball rolling. The music is by Justine Fredricks first movie score. I love the movie score, love closing song. And what played over the credits. He's probably going to get nominated for an Oscar for this. And as a crazy score, that's like, great. Yeah. Cinematographer Fee by Robbie Ryan, who shot our beloved Red Road fish tank American Honey, nominated for an Oscar for shooting the favorite also shot marriage story production design by Shona Heath. This is her first feature. That's why I wanted to call that out. And James Price, who did The Nest and Iron Claw, which is in theaters now. Yes, it is very good. I'm calling out people who are probably going to be nominated for Oscars. You know, Holly Waddington did the costumes editing by Yorgos. So, boy, Mother. to Yorgos Maro, Tessa dearest, I'm sorry. Yorgos M is the editor who has edited every single Yorgos Lanthimos film. He was nominated for an Oscar for The Favorite. But I love that Oscar chances for Poor Things. I don't have a list, but it's going to be nominated for a lot. Does it win anything? I don't know. Does all the technical awards, says Oppenheimer or the other stuff knock it out? Does it win production design over Barbie? I don't think so. Does it? When costumes over Barbie? I don't think so. So is it a case where so hard? Yeah, it's the a case where they're nominating it like the favorite. Got like nine or ten nominations. And like I said, it was not poised to win any. It thankfully pulled out. ACTRESS It was a huge surprise. Could it be the same thing for poor things? I don't think Emma Stone's going to an actress, but you know, I could see this getting nominated for a bunch and not necessarily winning any, but maybe I would also love a year where we're just spreading the wealth. I don't need Oppenheimer to win ten. I would love to be nominated for Tess. You do both toast to my dude if Oppenheimer one fucking picture director, actor and then some technical ones. Cool. Like sound needs to win. Just everything, you know give it five or six, I'm fine. And then sprinkle like give production design to, you know, I don't I don't want it to just be like Oppenheimer and Barbie winning everything. I really, I don't I don't think could even give director to Marty and I'd be fine with that. I'd be totally fine to give Marty another best director. Totally fine. Or Nolan gets director and kills the flower Moon gets picture. I'm actually okay with that, too. Do you hear me? Academy? Do you hear what I'm telling you? You hear There's no bullshit movies coming out of my mouth right now. Don't do this to me. Had good movies this year. I'll be straight up. I'll be straight fucking up. I hope you would strike straight up if best director goes to Nolan or Martin Scorsese. I am fine with Barbie winning best picture and I'm not joking. Totally fine with it. Totally fine with Barbie representing 2023 in film. If if we are to look at the Oscar best picture winner, which is not the best representation, but I'm okay with that. But best director needs to be taken care of. That's that's fine. Then. Then you have permission to give it to Barbie. So you see what I'm saying? We're spreading the wealth here. I don't think Barbie is going to win Best picture. I don't. I don't think so either. But I'm saying if people think I'd be mad at that, I wouldn't. But you got to like, you got to spread the wealth. You got to take care of stuff and do it. Do it well, there's a way where all these good movies walk away with big awards. Killers of the Flower Moon gets actress, actor goes to maybe Oppenheimer, or maybe, maybe they do the GMAT and they go holdovers, which is being very well liked. So maybe they do that for actor. That's starting to seem more probable. So, you know, that's getting award. Barbie gets a big one. Oppenheimer gets the big one. You could give poor things in there. I'm very passionate about this year. I really am, because these are two movies we're talking about. All right. These are good movies. These aren't bullshit movies. If they if they go, they do left turns and start awarding bullshit performances in movies. Yeah, I'm going to I'm going to have to speak on it because this is this is my truth. This is my truth is, if everyone's being true to who they are, this is my truth. And I can't I can't sit by anymore. As we've been doing this podcast, they've nominated some bullshit and awarded some bullshit because they've been tough movie years. No one's going to disagree that 2020 was a terrible movie year just by virtue that like no movies were released. It's just it's okay. Tenet did come out. Tenet fucked rocks anyway. Yeah. Oscar, it's not even really a rant. It's a warning. It's a warning. A thinly veiled threat to just don't don't fuck this up. There's a way to do this all really, really well to where everyone is happy. Every group is happy past lives. I see you. I see what you're doing. You're repped by A24. You make me nervous Past years. You make me real nervous. Real nervous. Past Lives is a perfect movie to win original screenplay. And it just walks away with that into the night. It just walks away and you have it. And then everything else needs to be taken care of. All the movie, all right. We're going to move on here. You move on to this mailbag. Mailbag questions, Mailbag, maestro. And then we're going home. Okay. Mailbag. We had some fun ones that we've just gotten that we've gotten over some months. This one I'm not doing this to be cute, but I've as I'm asked this question all the time. Mailbag. Question So this episode, how did you two meet? Yes, I've asked this all the time. I think we've explained it here and there. But just yeah, this is one of my favorite questions because it's always followed up with how did you two meet to talk? Because it feels like you two have known each other forever. Yeah, and that's like the best compliment. But we met. It's a great story. We met this good story on the film festival circuit in 2015. I made a feature film. Wait, And then what? you're going to enjoy it because there's a better way to tell this story is there's a price for the reason that I'm not in that feature. Well, yeah, this is true. Okay. Yeah. So this I didn't know this at all at the time, but yeah, I'm. I moved to L.A. and immediately start m in pre-production for my feature film. Wait. You know, I had to hire a bunch of actors, and a lot of the actors came from one specific acting school. Like a literal acting school. Yeah. I basically use like two acting schools to fill out the cast. There is. There is you guys. And then there was another one in North Hollywood that I plucked from as well, which was great. So basically, like all of your friends are in this, everyone, your name is never once, never once floated to me. Never. I mean, you can talk about that. I did not know who you were. No one ever floated you to me and we would have gotten along and I would have give I know exactly which part I would have given in the movie. I know exactly which one we would have gotten on. Obviously like gangbusters. Why connection? Why none of your friends who I was actively working with for like on and off very intensely for three months and then on and off, we in each other's lives for like a year, year and a half, just as I took it through post-production, we did reshoots and yeah, your your name is never mentioned to me. And the first night I meet you is the first time Weight premieres at a festival. And that's the night that I meet you. And I'm like, Who's this? And so, yeah, tell this from your perspective. So my perspective of this is that I was in this acting class and we were like, thick as thieves, like all of us in that class. Like, the best acting work I've ever done was in the confines of this wall, these four walls of this classroom. And I did that work with these actors. So I love them to death. I have a very special place in my heart for that time. Well, one night we're in class and the teacher is like, All right, so-and-so, go up now. And then everyone, literally everyone in the class says, Teacher's name was Fran. Fran Montano. Excellent, excellent, excellent. Huge mentor for me. Everyone was Fran. We actually we all have to go. We have we have a night shoot for something that we're doing. And he goes, okay, great, great. Well, anyone who needs to go for that. And then everyone gets up and I go, You're all in it. And they're like, Yeah. And I go, What? What? Don't want to say anything to me And like and I don't want to toot my own French horn here, but I was one of the better actors in the class. I go hilarious and so I'm like, How does none of this even come my way whatsoever? And everyone's like, That's weird. All right, bye. So fast forward and I'm definitely pissed. I'm like, I'm like, Fuck this. This is. This is all I want to. Yeah. So fast forward. Like, I don't know, it must have been six months to a year after. I don't know how long it took you to edit and then get on the festival circuit from when you were shooting it. It was a little over a year because weekend we filmed holiday season 2013 and you and I met January 2015. Yeah, that's how long this shit takes. So. So now your movies and festivals and everyone from classes like Come Support Nick and I go, yeah, sure, I'll be there. That movie that you all guys did without me that no one told me about, sure, I'll come support. So I was. I was pissed. Like I showed up there and I was doing my best as millions can bullshit, man. But then I watched it and then was just completely floored by. And then my favorite is you were doing a Q&A, a bullshit Q&A with all the other directors that were a part of the thing, and you were dressed all in black because that was your thing. Still is your thing. And someone someone asks you a question about the writing process and you answered in your like something like it had to do with like equating the the hell of writing to drinking. And I go, I like this guy. I like this guy. And then yeah, and then we met at the after party and he said a very similar thing where I because I was, I was about to get ready to do there I go right and right. I wanted, I saw your work as a director and I was like, I would love to talk with this guy. Just any kind of advice he might have. So I asked you that. But you were in mid party like you were the star of the night, so everyone was talking to you. I got like a couple of seconds got in there, introduced myself, said like, Hey, would you mind doing this? And you were like, I said, Can we meet for coffee? Yeah. And you're like, Read to me for a drink. Yeah, I remember very well. But yeah, I remember being introduced and then it being, and then me figuring out like a few weeks or months later that you were a part of that whole group. And I remember asking over and over all of them, like, what no one ever thought to, like, introduce us or all the outings I went and saw there, you know, productions they put on. And so, you know, whatever, that's how, that's how that went. But yes, all that one that night, a few months later, we did meet up for some drinks and you asked me a lot about just the process of like actually making a movie. And then you asked me to come on to shoot your short. There I go. And then, yeah, we formed a very strong creative relationship shooting that. And then you asked me to edit the movie and then like just being in my tiny apartment right there in Hollywood, we. And editing this thing together. Yeah, that's what made us become really close. And then that was just it. And then the crazy thing is, I, from when we met, I left L.A., like a year and a half later. That's when I, like, met her. That's when I left. And then, yeah, we've just stayed, you know, just stayed very, very close. Yeah. It was instant, like, pretty much like once we first really hung out like that, you couldn't really kind of, like, separate us. Yeah, Yeah. And everyone, everyone around us knew it. And then the podcast I will say was it just it was your idea? Of course I do have podcasts and stuff, but my blog had kind of fallen by the wayside in terms of writing and me not being able to make enough time for it and all all that stuff. And you're like, What if we do this? And we talked about it? You first brought this up to me in 2018. I remember I'd just gotten out of Fuck unfriended dark web part two of the Unfriended series and you were like, You see everything? Yeah, I know. You're like, Have you ever thought about having a podcast to talk about it and like us? Then I thought about it for two years and everything, how I wanted to do it, things I wanted to avoid. I just that stuff. And it, it was great. And then so now we've been doing this since, I mean, three years, three years, maybe. Episode 115. It's crazy. And the letter that we got that we talked about, you know, earlier absolutely makes this all worth it. So it's been a fun journey to go on you know together We didn't Another question. This isn't like a mailbag question, but I am asked sometimes how we come up with our episode ideas and topics. And there's some things like he got Game those want to talk about. I've always wanted to talk about that and I just, you know, film in the weeds like really want to do that Malcolm X and then new releases of the year that really pop out to us and we're like, All right, we got to do that. Like, we got to, you know, we got to do Oppenheimer. We knew we were going to do that. We agree on directors to cover a few months in advance and then start chipping away at them. But yeah, it's really just kind of like, I don't know, going with the flow. And part of it is like keeping films in conversation, like I want people to be talking about he got game or I want people to be like, Goddamn it. This movie is not available anywhere. Like, Fine, I'll rent it for 399 and have that be worth it and know that we did not let them down like that. Yeah, so, so it's that. But also I just want to like, talk about the killer, but I don't know how many people are actually articulate. Thank God a lot of people watch the killer and everyone liked it. I wonder. I don't know. I wonder if that I wonder if the killer will get nominated for an Oscar. Like, can you can we give it sound? Can we give it a sound nomination? That's it. That's it. Yeah. Sound. I don't think so, though. So that's it? Yeah. That's how we met and it's. Yeah, we've stayed fast friends ever since. Yeah. We live on, you know, ever since we've had this podcast. We live on opposite sides of the country and we make it work. Yeah. The, the, the whole entire idea of for me for the part was I would read your blog and I'd be like, Man, your writing is so well done. And like, your opinions are so good in the specificity that you could get into on the blog was just so, so bountiful that I was like, you know, but the one thing that people aren't getting that I feel like the readers aren't getting is, is you like your emotion, like the way that you and I would talk. Yeah. And I was like, See, that's what I want to get is like, I want to like because you are and I've always said this, I, well, I've said this people who don't know you that you are the most knowledgeable person about film that I've ever met. And I challenge anyone. And I was like, very nice. And I was like, There's got to be a platform that will be able for you to kind of shine in this way. And I was like, And I'll just be the the other guy to do it. I still feel like that. But, but that, that was the idea that I had for it. Yeah. And then two years later, like, all right, I think we should do it again together. Yeah. Yeah. And it was always the thing where I'm the, the movie obsessed, like, freak. This art form runs my life, all this stuff. And you are someone who loves movies, but I don't think that guy, like, pretty much, you know, damn near every facet of your life like they do for me. Because that's not the way it is for most people. Most people just watch movies and enjoy them. They're not like fucking crazy about him like I am. So that's the kind of counterpoint for it. Like if we were both as crazy as I was, we'd probably be talking about some fucking Danish movie from like 1943 for, you know, 3 hours. I mean, I mean, you could do, which we still could do. I mean, I mean, I remember when our parties are never going to go over an hour and now we've got 4 hours of rule. That was the first rule for me. Everything was going to be like 45 minutes or an hour. And then when we yeah, we weren't going to curse. You are going to do anything. It's it's really fun Sometimes I will occasionally go back and listen to like one of our first ten and we're just so like timid, kind of quiet. Hey, people still like it. People tell me it's cute that we say that's I can live with that. All right. That was great. Let's get on to the question. We got in our email, which was, I just love this. What is this great favorite DVDs that we've owned? You want to go first? You want to take it first or could. Yeah. So. So I have like a list of movies here that for whatever some of them were educational, some of them were just the special features were. So good that like, yeah, I look at it as like, you have to have this with the movie. But I'll start with this one's my favorite one. But now the cool thing is, is that now today because of YouTube, you could actually find and this one in particular you can find on YouTube. So you actually don't need to buy the DVD, but the DVD, the original double disc DVD of Magnolia. great. Call. Yeah. Has got a on the second disc. It's got deleted scenes and it's got a giant, long, weird I can't even call it a documentary. It's a diary. It's. I cannot believe they let him put that on a It's always have that now it is nuts. I'm fairly certain he's like fucked up and some of it like yeah about just yeah it's wild. This is a great call. It's a great call. It's just a great kind of idea to kind of sit through what actually it is like being on a film set. There's no music, there's no quick editing to make this look. It's no, it's the in-between moments of when actors are like, I'm putting my earpiece in. Can I hear from here? Like, All right, what do you like? How is the camera going to be on me here for this? And like, just like and then like, it goes into, like, the post-production stuff and the pre-production. He's talking to the crew. These are the movies I guys want you to watch and think about as we get into this. Like it's a low key, great diary of the making of an entire movie, and I love it for that yeah, it's over an hour long. Yeah, yeah, it's it's really great. That's a great call. His first he has a commentary for hard and then he does a commentary for Boogie Nights. I mean, again, he sounds like he's had a few drinks and the Boogie Nights commentary. It's an all timer. And then he didn't do a commentary. He hasn't done a commentary since, which is a bummer. But yeah, those nights DVDs like the Boogie Nights one has, it has some good deleted scenes and stuff, but it does not have a making of diary like Magnolia. Yeah. Yeah. I think he's never. It's a great call. Yeah. Really good. Yeah. Certainly hasn't done it again. Yeah, that's great. I mean what, what are some others you had. So I have a box set of the DVDs. These are not Blu ray and he has since come out with them. It's a Stanley Kubrick director's series from Warner Brothers. Yeah. It's. It doesn't have all of them. It just has a selected few. But all of those DVDs have the best special features in terms of anything you want to know about the making of, like on the A Clockwork Orange One. They even have a whole entire separate I think it's BBC, but a BBC documentary about the violence that was going on in the UK during that time, which is why A Clockwork Orange couldn't be released. So the documentary has nothing to even do with the movie. There's there's threads in there, but they just give you this whole entire documentary on the violence of the UK in the sixties and seventies. And it's like, this is wild. And then you get into all like the, like the, like the in-depth making of. So I think those were some of the most impactful ones in terms of like education, like how to learn about making a movie. And then the other one that I have in this section is actually two more Zodiac. The yeah, this special edition Zodiac DVD. We talked about that on our Zodiac episode, but and the Fincher episode we did. Yeah. Yep. It's so good. That's an all timer one in terms of how that movie was made, all the censure, all that like pretty much after Social Network because Gone Girl is just a commentary but everything pre gone girl those are all magnificent disks like there's something worthy on all of them. But yeah, I learned from all those Tarantino when he released like Reservoir Dogs, Pulp Fiction and Jackie Brown, those two DVDs that taught me so much. I remember Fight Club is one I had written down because that was a popular like DVD, but it also had a lot of how to actually make a movie stuff on it. And I learned so from that. I learned a lot from like The Criterion for Traffic, which has like four commentaries on it and just a bunch of different stuff. So when you're looking for DVD, so in terms of special features, that's what it is. And this is a lost art and criterion. They'll still sometimes just release brand new movies with barebones discs, which is a bummer. But for the most part, a lot of their releases are very carefully thought out and really have features on there that are going to teach you a lot. Like Love streams for Cassavetes is just like truly astounding. And that's not part of that Cassavetes box set that you can buy. But my God, I spent like a day just with the special features, which included watching it with a commentary on But then there's this like an hour long making of documentary, which yeah, that is there. The whole time and it's really, really something. And that watching all of that really helped me love that movie even more. And that's still my second favorite Cassavetes. After A woman under the Influence. But yeah, stuff like that, like Criterion. And then if you go deeper, there are other companies like Arrow does a very good job at this. Now they give they're doing the same kind of thing that Criterion is doing. So yeah, there are other places to buy from, but it's tough in general because there just aren't. It's a lost art. The special feature, it's a lost art. Yeah, The Criterion. One's like, You really can't go wrong. I wrote in there for that one, the John Cassavetes five films box set because so much of the information I learned about Cassavetes came from individual features from those movies. The Decalogue. The Yes. Kozlowski That's that's great because you actually have the the really good in-depth making of it. But then they give you like the full length features off of the short ones that were made on. But I have one favorite DVD. The Metallica is some kind of monster documentary. cool. I've seen the documentary. I've never owned the DVD though. So the DVD has about the equivalent, maybe a little bit shorter than the actual movie of deleted scenes. wow. And the deleted scenes. I have done this many times where I've just put them on. You just hit play all and watch all the deleted scenes. It's like you're watching a different version of the same movie. Of the documentary. Yeah, yeah. And it's so fucking good and it's got all sorts of other special features. It is to me in terms of what you get from the quantity. It's the best DVD I've ever owned. shit. Wow, that's great. It's so good. Yeah. Something it's giving you, like, more way more content. That is. That's something that a lot of movies are doing now, like to just release Black out, which I talked about, which has three versions. And so they're doing like two different versions thing a lot. That's kind of a thing which I'm always down for, you know, whatever Blade Runner did it. Yeah, yeah. Blade Runner. Blade Runner. I mean, Jesus, God, is he going to release, you know, Napoleon the four hour cut? I'm all here for it. Our last, last question real quick. I I'm curious to hear what you say about this. Do you watch any movies or TV shows that related to the podcasts? I get asked this one all the time and kind of like it is kind of is related to how do you decide what to talk about? But yeah, I'm just always watching stuff. I don't get around to TV that much because I've just found that the highest high of a TV show is still like a medium movie. To me, it's just me. But I think TV shows are you. Whole seasons come down to like episodes and there can be one really good episode. But, you know, I still do watch like I watch The Bear I watched. There are some stuff that I watch, but yeah, like this year, stuff that I didn't really mention on the podcast I watched just because I couldn't fit it into a discussion anywhere. Every Billy Wilder movie I've seen a lot, but I watched his whole filmography leading up to the Malcolm X part. I watched every single film Denzel Washington has ever been in. I don't know why. I just I realized, like, I only had eight left or something, so I'm like, Why not do that? I'll put on 1988 Mississippi Masala, which did not get mentioned in the Malcolm X episode. But, you know, I'm just really glad I saw that movie. It's really good movie. Now I've seen every Denzel performance and then I'll do fun stuff like Rewatching talked about all the conjuring universe films in their time line order, which is like Ridiculous Year and stuff like that. The the the funniest thing is, is that the as many episodes as we do the Pod and all the movies that we have here, that is not even the tip of the iceberg of what you're watching. It's really the invisible. If anyone really to know. You can go w aiw underscore podcasts on letterbox. And I've logged every single movie I've watched in 2023, so you can really see. And what's kind of cool about that is like I will so we're we're going to do an episode soon. Like I teased about watching all the paranoid thrillers. I don't even know if those will get mentioned in the episode, but that's just kind of my homework. Like it's my research. Before the Oppenheimer Update episode I watched, I just like every documentary about Oppenheimer, the Manhattan Project, the atomic bombings. I watched a shitload of documentaries on Vietnam and JFK this year, so I'll go down those roads, watch a lot of Dan SIEGEL, a lot of Peter Weir, Kurosawa. I mentioned Joe Dante. I watched almost every William Friedkin after he passed. So, yeah, like, that's just that's it this year. Yeah. I'm always, always watching stuff because it's fun. Now ask me, Joe, I want to hear, have you do you watch anything ever? Sometimes you do. You text me stuff. Sometimes very rarely. It's very hard. Like I because of the full time that I have and the commute that I have. And then after those activities, like I play music in a band, I go to acting class, I try to keep up socially as much because there's just not a lot of time that I have. So pretty much the only stuff that I watch is stuff for the pod. Any free time that that's there it is. Movies for our next episode for our next hour or our upcoming episodes that we're doing like a big director, deep dive on. So I'll meticulously plan out like when I'm researching and doing that work, but when that's not happening and we have some free time pro wrestling, that, that that's, that's what I watch and that's what it is because there's so much there's too much. If you want to keep up in the current state of televised professional wrestling, it's too much. So I do my best. I do my best to keep up. But I also have an endless loop of a few shows. Arrested Development is my favorite show of all time. I will always have those first three seasons, just wherever I just put that on New Girl. I'm a huge new girl fan. These are comfort shows. Sure. Just rewatched Californication for the umpteenth time. What do I watch that's new? I watch the bear. The sea. The bear. Yes, like that. I just watched the Arnold documentary. That was great to watch it, too. Yeah, but yeah, that's that. That's pretty much. That's pretty much my watching. Yeah. Like, like you said, you have other interests in life and this is it's very concentrated now. I wouldn't have you any other way. I'm married. I relationships. Okay. We've arrived at. What are you watching? Ready? You're ready for this? We're doing things a little differently today, folks. Now, for the rest of this episode, we are going to spoil Cooper's Maestro, which is now on Netflix in full. If you want to watch this movie, please turn this off because we are going to spoil it. We're not talking about anything else in this episode. That's it. We're just going to be talking about my show. Spoilers ahead. Spoilers abound. We've both now seen this movie you on our episode of New 2023 movie releases. You had kind of snuck out and surprised me by seeing this movie and you gave a review of it and I and you. I was excited, like it did a good job. And you did. You sold the movie very well, and then we stopped recording. You elaborated a little bit and your elaborations were a little bit more negative than what you were saying on Mike. And you were painting a slightly better picture of the movie for me. If you want, I'd like you to go first and maybe expand on your review that you gave on that because you even told me there was some things you wanted to say but couldn't. Or I can go first. It's up to you. You go first, you go, Okay, this movie does not work. It just doesn't. This movie doesn't work. I'm sorry, but there are aspects of the movie that are truly and utterly breathtaking that genuinely took my breath away. You're hearing Bradley Cooper talking about this a lot in the press about how he his big his big quote in the press right now is I spent six years learning how to conduct for 6 minutes. And he actually did that. You actually see get to recreate Gustav Mahler's Resurrection Symphony at the same cathedral that Leonard Bernstein conducted it in in England in 1973. You can see that whole thing on YouTube. And I've done that. And that sequence, that's toward the end of the movie. You're actually watching Bradley Cooper rehearse or rather conduct this orchestra and it is fucking astounding. It is one of the scenes of 2023. It was so breathtaking that I went, Wow, this I wish this was wrapped up in a slightly better movie because this movie also has breathtaking performances. Yeah, this movie shot incredibly well. This movie has a very competent and confident assembly. I don't think it's a perfect assembly, but it is very confidently made yet. Still, for both of us, the movie fully did not work. Now, I don't want to speak for you, but we're not giving this movie a D or no, I'm giving it like a middle amid C, a, low B mid C, and I really, really want everyone to watch this movie again. I hope you've already seen it if you're listening to us, but I would highly recommend that everyone watch this movie because it has some thrilling stuff in it. And I did want to get to those positives because we've only seen it once, even though it's been on Netflix by the time people are listening to this. So we're going all first viewing alone. And I was in the movie and it took me about an hour to realize what was going on because it was an hour in that any whiff of conflict was introduced to the movie. In the movies, 2 hours and 15 minutes. And I'm waiting. I'm like, when are we going to start having problems here? Because everything's on the up and up. You know, he's doing he's doing well in his professional career, exceptional in his professional career. He meets the woman of his dreams, Felicia, played by Carey Mulligan, and they fall in love and they're starting a family, she tells him outright before they get engaged that she knows he is in terms of his fluid sexuality and she doesn't mind and lets go. So an hour into the movie, the first whiff of conflict is that she catches him kissing younger man in the hallway at a party no one else sees. It's just her. And evidently she does not like this now, and she kind of scolds him in the hallway, you know, getting sloppy. And I'm like, okay. And I looked at my phone and I went, All right, we're an hour in. And then something really strange happens because the scene, to my recollection, next scene after that is Leonard Bernstein. Like outside talking to a journalist, or maybe it's a friend or maybe it's a book author. It was very unclear. And they're just talking about Felicia and they're talking about Carey Mulligan's character and how this author has noticed how depressed Felicia has become and how the light has been taken out of her. And Leonard Bernstein goes off on this tangent about how God, everything used to bring her joy, and now nothing seems to. She's just depressed all the time. And I'm watching this going, What? Well, when did this happen? Every time I've seen Carey Mulligan, this movie, she's been overjoyed. She's been totally in love with. You were so happy there was minimal conflict earlier. She kind of like gave you a slap on the wrist about kissing that guy. But you I did not see any of this depression, any of this slump in the negativity. And that's when I realized, I think there's another movie going on here that he's not showing us that's more interesting than the movie he's showing us. And I want to let you kind of chime in here, but I have some other we're going explain ourselves a little better. But just as a package, the movie didn't it didn't connect. It did not It is not fully realized. It's not it's weird. I had the feeling that I had was was when it was over. I was confused as to like, what should I take away? That's what you told me off, Mike. Yeah. You were like, What is the take away of it? And definitely a question I have as well. I don't know. It felt to me like there were three different threads going on and all of them had really good value to the, the work of this man. The artistry, the career, the passion for it, his sexuality and his relationship with Carey Mulligan. I'm putting together pieces for myself of these three things, but ultimately, when it was over, I didn't really feel like I understood where any of that landed. It's a strange feeling because there's so much about this movie that, like, works and it's and it's beautiful. And like, there's some scenes that are just so powerful. But to, to be left in a little bit of that way was a little off putting. And I still can't really exactly pinpoint why there was so much to be said. I think the spaces in between of this life lived. I don't know how I want to say that. Well, I was watching it and yeah, I'm like, is this is this a movie about like a great conductor slash composer? Is this a biopic about that? Yeah. Is it really? Seems like he wants it to be a husband and wife movie, Like he actually wants it to be about this relationship, but then he would abandon that screen for a while and pick up the composer thing, and then he would really heavily pick up the fluid sexuality. Not by showing anything, just like that would be a focus for ten, 15 minutes. And then I'm like, What movie are you trying to be? And what, what opinion am I supposed to have of him? I don't. Yes, I don't really know what you want me to walk with. Like I don't. And then beyond that, it was to get like into the the granular of it. It was just losing me in sequence after sequence. And there's a big sequence, you know, Episode 55, our favorite movie Arguments, we dedicated a whole episode to it. There's a big argument in this film, and the right away I knew what he was doing, the camera's way, way, way far back, and it's just going to sit there and the camera's not going to move and we are going to watch these two people argue within a frame. Cool. I'm all for it. This movie is rated R for two things for some language and drug use. And I'm going to talk about both of those now in this argument. It's really one of the only times a character saying fuck over and over, and that's Carey Mulligan. And I'm like, okay, so this argument, it's like your R-rated scene. Okay, The setup of the argument is that Lenny is late for Thanksgiving and he walks in and his kids are like, Hey, way to be a day late to Thanksgiving, Dad. So I'm thinking he's going into the bedroom to talk to his wife and she is going to chew his out for focusing too much on his music and avoiding his family. So the argument starts and it's like going and a few minutes into the argument, I swear to God, I'm going to be so embarrassed. I'm wrong about this, but I swear to God, she says something to the effect of You're so talented and you're like, wasting this talent and you're not utilizing all enough. And I went, Wait, what is she arguing for? What's her position? What? I thought she was going to scold him for focusing too much, on music. Is she telling him he's not focusing enough on it? And then what's his argument? I, I have no fucking clue what they're arguing about. I had no idea. None and I still don't. Well, in this and this was part of the the problem for me is that it seemed like I never really knew where anything was. Like I never knew and I didn't know. And I because the movie jumps from time a lot. A lot it goes, I think pretty much in order. But this is no exaggeration of the movie. Yeah. So it is making massive time jumps without informing us. So now, like we never even seen Carey Mulligan pregnant. Now they have like three adult children. I go, Whoa, wait a minute, when the fuck did this happen? And and that's totally fine to me. Like, like I don't mind movie in time jumps like this. Sure, sure. But when it does happen, there is like, a bit of like, I honestly and I can't believe I'm saying this because like, normally I don't care about these things, but this is something where I feel like time stamps could have actually been a little bit useful because the movie itself in a very straight forward narrative. It is not a it is not a think piece. It is not a true. It's not it's it's not something that moves in an abstract fashion, even like to the degree of something like, I don't know, I'm thinking of like Steve Jobs, where that movie just took like three distinct chapters of this life. This movie is moving from point A to point B, and it jumps a lot. And when these jumps happen, work fluid into the scenario of their current life by a lot of outside exposition. Yeah. And I and so we're be exactly what you're we don't know where you're at with your work. We don't know where you're at with this or that. We have to find out throughout side like voiceover or things like that or side comments from other characters. So like a lot of that, there's a lot which goes to the the interview author thing I'm talking about. You hear a lot of characters talking about things that have happened off screen. Yes, like big pivotal things. And I think you not showing us this yet. Why do I have to hear two people talk about it? This is I thought this is like a big no no for filmmaking. But there's a lot of that. A lot. And like, the one particular thing that, like, confused me is that, like, I didn't really know who Leonard Bernstein was. I know nothing about him. I know he's responsible for what I saw that music. That's all I know. Yeah. And Bradley Cooper, you better Look, if you don't know about Leonard Bernstein, you're going to be lost a shit because he just expects you to be like a scholar on him. Yeah. And the one part that really sort of, like, clued me into who he was was there was a were going we were the camera was panning through the house and we're about to see them in a radio interview. And the voiceover, the radio is listing all the accolades and I go, he did On the Waterfront. he did. He did that. okay. Okay. I see. Right. But we're hearing that off camera from a journalist. Like what? Why? Why? I don't know. Yeah, it's weird. And then as the movie is going off, I'm just placing it on the work area. I don't know what he's working on now. I don't know what his relationship is to it. I'm hearing that this is a man who is consumed by his work, but I'm not seeing this consumption. They never show that. Yeah, yeah. I just sort of kind of grasp at these straws of there's ideas here of something that I want to know more. And then we're placed in these times where now we're here and we're, we're getting information and then we're dealing with a moment. And in those moments is where I think where the movie code is like scene for scene like some of these things are just breathtaking acting sequences. I particularly love the scene with Maya Hawke and him, where she's basically asking him, Are you are you not gay? Yeah, gay, bisexual. She's heard the rumors and this is a very good scene to bring up because it's a very well-acted. Yeah, it's it's like Bradley Cooper that took my breath away. Everything he wants to say but isn't. Yeah, I'm also putting together things that I'm like, well, this was at a certain time this was this was a time where, you know, you'd be ruined if you were to come out and and to the world and be gay. So there is this secrecy that does need to be the happening, but it's also how dangerous is this? Where are where is the stake of this? Yeah, it's just a little confusing. It's a little confusing to see where everything like so I said, I suppose when I was talking about like these three things where it's the sexuality, it's the it's the work of his career and his relation with Carey Mulligan. I'm getting these ideas from each, but none of them are fully realized for what I was wanting. And I feel really bad saying that because like, who am I? Yeah, we both like the movie. We we're not like, yeah, it's why we're not dedicating an entire episode to this film because we both liked it. It's just it. Okay, so I'm to latch on to this conversation. Yeah. Because there's okay, he comes home, Lenny comes home, the kids are there. And Maya Hawke, you know, is plays his daughter. She's grown up now. Obviously it's my Hawke's grown up. And Carey Mulligan specifically asks Lenny, she says, if she asks you about your sexuality, lie to her face. Don't you dare tell her the truth. I had no idea why she told her that or I had no idea why Carey Mulligan said that, but I just shrugged and went, okay. And they go in. They're having their little chat and he boldfaced lies to her. She just flat out asks him and he writes it off to jealousy. It's people who are jealous of my career, so they call me gay. And he's very conflicted and very tormented by this very well-acted scene. So like one of his best scenes in the movie, Yeah. The next time these two people interact, these two characters interact for whatever reason, the movie cuts into Lenny doing a line of coke at a party. He holds his tray up and a friend does a line of coke on it. His other friend does a line of coke on it. That's the only drug use in the movie. That's also why the movie is rated R. It's does not need to be in there. And then he goes to like a closet, calls daughter and is now openly talking about his affairs with men, just openly talking about them and rambling on because Coke has alcohol and she is not she does not respond in a shocked way. She responds in a way that they've already talked about this. He's it's some somewhere in the past, in the past, whatever he's admitted the truth her in like yeah you know that time I lied to your face I actually my sexuality is fluid like sorry about that but we don't see that conversation. Yeah we see whenever he actually admitted the truth her instead she just scoffs on the phone and she goes, I don't like hearing about these things. Yeah. Which indicates that she's heard about it from him before. But why didn't you not show us that scene? Why show us this well-acted scene of you lying to her? And then the next time you guys communicate it now, now you're just talking about it openly? It very confusing to me. I just didn't get it. I didn't get with the intention was. And now we're going to get to the final thing and we're going to stop shitting on the movie and we're going to in this episode. I'm sorry, folks. I'm very sorry. I'm sorry. Bradley Cooper, I'm sorry to say this, but Maestro commits a deadly sin of cinema and that is that out of fucking nowhere, he turns the last third this movie into a fucking cancer movie for no reason. Yeah. Only to manipulate its audience into sobbing. By the end, we get the long scene where the doctor tells Felicia, played by Carey Mulligan, that she is going to die of cancer. And then we have to watch Carey Mulligan die of cancer. Yeah, for 25 minutes when this has nothing to do with the fucking movie. Nothing. This movie's about Maestro. This movie's not about Felicia. If the entire movie had just been about their relationship, their tumultuous relationship, this stuff would hit for me. But it wasn't. You've gone off on long tangents of things that had nothing to do with her. And now you want me to watch her die for 25, 30 minutes and just sob? Like most of the people in my theater. And I was sitting there getting actively mad at it, going, I know what you're fucking doing, buddy. I would give I would take any movie to task over this, any movie. This is horseshit. And I resent it for that. I did not. I just flatly don't think that's cool. I just don't. I don't. I. Hitler had nothing to do with the fucking movie. Nothing. Then you spent such a long time on it. People. This is not 3 minutes. He spent such a long time on this. I actively dislike this part of the movie. I do. It's something I personally don't. I mean, I hate the cancer move in movies I hate. I don't I don't mind a cancer movie like 50, 50, 50 Years of Endearment. Those are cancer movies. I get it. I hated it, but too did to bring this in. And like the fucking quarter is it's yes, it's it's so manipulative because just come on. It's one of those things. It's the deus ex machina. Like you bring cancer and it immediately changes everything because that's what cancer does. That's what of course that's who the fuck is going to get. We know what we're supposed to feel when we see in a movie. We get it. That's why it makes me so mad. And we can't deny that. You know, this happened in real life. This is what happens. Sure. Of course. Yes. So? So we do have to go here. Yes, but two days to go with the third, the third act, the last third of the movie, and draw it out in the way, which is like the choices that the movie makes up until that point. You could just time cut as Yeah. As you've done throughout the whole entire thing. And you can have one scene where it's the goodbye or it's the hugging scene. The hugging scene in the kitchen was the cancer scene like that's the cancer scene. You can have. I didn't need 20 other minutes of scenes with that. And ultimately to kind of go through this whole entire drawn out, you know, the whole like I mean, it's it is the handkerchief out and it's it's just, you know, the whole thing. Then the thing that that confused me was the last shot of the movie after we've come through everything, we're right back to the opening scene where we start, where he's playing the piano, and then we get this beautiful black and white shot of Carey Mulligan and then the title card Maestro. And then we go into credits. I didn't know what to make of that. I'm like, Was this movie about was this is it about her? What? Like, Hey, I have a more basic question. Is Leonard Bernstein so alive? I have no idea. I haven't even looked it up. What happened to this guy? How many Oscars did he win? Whatever. Like, is is he still alive? I have not looked this up intentionally because I do not know. And the movie never tells us like it doesn't. But yeah, I agree. I didn't know what to make of it. What? Just ending it like. Like that. That she was the most important thing to him. And he's realizing that in this interview right now. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. The cancer stuff is in the very end because again, talking about these time jumps, I look this up I to look this up on Wikipedia. She died in 1978. So when we watch her die like this. Slow, slow God, it's so drawn out. 1978. The next scene is him rolling up in a nice car to teach like this class and R.E.M.. It's the End of the world is playing on the radio, so that gives us some indication of when we are because you know, Lenny gets a name drop in that song. So that movie came out in 1987. So already that's like a jump in years, right from when she died to when this song could presumably be playing on the radio. And he's listening to it. Then he goes and teaches this like class. It's a brief teaching scene, the end of the sequence. The takeaway is that he's about to fuck one of his younger male students. And so. So you just made us watch his wife die for 25 minutes. And then you're jumping to a scene where he's very aggressively drunkenly flirting with a much younger male student and. And everything's happy, I think. And then the movie's just about done. So I'm like, What in the world is the takeaway here? I don't I do not understand what's going on right now. Like I just and then it cuts like that interview and he's like I just really miss her. Yeah. And then that's that's it. So that's, that's our movie. You know there there's just a lot going on. This is one of those movies that maybe if it was 4 hours, it would it could connect so many threads. He's very, very very big in the press for the movie, saying that there's nothing left on the cutting room floor. He keeps saying all that he needs a Bradley. Also Bradley, like I love you, I love you. I've always loved Bradley Cooper. But, you know, you got to like lock it up a little bit. Let's get a little tight like you don't. I get that the movie like it was hard to do, but like, you're crying when you're interviewed by Todd Phillips, Like you're crying when you're interviewed by Spike Lee. You're crying on CBS Sunday Morning when you're with the Bernstein kids, like, let's just just lock it up. Let's lock everything up and just like, talk about the movie he he's carrying himself a little bit with like this is the best movie ever made or like the best movie of the year. And it's it's not we just, you know, I don't know. I don't know. I'm interested to see how people take this one. Yeah. I don't think it's going to be nominated for much, if anything. Maybe I'm way wrong. Maybe it gets the best picture. I mean, best picture. Who the hell knows? There's ten nominees. Who the hell knows? I do not foresee actor director. I don't. I think I think it's going to go there. I think. I think I think we're going to get I think we're going to get I for sure he you think director? I don't think so. I think I do it well, I don't think it depends on actor. Maybe. The thing is, McAdams loves this stuff. They love the academy, loves him. They love to nominate him and not award him. They do. They do that. I but I could see him winning best best actor. No, no, no, no. He won't win. No, I don't know. man, He's so good in it though. You get fucking nuts with these predictions because the fucking best actors really, really strong. He's got he is not. There's no consensus that will say Bradley Cooper's better than even Gillian Murphy. And I don't even think killing Murphy's at the top to win that award. I really. I don't know who's going to emerge, but I do. I don't know that O'Neill being able to win anything, I don't know. Netflix is Netflix. They have a lot of money. We're going to see what you know movies they're going to give the push to, but no nominations. We'll see. You know what? This is a real test because the academy does love shit like this. They do. So if they turn their back on Maestro, that's a huge middle finger to the movie. If they embrace it and it gets, you know, 11 nominations, cinematography, sound, all everything, it gets it all. You know, Carey Mulligan, I'm not gonna be mad at that. I'll be like, Cool, cool. And I don't expect it to win anything really. I don't know if it's going to do well nomination wise. I don't I don't. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I don't think. I think. I think. I think I think a clean up. You're out of your fucking that part. No. So, yes, we're honestly, my review would be more positive if it didn't go the way it did the last third of the movie. I still can't believe he did that. I you know, there's a lot to like about the movie. It is competently shot. While we're saying some of the editing, it just confused me, some of the storytelling. But like, I don't think that's necessarily the editor's fault. But yeah, I A Star Is Born was very, very big IP in cinema. It had been attempted a few other times, you know, a lot of people knew that story. I don't think this is nearly as good of an effort as that. So, you know, he did have a life to fall back on. He had an entire life to craft the film out of. But we're going to Ken Bradley Cooper doing original screenplay, written and directed solely from his mind. So it just came from Bradley Mind. I don't know. I don't know. I'm here for it. I'll wait to see it. I don't know if that's in the cards for him as a director that we're going to get original stories for him. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I'm so partial to a star is Born cause I love that movie with all my heart. That movie is great. It's so good. I would love to see something. I'd love to see something that's. You know, this was a very safe movie, too. And I. It is. It is. Yeah. And it would be cool to see something that's not so safe. But I didn't want that from this, though, necessarily. I didn't either. Like, there's no if it's rated R for drug use and you show them doing one line that's not like you could if Did he have a drug problem? I just see him doing one line of coke. Like, did he actually have like an issue? I would love to see that explored. Yeah. No, it it's very, very timid with. Actual sex. Like there's talk. They talk about it, but they're there's nothing that they, you know, show. It's not interested in that. But that would have been I still want people to watch it. No, but all right. That's you know, it's little different for us, but I wanted to do that. I want to talk about the movie. We both literally just did watch it. Very interested to hear what people think about Maestro. Let us know on Twitter, on Instagram. We're thriving on Instagram. We're doing great. Let us know at WRI w underscore podcast. But as always, thanks for listening and happy watching. Hey everyone, it's Alex. Okay, this is a first. This episode was done. We signed off, we stopped recording, It was over. But then we kept talking. Nick told me that he had more to say about Maestro, and he felt that he hadn't necessarily expressed himself as well as he could have during the episode. So the guy just starts talking about Maestro, and instead of breaking his flow, I pulled out my phone and secretly began recording a voice memo of us talking. So the following is about nine bonus minutes of Maestro talk, but with crappy iPad two iPhone Voice Memo audio. This is fun for me for two reasons. One as it Audience, you are getting to hear exactly how Nick and I talk about movies when we are not recording. Spoiler alert, it's damn near the same, but it's just fun to hear us totally unfiltered like this. To more importantly, at the end of this recording, I admit to Nick that I have secretly been recording this and I don't think he believed me. I don't think he has any idea that this audio is actually in this episode. I didn't warn him or anything. Here we go. Yeah, there were more things in there that I was like, and this doesn't make sense either. And, and yeah, like the take away at the end with the like, the way he was so sloppily hitting on that guy. So, like, I didn't want it to be dead. Just embrace. He did say that at one point because I just want you're going waste like who you are by not being open about it. But now that he is open about it, he's like a sloppy mess. And it's like if you want to if there was a point where you wanted to say about him, you finally embrace his sexuality in a way where it's like, okay, right. Like it's all okay. I I'm cool doing this. Like in the public now in front of my students. If that was the thing, then tell me that, yeah, I guess I'm not smart enough to take that away from it. But what I got from it is, yo, my wife just died. Now we can go sleep around. That's. That was my take away like that. Like he is so sweaty in that shirt dancing with that kid. Yeah. And I'm like, well I'm shirt is clearly you're embracing it, but it's not a good look. No, it looks like a fucking measuring. Yeah, like, am I supposed take away with that. And then it doesn't, it doesn't go, it doesn't go anywhere. That's. Yeah. So like what are you trying to say about yourself? What are you trying to say about Leonard Bernstein? Like, I don't. And then like Carey Mulligan, like, I mean, she just, she literally got the treatment of, like, the girl where in the beginning I started, I understood her like, here's this girl comes to Hollywood, fresh faced, finds this love. They handled that those love scenes very well. Honestly, the black and white part of the movie to me made sense. Yeah, that we should have said that's fair. I agree. I agree. Because it's like it all half and half about about. Yeah, yeah. And because there is no conflict yet, you know, we're setting this up and you're like, okay, this is this is the setup for everything is how it's moving once they're living together. And that time of happens, like I start to lose the thread of where she's at, I get that she's not acting anymore and she like too, but that's it. There's this whole change within her apparently, where she started to actively not like or be, like, upset with his sexuality or something. I don't know. But they just didn't show us that. And yeah, I was I was very confused and whole like, while the symphony, the conducting is good, the way that it waits to show us that she's there. I'm like, I would have loved to know she was there from the beginning. I think it would have hit so much better, but like, wait to show us. And I go, So I just I didn't get any Russians over to hug her. So I'm like, is it is it all about her? Or like, is it about the or is it both? I don't fucking know. And I'll be honest with you, man, this is really funny. I didn't even think about this. And so you brought it up that that that was the scene that he was rehearsing for, for six years. Yeah, I tuned out completely during that whole, like, the thing you fought for the most did. That's hilarious that you tuned out. That's supposed to be like the time that you're locked it down like this, right? I was locked in. I was like, I was. I was really like, the one conducting scene where he was, like, in, like, that classroom type thing. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's the one we're talking about where he's like, Well, that was cool, because he was actually he taught me something there. I was like, I get what he's talking about, like the do the dump. But then he, like, starts making out with a kid and I'm like, Is this? But then I wondered like last year we saw Tar. That movie was all about like, you know, so a woman being with one of her students and it's kind of this MeToo thing. So I'm looking at like, is he trying to apply that to it? Is is what this movie's showing me in the end. Is it okay that he's about to sleep with one of his students in a very sloppy way right after we just watch his wife die of cancer? Is that okay, or do you want us to be judging him right now? Because the dude just has this goofy smile on his face like he's a pig and shit and he's about to have sex? This dude, like, I don't know, 40 years younger than him, he looks happy. So as an audience member. Am I supposed to be happy or am I supposed to be judging him? I don't get it. I don't get it. The ultimate takeaway and is that when this movie was said and done. I didn't know who Leonard Bernstein was to start, and I still don't know. No idea. Over. Yeah, I guess that he's done a couple of things that was all told to me. But ultimately I don't I don't see this casting that. I mean, I saw a passionate performer when he's doing his work, but I don't see like this ambition. I never showed ambition. The first time we see him. It's like he he catches his. So it's not a cradle grave thing because we don't see him being born the first time we see him. He's catching his big break and that's like the big thing. And then there's no conflict for an hour and we're just seeing him rise, rise. But There's never anything that gets brought up of like like a struggling artist. He's just. We're just supposed to accept it like he's a genius, You know, it's fine. But yeah, the ambition thing, I didn't get anything that nothing to that. Where it's taken away time from everything. Yeah, the sexuality and, like, how deep is this? Like, how, how much does she know and that she's okay with. I like then like when she's kind of doing her own thing. She's got that great monologue, that closeup shot of her where she's just sort of like, I guess I tracked the same type of like, Yeah, that it slipped my mind. I forgot about that. And I loved her in it. I did. You said I loved her in it. I loved her in it. He gave her that big movie star introduction. I did. I loved her. He's at it. I just often didn't know what the fuck he was talking about. I didn't know why I needed to care. I didn't I didn't have an issue with the makeup or the nose. I don't care about that. I do. I don't care about that he actually looks a lot like him. Like I did bring up the real him conducting at Symphony. I was like, Well, he does look a lot like him. But even bringing in the coach for one scene, I just didn't I didn't get it. I didn't know. Why are you telling me this guy had a problem with drugs or that he just, like, had fun in the sixties and seventies? Like, I don't get it, and it's fine if this is just his lifestyle. That's all you want to say about it. Yeah, but then, like, there is no opinion to form. I took that as a very laissez faire. It's like, this is how this guy lives. Yeah, and that's fine. But then why are we like, what am I supposed to like? It was it was. Was this just to get to the phone call, right, with the daughter And that's and that's what I took it as like, okay, he needed to be up to call my Hawke and I assume to finally admit, hey, when we had that conversation, I like you. I actually am fluid sexually, but instead it's like he just says he just start talking about it and it's like they they had that conversation where he admitted that he lied, but they just it shows that it was so confusing to me. Yeah. And I'm still confused with the last shot. I actually forgot that until he said it. I forgot that that's what it was. And yeah, like, is this I mean it'd be kind of a cool movie if it was just about her and, like, this really, really famous guys. I mean, they did that. They tried that with Priscilla earlier this year because he had he clearly knows this guy better than anyone else, and he just doesn't display that. So I think she thinks that the sexuality part like that conflict so much more engrossing in the movie that it is what he wants to say about Carey Mulligan. His character is so much deeper than it shows and that the work that he puts in, because he put in that work, it doesn't translate. Nothing. Nothing comes through. We just get this very surface level ideas of these things that when it's all said and done, I'm like, I don't have any impact. They don't have any impact. Yeah, it was almost like he was so close to him that he just assumed the whole world is too. When honestly, dude, like I talk to the people who don't even, you know, haven't even seen, like, Jaws and you think like, everyone knows you. Leonard Bernstein It's like it doesn't. A Yeah, I don't really know who the guy is, so I didn't walk away with any new understanding of him. Yeah, well, acted well shot, but weird. I don't know what I'm. I'm sorry I let you down. I knew I was doing it. I just didn't really know how to scream to. It was fine, because I've been secretly recording this conversation. Sort of conclude it all on the podcast. Perfect. Perfect. No, it's fine. I still did like it. I want to like it more. Do you think? No. It won't be my top ten. It definitely won't be my top ten of the year. No, I don't think so. Hey, everyone, thanks again for listening. You can watch my films and read my movie blog at Alex Withrow dot com Nicolas Dostoevsky column is where you can find all of Nick's film work. Send us mailbag questions at what are you watching podcast at gmail.com or find us on Twitter or Instagram and letterboxd at w aiw underscore podcast. Next time we're talking about our favorite about face the movies we have changed our minds on the most. Stay tuned.