81: Ingmar Bergman

Just in time for the holidays, Alex and Nick discuss the work of their favorite filmmaker of all time, Ingmar Bergman. The guys break down Bergman’s essential films, the Bergman Acting Troupe, Sven Nykvist, Bergman’s cultural influence, and so much more.
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Well, right now it's like the biggest one yet. Oh, yeah, baby. Oh, yeah. Hey, everyone. Welcome to. What are you watching? I'm Alex Withrow, and I'm joined, as always, by my best man, Nick Dell. So how are you doing there, Antonius BLOCK. Oh. Oh, I'm very, very. Thank you for for giving me that. I gave you some knighthood there. You gave me. I gave you the good you down on the bird report. I'm not going to take it out. I'll build you up. But I do have to say, you've got blood over at the border. Ha! That was an excited to be here in Swedish. Yeah. Good job. Good job. Oh, wow. Ingmar Bergman. This is. This is the boss of it all today. Boss? Oh, yeah. This is as big as it gets for me personally. This is my. I don't even know how to set this up. Like, my lifetime has been dedicated to film, and this is my number one. I said on the Cassavetes podcast that he was my could be my favorite filmmaker. And then I, I kind of reshaped that and said they're both parts of the same coin. One side is Bergman, the other side is Cassavetes. I flip them around. That's where my I mean, this is like my North Star. Ingmar Bergman. This is where I have gone to over and over and over since discovering his work in the spring of 27, when my life was never the same after it was a complete redefinition of the art form is a big podcast. It's a big topic. We're talking about Ingmar Bergman. First of all, thank you for doing this with me because I've made you watch 20 of his movies. So thank you for doing this with me. And I am not using this podcast as a everything you need to know about Ingmar Bergman is right here. I think that would be way too alienating. I know so much about him, his actors, his shot choices, his films. I'm a total obsessed nerd for this man's work, but I don't want to bring people that much in. I don't want to alienate people. I'm framing the narrative of this podcast as I think most people have heard of him. I think most people have seen a few images from his movies, particularly The Seventh SEAL. Think there's a few people maybe seen one or two movies and been like, Whoa, and I'm going to use my time here to contextualize Bergman's films a little bit. These are not these massive, super serious. So for launch, so sad, so like crushing, they're not all like that. Some of them are. Some of them are. They're not all these five hour epics where you're going to have to dedicate like an entire week to them. And it's going to be this terribly painful dialog in the way people are talking to each other. Some of them are, some of them are, but some of them are also funny. Very funny ones you don't think are going to be funny. They're all amazing films that showcase the human spirit, the good, the bad, the ugly that has to offer us. I can keep going on and on. Here we are. It's Bergman Day. Like, I'm so excited. I don't know if I've ever been more excited for a podcast. This is my favorite filmmaker to talk about, so I'm really happy to be doing this, but I just I don't want to I don't want to scare people away. You know, this guy made 50 films and we're not talking about all 50 today for a reason. We're talking about just his 20, most important, that's all. Just he just want us to 20, which I imagine will already be alienating some people. But we're getting into it. Here we go. It's Bergman Day. How are you feeling? Well, I'm going to retort with your monologue in Bergman fashion. With the monologue of my own. And I have to start by thanking you. If it wasn't for you, I don't know if Ingmar Bergman would have been some filmmaker that I have in my life the way that I do. I'm not saying that somehow between 2015 and now that I would have not seen an Ingmar Bergman movie, but I can damn sure say I haven't seen I, I haven't seen 20 of them. Yeah. When I first saw Fanny and Alexander, which was the movie that you gave to me from your collection to watch my life changed in terms of the art form of film, I didn't. I knew nothing. They basically knew. Everything that I knew taught me that I knew nothing. This has been just as exciting time for me to dive into this filmmaker as it is to you for us to do this together. And so thank you for introducing me to this director and really thank you for just kind of being you, because I feel like so much of you as an artist, I see how this is the filmmaker that did this all for you. And I have had the absolute best time in diving into all of these movies. I knew after Fanny and Alexander that this was going to be one of my favorite filmmakers and diving into every single thing subsequently that I have it. He is right there, Cassavetes and him, like they breathe the same air. Yeah, Yeah, absolutely. And they. Bergman was a fan of Cassavetes. Cassavetes was a fan of Bergman. Very, very, very much so. So it's, you know, it's connected here. They're connected by passion. That's what it is. It's like this intense passion to make movies. And you, you have to, to just to create. And the reason that was very nice what you said but the reason you know, that I was pressing Bergman on you. We met because you hired me to shoot your short film. And I remember we're talking about movies, we're in pre-production. I'm like, Have you seen Bergman? And you hadn't. I went, Okay, here's what I'll say about him. If you are making a movie, watching a Bergman movie is only going to make you better. There's virtually nothing in it that is going to hinder your way to make a movie. Now, undoubtedly, a Bergman movie is going to be better made. The movie you're about to be. Yeah, it's just kind of the way it goes. Yes, that's what it is. So you don't feel like this inferiority? No more giving you permission of like, Yep, Go here. Because I did it. I did it in the sixties, the seventies, the fifties, the eighties. I was doing it for me. It was like, Oh, these stories have existed for way longer than I thought. And there's an audience for them might be a small audience. Even the movies I make might have a small audience. But there I know there are people out here who want to see the type of shit that I'm interested in making because he found me or I found him and I had no idea that movies could do what What he did like it? Yeah, it was like seeing film for the first time. And we're going to get. Yes, all the reasons why. But like I know we've talked about him and his movies a lot along the way of this podcast, but there's simply no director who's had more of a cultural impact on my creative life and my personal life. There's just not. It's even doing it for this episode. I'm rewatching, like all of his work, and I'm getting something new out of films I've seen dozens of times. I'm getting new stuff out of the Seventh SEAL and texting you about it being like, Jesus. I'm watching Cries and Whispers and I'm like, Oh my God, this isn't. That's like complexes. I thought it was. It's actually just a really simple, like memory movie. It's a brutal memory movie, but it's very simple. It's very simply told there's something to latch on to. With every movie he made all of them. But I did kind of whittle it down because I didn't want to go on forever. But let me start here with very high level Bergman thoughts, and we're going to get into what he means to us. But the man is born in Sweden in 1918, makes his first movie in 1946 and his final film in 2003. God, he directed 49 feature films. 45 of them were narratives, four were documentaries. He wrote and produced a number of films for others. He was always active in theater as a playwright and the director. He made most of his movies largely using the same people in front of and behind the camera. For a long stretch. He made all of his movies on one tiny island in Sweden, Faro, one of the most influential filmmakers of the medium. What is Bergman mean to us? I mean, Bergman and his long time cinematographer, Sven Nykvist, gave me the courage to finally start making movies. That is what they mean to me. It's no coincidence that the first film I ever shot was mere months after discovering Bergman's work. My first experience to him was actually my my very first genuinely is Bill and Ted's bogus journey and class action hero, which I am seeing parodies of the Seventh SEAL and the personification of death in the Seventh SEAL. I'm like, What are these two different movies? Like? I think they're referencing the same thing. I'm like, What is this? And, you know, I see those in the early nineties. It takes me until 27. I blind by the Seventh SEAL and Wild Strawberries, which he released months apart and I know 57 deaths. It's insane. These are two of the most masterful pieces of cinematic language committed to celluloid and he releases a mere months apart. So I get a hold of the seventh seal, put it on, my life is changed forever. I have no idea what I just watched. I rewatched it again and then it just began. That was 27. This is 2022. I have never looked back. It was a very, very quick elevator up. Very quickly, two cries and whispers which knocked the wind out of me, both in its content and just in its visual look. Then I reached persona, which I watched twice in pictures back to back. The first time I saw it, 85 minutes long changed my fucking life. Well, yeah, I mean, with Fanny and Alexander, I was met with feelings that I mean, I had personal ones because, like, I remember growing up as a kid and my mom had different boyfriends growing up, and there was always a fear that no one ever treated me like the priest in that movie. So let's just get that out of the way. Bad dude. Yeah, bad dude. But as a kid who's just growing up with a single mom, that is the fear. Oh, you always have a fear that all of a sudden, whoever your mom starts to date is going to become an absolute terror of the rest of your childhood. Yep. So I've told you this. Ingmar Bergman is my favorite screenwriter of all time. I think he is the best person who ever wrote screenplays. Yeah, I think is the most talented. He's my favorite screenwriter ever. Yeah. Yeah. He communicates through dialog like he can floor you and cut to the cut through all the bullshit. And there is no dancing around when an Ingmar Bergman line will hit another character that will just hit that other character, it will hit you and you'll be like, That was the simplest and either most beautiful or the ugliest way to communicate any type of idea. And he does this consistently throughout all of his movies. And I just remember I was like, I didn't know that I that there was somebody out there that would articulate how I a fear or a notion or a beautiful thought as well as he did in his movies. So that was my first impression of him, you know, going on. And I think from there when I saw Persona that was just like, okay, I now like this is just a whole other bag in terms of filmmaking. Yeah, he is a filmmaker that you could think whatever you want and know all you know about film, but until you dive into some Ingmar Bergman you don't know. You just don't know. Yeah, you just can't. And that's how good he is. And as, as a fellow filmmaker, it's, it's wonderful that we have him, that we have this person that has done everything that he done. Because if you have a question about how you want to handle anything in your movie, if you're like, man, there's a scene or you're writing something or you're trying to think about how you might want to shoot something, all you have to do is go to a Bergman movie, so you will find your answer. Yeah, he is the Bible. He is everything when it comes to I don't know how to do something. How would Bergman do it? What has Bergman done? And I guarantee you, it doesn't seem to be a specific movie you could put on any. Well, maybe most any of these. You could definitely put on any of these 20. Yes. Yes. And you will find not just like the oh, this is how it's done. You're going to find out your answer to how you do it through. BERGMAN That's he's transcendent in that way. And and I feel like he does get a bad rap about being very intense, very heavy. And like you said in the beginning, like some of that can be, but they're not all like that. And when you really cut to it, like he's just talking about the human experience, that's that's what it is over and over. All it is. Yeah. In different variations. And as we go along here, I will let people know like, yeah, this one, this one's rough. Like this one. Yeah, it's tough. But I'm also going to let you know when this is your perception of this movie in particular. The Seventh SEAL is wildly different than what this movie actually is. It just is. There's if you haven't seen that movie and you have like an idea of it, it could very well be the wrong idea. That's all I'm saying. And if you just go watch it, it'll kind of show itself to you. But in this notion of and h, it's us who's influenced by him like this is one of the coolest stories. Tarkovsky was Bergman's favorite filmmaker, and Bergman was Tarkovsky's favorite filmmaker, and they were making movies at the same time. That's crazy. That's like a level of that's a level of respect that like, we really we don't see anymore. I never hear contemporaries talking about their contemporaries like that. Like, yeah, is just like the best. He's the best that it is. And that certainly that's never ended with Bergman here are here are a few other directors Oh yeah go ahead That's how I feel about you, big ass. Oh, God. Jesus Christ. Okay, Thank you very much. Here are just a few directors who were public and went on record as saying Bergman is my favorite filmmaker. Francis Ford Coppola. Woody Allen. Stanley Kubrick. Kozlowski Inarritu. Paul Schrader. Martin Scorsese. Ang Lee. Lars von Trier. If someone has made a film since Bergman started making films, they've been influenced by Bergman. Whether or not they've seen his movies, his influence is so ingrained in the art form. He is synonymous with cinema. He will forever be one of the all timers. One of the Mount Rushmore is whatever it is, he'll always be up there. I'm ready to get into the work. I could talk about this is the thing. Like we're going to see how this episode goes in terms of audience retention and if they like it, if if you all are into Bergman, then we'll do more. BERGMAN Podcast. But if you're a Bergman head and you're wondering why we're not going to be mentioning some of the most famous movies he ever did, the Duke made 50 movies, and we're talking about 20 of them today. We're just I just wanted to be a little selected to keep things going. Again, the intention is to inform people about these movies. I'm not interested in spoilers or telling like fully where they go, but it's really just trying to trying to get people to watch a Bergman movie. That's it. Whatever it is. I'm just trying to communicate that these are not as bad or as like, difficult to watch. As you may have heard, some of these are actually fun to watch. You will have to read. Yes, you will have to read subtitles, But some of them are like, they're fun and you're always going to learn something even if you don't want to. You're going to be watching it and be like, for instance, and I'm going to get to this. My wife is not into like arthouse cinema. It's just it's not her back. And I wouldn't show her Bergman movie because it's not what she's interested in. I did just buy a new TV, so I've been having a lot of Bergman's own for the past month. She's been walking in and out of rooms and some really, really caught her attention and she would just hang out and watch some She watch with me till the end. One in particular, one that you really loved and the prevailing thought that she kept single out is how the fuck was this made when it was made like this is I'm on the edge of my seat watching this. I had no idea you could do this. And I went, Yeah, because they couldn't do it in America. But he was doing it over there in Sweden. And a lot of the movies they're going to talk about today virtually unheard of in American film in the fifties and sixties. You what you would do, you would not do it. Let's get into it. Are you ready to tackle this top 20? Anything else to say? I mean, no. I mean, we're just going to get there because I feel like I have so many adjectives that I want to like throw out this way. But they're going to come up in the work. Here we go. We're going to start off here. We're actually going to jump straight to its 10th film. I'm skipping over a bunch. I'm going to be skipping over more than half of his work along the way. But we're going to jump to 1950 one's summer interlude. Oh, we meet a 28 year old ballerina, Marie, spend some time with her, watching her work, watching her fall into unexpected emotional despair. She receives a diary from her first lover, but whoever sent it is unclear. And from here, we watch Marie embark on an afternoon trip of remembrance. She has to be back in the theater in a few hours to perform Swan Lake. But in the meantime, she's going to take a quick trip to a place that she shared. A summer interlude with her first love all those years ago. This is the kind of movie that I would love to make. I'd be so happy to make like a simple memory piece. Half the movie is the current time period. Half the movie is the flashbacks of the interlude. Revisiting this film, it really made me understand the full scope of Marie's melancholy. The actress who plays her is Marge Britten Nielsen. And she's I mean, she's remarkable. Like her transformation. That's that's another thing. The Bergman transformations from when we start, we see like this 28 year old for and dancer and then just with a few quick flashbacks for seeing this girl of such youthful joy. And it's really heartbreaking to see like how just living life has let her down, which is such a Bergman speech. I mean, yeah, yeah. Her journey is not it's not just remembering this interlude. It's also remembering the ongoing struggle of the aftermath of that interlude. There's is a really fun mini like animation sequence, which is really rare for Bergman. And, you know, this is summer Interlude is great early. BERGMAN It is not to be ignored and he based it off a summer of his own. But, you know, some of these I'm going to go a little more quickly through than others, but that's a good place to start if you want to. So is this the first great Ingmar Bergman movie? People may vary on whether Summer Interlude is a great movie. I think it's a great movie. The next one we're going to talk about is like it's just it's an objective, great film. The people go, Who the hell is this guy? Now we got to pay attention like we're here. But I think Summer Interlude is honestly, I think it's best use as kind of a lead in a double feature. With the next movie, they talk about summer with Monica. They don't have anything the same. But you know, I mean, thematically, like there's some similarities, not no similar characters or anything, but I put Summer Interlude first because Summer with Monica is like this is widely regarded as the first no bullshit Bergman movie. There is a new voice in cinema deal with. Yeah, and you know, this is thanks largely to the performance of Harriet Anderson as Firecracker. Monica and a lot was made about the nudity in this film at the time. A lot of controversy, a lot of interest. It was daring in 1953, unheard of in fifties American film. But honestly, you got to forget the nudity. Like the real fire of this performance is her just the way she mocks someone when they make her mad, her energy, the way she's always smoking, her stares the way she fucking stares. It has to be one of the most expressive faces in cinema. And I mean, you can look at Harriet Anderson for 60 seconds and watch her change so vividly without saying a word. But break open summer with Monica here. Oh, my God. I'm fucking loved it. I mean, it's it's. It's for all of the things that Bergman was, and love was just for him a huge part of his life. Like he. Oh, yeah. And I. And I know, like, there's, like, a deep down reference because, like, you know, if he eventually went on to have a relationship with Harriet Anderson. Right during the course of this movie. Yep. Yeah. But what's great about it, though, is that you feel that like there is a transference here. There's something that's going on in this movie that's so much more alive, and I think it's because of that. But the thing that it did to me is that it reminded me of my very first, like, infatuation, like in high school with like my like my very first, like, quote unquote, girlfriend. I still think that that's the most romantic I've ever felt in my entire life. This is what the film is touching on. And this brilliantly. Yes. And this is what it did. Like I like I felt that. And it's like the little things. It's like they're over at his dad's. Yeah. And and they're making out. And then he comes home and just, I don't know, like, it seems like it's something that's done in every type of movie that's like this, but there's just something that's just so much more real about the way Bergman does this. I just absolutely loved everything about this movie. Yeah, the movie. I'm so happy to hear that the movie is it's really a perfect and capsule collection of that young romantic love. And then what the pragmatism of time can do. Yeah, because, you know, you're young, you're single, you don't get along with your family. Well, you hate your job. You meet an attractive, exciting young woman, and the two of you just conjure up a plan. Just go quickly, just to screw around all summer on a remote island. Let's just be young and love what could possibly go wrong. What could possibly go wrong? Well, well, well. The summer's got to end. Yeah. You need money, You need food. These are the things that. That young love, that young romance does not take into account. I mean, it's like when you're young, you don't think that setting out on a love torn journey will literally mean that you will be eating meat in the dirt literally within a matter of months. Like this is a Bergman film. So the same type of movie where Monica and Harry hold hands with their feet in the water, watching the sunset and fade to black, knowing that this youthful love, they'll share it forever. It will last forever. I mean, that sentiment would make Bergman puke like, Oh, God, yeah, he can. And that's what's great is like, Yeah, yeah. Like you can't have something so good without the other. Yeah. And Bergman, you know, is, is I mean, he's just a guy, I think, that's experienced some awful, awful things in his life, realizes and sees how shitty the world can be and doesn't shy away from it. But he also doesn't shy away from how lovely it can be. And I think that's like why this movie probably is considered that to be like, All right. BERGMAN is here. This is a new voice is because he's shining light on both of those things. Yeah. You and I have not talked about a lot of these movies yet. Just watch him for the first time. So we've never talked about this movie, but like, you're watching this movie and you think back and you go, Don't you remember when you were like 15, 16, 17? You're like, Yep, I'm going to marry this person. We're going to move in together. We're going to have kids like this. My life, like I'm good, I'm set, like I love. That's it. Now, when you look back on it some distance, you're like, That was just a summer with Monica. That was my whole life. I thought it was my whole life. It was just a summer with Monica. And, you know, it can take a lifetime for some people to understand that. That young love you felt you felt at once. And it's gone. That's not coming back in this movie. It takes a summer. But for some people can take, you know, forever and the end of this movie begins with one of the best fourth wall breaks in all of cinema, all without her saying a word. She looks right at us, just daring us to judge her. It's breathtaking. Yeah. The final 15 minutes of this movie are just devastating. But it is funny how some of Bergman's love stories end in devastation. But then his worst, most brutal tragedies end in hope. That go. That's it. Yeah. The fucker that's the magic of Birdman is like. Like that. That's where he lives. And it's fucking great. Yeah. Can I hit you? Maybe with a piece of trivia that you might not know? Oh, boy, I don't. Yeah, I definitely don't know everything about it. I'm not trying to say that I'm not. I always want to know any of everything about Bergman. Throw to me. They were doing all of this stuff on the on the remote part of the movie. And that's where Ingmar and Harriet were having, like, their real their real relationship. Bergman didn't want to leave. He didn't want to stop it. So he he scratched out a bunch of the frames and like the film to force reshoots. So just yeah. So they had to go for reshoots, meaning to, I don't know. Bergman's antics survive 2022 political correctness. I will say that now, but. Oh yeah, not no, they do not. They do die. And I can you know, I'm not going to talk about that a lot today, but not, not perfect, man. But he damn sure made some perfect films. Hellboy and yeah, I love that story. I was like, Oh, that's great. I mean, the camera's just absolutely in love with her. And it's like Bergman fell in love with her and the camera fell in love with her. Like, that's all. Like you said, it's just really everything merging together. Oh, the next one. So fun. My God. Smiles of a summer night. Oh, here we go. 1955, Bergman made a few comedies. The Devil's Eye. All these women, none were as successful as Smiles of a summer night. This movie is an absolute riot, like it's genuinely funny. Here's this set up and bear with me. We have four couples and everyone is in love with each other or sleeping with each other or thinking about sleeping with each other. We have a famous actress entangled into all of this disarray. She decides to invite the four couples to her country home for the midsummer night, which is the shortest night of summer. This movie features lines like My wife may cheat on me, but if anyone touches my mistress, I become a tiger. I love that guy. I really wrote that down. I wrote that line of, Oh, it's great. BERGMAN Super serious. FILMMAKER Yes, I boil over laughing when I watch this movie. It's a little confusing because there's so many different people and everybody's tried to sleep with each other. But what's like you watch it a few times? Well, it's got it's got the you know, if you didn't know any different, you'd start this movie and it would almost feel like you're watching a Hollywood romantic comedy of its time. Yes. Yes. It's got the music, it's got the openness. It's got all of that. Until you start hearing what these characters are saying to each other. Yeah. And then it's still funny, but it's so much more risque and daring than anything that Hollywood would have been doing. Okay. This is one thing I want to I was going to wait to say this. I don't know when I was going to say, but I'm saying it now. In our previous one of our previous episodes of Andrea Arnold, I spoke very highly about how I thought that she was one of, if not the best women to write male characters. Yeah, I know where you're going. And I agree. Yep. And I and women have said this like women that he has worked with. I believe that Ingmar Bergman writes for women better than anyone I've ever seen. And there's a beautiful scene between Mademoiselle Arm felt in her mom, her old mom, and that one room. And now I'm going to cut to a very funny line. So this is not indicative of why I think women he writes so well for women. But he does. But there's a line where the mother is talking about how she fell in love with, like the one guy she was truly in love with and and heartfelt goes, What did he do? And she goes, Well, he threw me out of a window. Yeah. It's like, he's so outrageous. You're like, Wait, what? So what is. I'm a very honest little rattlesnake. I'm warning you now. Like this. Little lines like that, like, I love that little stuff, but yeah, but that's what makes going. That's what makes rewatches of this so fun. It moves really fast. It's a lot to keep up with everyone, even. Yeah. Yeah, you do? Yeah. On a Russian roulette scene toward the end of it, it's like, Whoa, here we go. I mean, everyone's so great in it. Seeing Gunner burn strong as goofy as Frederick is, it's just a real joy because this is like I mean, he's one of the series Bergman Actors playing a goof here. And then here. Here she is again. Harriet Anderson is Petra is just so damn good when she would she pushes that. But the bedroom, the second bed comes like, oh my God, sliding out from the side, the wall and that little whore and like the baby statue starts playing. It's hilarious. I mean, like you said, there's a lot of intentional music used in the film. Very unusual for a Bergman movie, but this is the best Bergman comedy. I guess. It's such a joy to watch 100%. Bergman finds a way to talk about men and women's behavior, where they reveal all their wounds and then seal them back up and pretend like they were never there. There is some absolute cultural differences. Yeah, that are present in his movies, so you just kind of recognize that those are there, but still. Like that is like what he speaks to. It's kind of he's always kind of like toeing that line and showing that without correcting it, without trying to do anything other than just be like, Well, this is what it is. He makes movies occasionally about really difficult subjects, but if he's going to do that, it's this is what that subject is. He ain't tiptoeing around Greek yet. Los any number of things. Well, we'll get to it This I mean like it's our fourth movie and this is like one of the best movies just ever made. I can't believe this. We're just like Verdict through these movies. 1957 A game changer to end all game changers in terms of cinema in February the seventh SEAL is released. This movie was made in part for Bergman to get over his fear of death, which nearly paralyzed him into not being able to move. And that's I've talked about it on the podcast before, but my favorite explanation for why someone has made a movie is when Bergman talks about this, he says, You know, I don't know if it was in the writing or in the making of that movie, but at some point along the way, I realized that that fear I had had ceased to exist. And death is going to come for us, whether we like it or not. It's just part of it. So Seventh SEAL has some of the most iconic imagery in all of film and to dispel any fear that people may have that any anyone is afraid of how serious it is. Yeah, I'm just going to try to change up the way I describe this movie as to make it less complicated, just in an attempt to get like one person to watch it. And I promise this is an extremely reductive version of what the Seventh SEAL is about. But just hear me out. This is this is all the movie is. A soldier arrives home after a long war. He has a goofy attendant with him and they need to get back to the soldiers Castle to rest. That's it. It's essentially a road movie along the way. They meet people. They meet a nice family, they meet an acting troupe, they meet villains, they meet a mute girl. Sometimes they fight off bad people. Sometimes they allow the good people to join their group and take shelter in the castle. When they eventually get there, they witness a few disturbing religious ceremonies in their journey, but they observe and try not to interfere. Now, the most notable person on this journey is, of course, death himself, who is personified here by the actor Bennett Eager trust in what is the most iconic performance of the film. And you know, early in the movie, the soldier who's actually a knight and death make a deal. As long as the two can keep a game of chess going, death will allow the knight and everyone in his group to live. As soon as death wins the game, he's going to kill them all. So now, again, that soldier is a knight played by Max von Sydow. His attendant is a squire, played by Gunnar Byrne. Sharon And the time is just after the Crusades. So everything that I just said in that reductive plot explanation, none of that is explained to us. We have to watch and track the journey, but it's not confusing. The movie follows a linear narrative. It's a linear road movie. And you know, he doesn't always do that. Sometimes his movies bounce around, so that's all I wanted to set it up that way to be like, you know, when you if you sit down and watch this, this isn't like a super confusing movie and and it's funny as shit, This is really, really funny stuff in here. This is not even like the 15th most serious movie that we're talking about today. And I am dead serious in that statement. It's how I felt the first time that I ever watched this movie. I remember thinking, Oh man, I really got to prepare myself. I'm going into a whole entire thing right here. And then, yeah, I found myself just like, whimsically like going along with this movie along the way, being met with some unbelievably profound thoughts about death, life, religion. I mean. BERGMAN One of his biggest themes of of all of his movies is religion. Yes. Normally, I'll be honest, it's not exactly my go to theme. It's something that, you know, in movies that. But what's great about Bergman is that it's not religion. There's a deeper point to it. It's the overall it's the more of the existential thought of religion. So you're not being really bogged down by what can feel like a very, very claustrophobic topic to deal with for a whole entire movie. Yeah. Bergman somehow manages to make it the most relevant, interesting and thought provoking theme that you could ever spend 2 hours wrap your head around. Yeah, he's it's these are movies about faith by being held by a nonbeliever. Like he's also, like, the best director ever who thinks a large part of him thinks that a lot of this is superstitious and silly, but he's very interested in why some of his characters, their life is all about religion, but then they're just terrible human beings, which is his way of describing his father, who was a bishop, a very, very religious man, who, I mean, just essentially like tortured poor Ingmar, it sounds like for his whole childhood, including locking him in a closet for days on end, a dark closet with, like, bugs in it and rats and not letting him out, in which all this comes up in his movies. And so, yeah, there's, there's this thing of, like, I've been let down by religion my whole life. Yeah, but all of you people over here say now it's this great thing. So he's very interested in those themes. He's not showcasing religion as a way of like this solves everything. No. If you're religious, your life's all good. It's not that simple to him. Not at all. So yeah, yeah. And what's also refreshing too, is that if you are a religious person, I don't think you're going to be turned off by this because, yeah, that may be where his sentiment is. But even in some of those moments, he never says religion's not really correct. He never says that, Oh, this is right or wrong, he just throws out ideas. He throws out ideas. He has Crisis of faith, a follow up in a lot of his movies. But ultimately, when it's all said and done, none of that's really resolved because at the end of day, none of us really know. He just was the first person that I can think of that actually voiced these ideas through cinema, right. And let them live. So part of what makes The Seventh SEAL such a remarkable movie, it's the first time anyone's ever saying these things right. And Antonius BLOCK, Max von Sydow, like he just has some questions that you're like, Wow, holy shit. Okay, literally. Holy shit. And that's it. So that's what makes this movie so great is that it's not it's so serious. It's actually very light and then profound and you're hit with this ups and downs, ups and downs and and it's and it's brilliant. It's just brilliant. I watch the commentary on this movie. Peter Cowie Yeah, yeah. That dude is a fucking genius. I've learned. Yes. So much of my Bergman knowledge from this amazing Bergman historian Peter Cowie and Mark DAVIES, who does other commentaries. I've learned so much from these two men, but I'm really glad you watched that. Yeah, I've seen it, too. BERGMAN Often starts many of his movies out with water, and Peter Cowie was saying that the reason why Bergman will do this is that he likes to start a movie off where with water, it's this idea that we're washing away any preconceived notions that the audience might have about what they're about to see. And it's also for the characters. Basically, they're starting off with a fresh, clean slate, whatever the story's going to be, we're starting from here. So in the seventh SEAL you've got Antonius BLOCK and his squire washed up on a shore. Yep, basically. And it means they're coming from the Crusades and everything like that. But this is where they're starting. And once I knew that, I know how. So many movies Bergman starts off with water through a Glass darkly. Is them like, running out of the ocean? Yeah, like it's like a rebirth. Yeah. It's important. It's bring up some of these things because as a filmmaker, these are like, No one told Bergman that this is how you do things. No, no, not at all. Again, it's like trying to define for yourself as the artist as to what do you like, and then finding like a reason to kind of put that in there and just and it's okay. It's more than okay. God, we could just we could be stuck on seven seal, like I could be here all day, But I was wrong. I'm already takes so much longer than I thought. I'm already married, of course, But the Lord willing by now my wife is dead. Like Gwyneth says, it's quiet. It's somewhat. It's like there's all these great moments in it. All right. I'll skip to, you know, Gwendolyn Bloom. She has a huge eyes. She's so captivating. She's the mother in the silence. But she plays the mute girl here when she sees death at dinner from there to the end of the movie. Those are like some of the most iconic minutes in all of cinema. You know, the the dance macabre at the end. It's It's like no one's ever seen anything like that since it's been parodied and marked so many times. And it just when you watch the actual real thing, it's as good as filmmaking gets. And then again, talking about it does end with a little hope. If you if you're paying attention and you see, you know, it just ends with a little hope, I'll put it that way. I really, really like this movie. Oh, God, It's a perfect movie. Seventh SEAL. Perfect. Here we go. The Seventh SEAL comes out in February, and hey, why not just a few short months later, in December, I'll release another masterpiece. This one's called Wild Strawberries, the 1957 films. These are these are Journey movies about men at the end of their lives on a journey in search of meaning. As Roger Ebert said in the Seventh SEAL, the Night is collecting people on a journey and, you know, perhaps leading them to an inevitable fate. And wild strawberries and aged professor Isaac Borg, he embarks on a long road journey, remembering the people who came into and out of his life. Needless to say, these are two perfect films released months apart. Just two of the most perfect films ever made cannot believe they came out back to back. It's like crazy. So where do we start with this? Start with Victor and that performance. Let's just start in the very beginning of the movie. Yeah, like the opening scene. You get everything you need to know about this guy as he's sitting there writing at his desk. Yep. There is nothing fancy. There's nothing like just a guy with some beautifully crafted shots and a voiceover. And with that we know this character. It's just simple. This movie really is simple. And a lot of before, for all of the different kind of like areas that it goes, it's a very, very simple movie. Yeah. Yeah. It's a memory film. It's as Isaac and his daughter in law, Marianne, played by another Bergman alum, Ingrid Perlin, they drive from Stockholm to Lund so that the professor can accept an award. As they drive, they stop and collect people. They stop and collect memories. Isaac travels to his childhood home. He remembers his family, his first love, his first heartbreak. But what's so cool, what's astonishing, really, is to see Bergman have the confidence to place his lead aging character in these memory situations with the character's younger self and with his mother's younger self. And you just see these scenes play out. It really it really begs the scrutiny of like, did this actually happen the way he's remembering it? Because some of the stuff he remembers he wasn't actually there for. But it's yeah, it's like that's why it's this great memory piece. You know, we just we talked about Bardo like an episode of Go. And that's that's also a memory piece about like weaving in dreams, nightmares, fantasies, absolutes. It's really cool in that way. Well, and one of the cool things and he does this a lot to is that that the way that Victor is remembering things is not the way other people are telling him. Yes, that unreliable. NARRATOR Yeah, yeah, exactly. Because and I think that's actually what makes this movie so captivating to watch is because Victor is so set in his ways. Yeah, Little by little, we're watching a man who's lived a whole entire life start to maybe come to terms with a little bit of how he wasn't isn't the best person yet. Not the best person, the best husband. Certainly not the best father. He's not Yeah, he's not the most lovable of guys in the movies. Only 90 minutes. So, I mean, you're you're moving it's a it's a journey movie. It's a road movie. It has a destination. I don't know if you know this, but that guy and I may skip over after I establish their last names. I may just spare everyone and stop using their last name because I know it's. Oh, yeah, Sound good coming out of my mouth. But, Victor, this guy in real life was Bergman's biggest influence. He was a filmmaker. He made a movie called The Phantom Carriage in 1921, which I watched on Criterion. A lot of fun. That was the movie that made Bergman want to direct. So what you're seeing here is like a master filmmaker directing the guy that made him want it. Like it's crazy. It's crazy to think that, you know, they'd be like Scorsese directing Kurosawa or something. You know, it'd be it'd be nuts to, like, think about. But there was one rule that he had to be done by 5 p.m. every day so that he could drink his whiskey. Yeah, like, Oh, that was so good. The supporting cast is always great in a Bergman movie. I want to mention to first mention of Bibi Andersson, probably a favorite of the Bergman troupe. She has two roles here, which I really love. She plays Isaac's kind of a buttoned up cousin in the past, and then the very carefree hitchhiker that they pick up along the way, who her role as that hitchhiker. Like as the movie goes on, like Victor is this old guy. He really kind of forms his closest relationship, like with her. It's with her. It's like, so, yeah, so moving it and then Gunnar, like, showing up as his unloved son at the end, toward the end is is really, really great. And what's really remarkable, too, is that, you know, Bergman talks a lot about how he actually, you know, a lot of the inspiration for this character came from his father. Yes. Base of what you just said about the way his father treated him. This movie is a lot of sympathy or empathy. One grew up with a father like that, you could make so many different types of movies to bash or to get back at and the way you grew up. But he chose to actually take a very tender yet like still like trying to like, you know, you weren't the best, you weren't the best, but still also representing like the fact that his dad was a human being and lived a whole entire life that he doesn't know about. That's why, like I remember, I kept getting like that feeling of like, you know, when you're when you've reached that old and the young people represented the best. Like it wasn't until like when the last scenes where Victor's at the window and the young people say goodbye. That's like the most moving part to me. They're just like, Oh my God, happy for him. And like, getting to him and like, his real family, they don't even, like, care about him, you know, because he's tainted them. He's been an absolute, you know, But these new people are like, Yeah, we're so proud of you. Yeah. So moving. And it's like, and there they go. Like, they're never going to be heard from ever again. Like, like. And there's a great line. I just this is a great line. Just line. It's when he's he's in that dream, he's like being interrogated. Oh, yeah. It'll be guys playing a doctor. And he goes, Well, you've been accused of guilt. Is it serious? Unfortunately, yes. That's a Bergman line right there. Like guilt hanging around with you again. Don't mean to diminish any of these movies by kind of going through them quickly, but yeah, why? Yeah, it's fun. Seven. I mean, you know, we've had, like summer interludes, some with Monica. Good double feature, Seventh SEAL, Wild Strawberries, the 1957 double feature. I like that. Going to move on to another one There are more well-known movies to talk about, perhaps even from the fifties, Sawdust and Tinsel The Magician. But I'm going with brink of life here because I discovered this movie in 2017 and just knocked me out, floored me. I think it's one of the best movies Bergman ever made about women. Here's what it's about. It's not easy. Three women are sharing the same room in a maternity ward. Eva Dalbec is excited to have her child and is supported by her loving husband. A gentle Max von Sydow. Ingrid Berlin has a terrible husband played by Erland Josephson. We're going to talk about him a lot. And she's considering separating from him. And then Bibi Andersson is also there. She's alone and unsupported and resents her unborn child and is considering having an abortion. BERGMAN, who was such keen observer of the hardships of women and that's really on full display here. Every all the lead women in the movie, they shared the best acting prize at the Cannes Film Festival. Bergman actually won. Director I do want to credit Ulla Isaacson for her screenplay because this was the first film we're talking about today in which Bergman is not the credited screenwriter. And you can clearly see that influence just in the way how well-written the film is from the female. The performances are the standout thing about this movie, though. I'm just, you know, again, needless to say, nothing in America was ever made like this. At the time, it was unheard of to hear women talking about abortion, miscarriage, unwanted pregnancy so openly. It's a very honest film. There's nothing graphic like violently graphic about it. It's all just words. Beautiful, honest words by ISAACSON Wow. That's it. Yeah. Brink of life. And I think that's like I think that's why. BERGMAN movies are so important is because, like, when you're faced with honesty like this, there's nothing you can do. You're sort of disarmed. You have to surrender. Well, yeah, Like, yeah, that's why he's so good is because he just cuts to a certain place where you're just sort of like, Well, I can't argue with that. Like, there's, like, like, there's just nothing else you can say. Like when someone feels that way. Yeah. Like in American movies at the time, in the fifties, like having a kid, it's like, the best thing ever. You just got married. You going to have a kid? It's going to bring all this joy to my life. But there are stories out there, whether in Sweden, America, wherever the hell you are, where a kid for some women could potentially be a burden. And here you get to see three women talking about that for 90 minutes. I've still I've I've seen few movies like this by today's standards. And that's that's why I wanted to mention it above. Like, I don't even technically own brink of life, but I do own The Magician. I own other movies that we could be talking about, but I wanted I would just wanted to support this one a little bit, give it a little leg up, because I don't think a lot of people talk about this one. The next one, a lot of people talk about this was just a joy to get a text message from you out of nowhere. And you went, I think, man, I just saw it like I saw I saw the one like, what was it? You go, Yeah, it's the Virgin Spring from 1964. Oh, my God. This is the one that Ali was in and out of the room for. And I'll talk about that. This is another film of immense power. The most immense power. Yes. This, too, was written by novelist Julia Isaacson. Very important to mention. She had written a novel set in medieval times, as this film is, and Bergman thought it would be a good marriage of her work. And this film, The Virgin Springs, the complex morality tale after a young woman is raped and killed on her way to church, her father, played by Max von Sydow, vows revenge on her murderers. And the film posits a few dilemmas. Is the concept of eye for an eye morally correct? And even if the Bible says so, how proportionate should the revenge be to a crime? If that plot description sounds familiar? That's because this is essentially the first rape revenge movie ever made. And this was remade set in contemporary times. But remade very, very deliberately by Wes Craven for his first film, The Last House on the Left, the Virgin Spring, is also Ang Lee's favorite film. It's another one that quite literally knocked the wind out of me the first time I saw it. But, you know, since 1960, talking about a rape revenge movie. Yeah, some Gaspar do is doing a 22 and it still hits. But now we're going back to 1960. The attack in this film is not easy to watch. No, not at all. It's not. That scene was heavily censored for American audiences. And so I'm sitting here watching it like a couple of weeks ago, and I know that scene is coming and it's like you're watching this. Like, okay, John Boorman watches for Deliverance. Like it's everywhere. The influence is everywhere and I'm muted. I've seen the movie a number of times. I don't need to hear that scene again. It's like I see it. This catches Ali's attention. So she walks in the room to, you know, a horrific scene. She's like, Why did you mute it? And I went, Oh, it's just it's a little too tough. Like, I don't seen it before. She's like, Can you unmute it for me? So she watches it and she's sitting there like staring with like her jaw dropped and going, When was this made? And I went 1960. And she's like, Oh, And then she sat there for like the rest of the movie and watch it with me. She was so taken in and I go, Yeah, it's just what's going to happen from here on out is Daddy's going to find out. And that is going to try to kill those guys. And we've seen this movie a lot. This was the first one to do it. So wildly compelling movie. Won the Oscar for best Foreign language film. I love the Virgin Spring. Love it. I've been talking too much. Go for it. I don't know if I've ever seen a movie that like, similar to Ang Lee that just completely knocked the wind out of me. I was moved by so much here. There's so much to unpack. I'm confounded by it because it leaves you feeling so many different things. Yeah, like an example of it is when the wife finds out and I don't want to say how she finds out because I want people to see this movie and take it in for what it is. But she finds out in a way that so compelling and restrained, like the emotion it me was just unbelievable, the way she goes about informing Max about it and watching what he does. It's it's just otherworldly. I don't know how else to really kind of articulate where being speechless about a movie is a switch movie. Big 1960. This is all like, this is what I want. I couldn't I couldn't believe it. And I'm still like, now thinking about it. And I go, I don't think there's ever been a movie that that's that was so powerful. That's basically the movie that like in so many different ways, like, I don't think I've ever seen a more powerful film. Also without that interesting that be said about when you muted it is that I noticed a lot through this movie the absence of voice. Yeah there's not a whole lot of dialog and I like through a lot of this movie there is an intentional absence of voice to hear what's going on and I just remember thinking as I was watching it, like there's just like the way it starts is so serene. Yes, almost to the point of where I wanted to throw up. Like I was like they came like a certain point where I was like, Oh my God, can we like, stop with this cheese? Yeah. Bergman's not going to keep you in sentiment for it. No, he's not. And then that's the and that's the point is that, like, enjoy it even if you don't like it. Yes, yes. Because where this is going to go, one of the really cool things that I loved was that that's very towards the end. Max von Sydow has what is probably the greatest thing I've ever seen on film about someone trying to talk to God. Oh my God, his back and it fucking camera and he's far away. Yeah, it's like this entire thing is done with his back towards the camera, far away, and we don't even see his face and what he is saying. And you can hear it in his voice, like the power of his voice. It's the weight of this movie. It's just transcendent. It's just crazy. If that does not do anything to you, just that alone. I'm like, I just don't know, man. I just don't know. It It's just I can't say enough good things about this one. I saw Ang Lee talking about it, and Ang Lee's like, In almost all of my movies, there are really critical scenes of people with their back to the camera. Like, I wish I knew how to quit you, for instance. Yeah. Jake Gyllenhaal with his back to us like you go, Jesus, man. Wow. You really see, like, how just one scene, one simple little scene of great actor talking to God is it has this influence. It still resonates. Yeah. I mean, we're having trouble talking about it now because there's a lack of stuff to say. It's just it's so overwhelming to talk about. Yeah. I'm going to drop some trivia on you about this movie. Oh, fuck. This is insane. I'm not going to do this every time it comes up because it's a little disheartening. It's going to blow your mind. Ingmar Bergman fucking hated this movie. No, I did not like it. He grew to really seriously dislike it. It is barely mentioned in his memoir images. He considered it a lousy imitation of Rashomon. Oh, when at the time two critics and two censors. Here's what he wrote them regarding the rape scene. I don't have a lot of quotes to read today, but I do want to read this one. It shows the crime in its naked atrocity. US in shocked desperation to leave esthetic enjoyment of the work of art for passionate involvement in a human drama of crime that breeds new crime of guilt and grace. We must not hesitate in our portrayal of human degradation, even if in our demand for truth, we must violate certain taboos. What a hyper articulate way to word like this scene is necessary and it needs to be in the movie. I just wish he maintain the attitude about the movie forever, that's all. I'm not. It certainly doesn't hinder my enjoyment and appreciation of the movie. But yeah, he wasn't a fan of it. You know, this is the first time Sven Nykvist and him filmed a movie together just on their own. And wow, does it show? Because that became the most important working relationship of Bergman's life, perhaps even more than any of his actors. But yeah, I think this movie really marks kind of a turning point for old Bergman, in which a lot of his films were set in the past to contemporary Bergman, in which a lot of his films will be set now. Well, that's a very great point, because in watching these movies chronologically, there is a 100% maturation that happens. There is a difference between Bergman movies in the fifties, then the sixties and seventies, and then like, you know, like, like, oh yeah, the feel and the experimentation of the movies just continues to grow. It's it's wild stuff, man. Totally is wild. Something we could talk about forever, but we're going to move to his next three films. We got two loosely connected trilogy he called The Faith Trilogy begins with Through a Glass Darkly in 1961, Moves to Winter Light in 1963 and ends with the silence also in 1963. Start through Glass Darkly. It's presenting a new form for Bergman. It's a contemporary set film, small cast shot locally on Bergman's Resonant Island of Faro. This was the first of many films you shot there. And like you mentioned very astutely, this is a bit of like a career rebirth, as is evidence in the metaphor of all them running out of the ocean to the camera in the very beginning of the movie. What's it all about? This is an emotionally complex tale of mental health. Jealousy, deception. Karin, played by Harriet Andersson, has just been released from the mental hospital after being treated for schizophrenia. Her kind husband, Martin Max von Sydow, does not think she can be helped. Her very detached father, David Gunnar Boone Strand is using Karen's illness to, like, enhance his writing and her younger brother minus is tormented by the neglect he feels from his father. So the movie covers it's just 24 hours in the emotional hell of these four characters, mainly Karen, whose mental state slowly descends into an absolute living nightmare. And this leads to a final 10 minutes of film that I will never be able to forget out of my head. I know I'm using words and phrases like that a lot in this episode, but I just still stays with me like Harriet Anderson. Jesus Christ, like she's acting with nothing. She's acting with a wall. It's crazy. It's crazy. It's you know, when you just described the four characters, you do it well, I know you did it. It was it was really good. But I was like, you know what? If you ever are feeling like you want to start writing something and you have no idea, just like, look at what you just said. Like, here's okay, here we go. One character just came out of a mental institution. One person person's her husband kind. Yeah. The other one is using his daughter's sickness to his advantage. Yeah. And then the fourth one is neglected from everything right there. Yeah. Boom. You've got drama, You've got everything you need. You can do whatever you want. Yeah, fuck it. Bergman's like you aren't in the tight. The tight time frame. 24 hours, 24 hours. We're out and we're in basically one location. We're in one house, one location, one house. And. And all of the conflict that you can imagine that we just set up and describing those four characters is in this movie. And not only is it all in there, it's done so frickin good. The scene between Gunnar and Max. Yeah. You know, because we reached a point in that movie where truth's like, there have been secrets that have come out and then certain characters know this about the other person. And now we're setting them up in a situation where they're on a boat at sea. There's else except those two. And then these things are like they deal with it. I mean, you just can't get like writing or like character conflict better than that. And then what happens is a result. Like, it's just it's a perfect example of when everyone deals with each other in that movie the way that good conflict and characters should be dealt with. Yeah, it's all it's also lived in based on like all their different shit that they got going on. And it's like, how about that? Like low angle shot of gunner in the boat with the sky behind it? And I'm like, How did you do this? Yeah. Where? Where you get that? He's like, Oh my God, Back to back best foreign language film winner for Bergman Virgin spraying it through Glass Darkly. Sven Nykvist, the cinematographer finished me just mentioned. It's like on another level, especially that it's all in this one location. Harriet Andersson really does steal it with a finale that you really won't forget. And then one thing I like to say about this, I think I've mentioned I certainly mention it to you. I did get to see a rendition of this off-Broadway starring Carey Mulligan as Karen in 2011, and it was remarkable. It's the best acting I've ever seen her do. She flipped a fuck out on that stage. The entire theater there was only like 100 of us in there. It was a small theater and we're like, right there next to the stage. It was remarkable and it was cool to see, you know, I got It really proves that, like, the writing is so good, it doesn't really matter where you set it. Like, yeah, schizophrenic daughter, kind, husband, detached dad, really, really trouble of younger brother. You put these people in a room, quite literally and crazy shit can happen. Crazy seven There's a, there's a line that I really love that like it just I figured I would say it. It's, it's the son. And he goes, I wonder if everyone is caged in you, in your cage and I and mine. It's great. Everyone has that thought, you know, like that. Yes. It's just one of those things where it's like. And that's just that's that's a small one compared to some of the things that are people say in this movie to each other. It's so eloquent, it's so articulate, but it doesn't feel like you're watching like some philosopher talk when you're watching it. But no, it does. It does not. It feels like especially when you're reading it, like there's been so many times I've been watching Bergman movies where someone will say something, I will have to pause. Yeah, and rewind it just so I can read those words. Same sound, and just be like, My God, how did you just but not just articulate something so well, but then put it into characters where it does not sound like works is like reading thoughts like these are very lived in delivered lines from these characters, even though we don't know the language, we can feel the way that they're saying it. Yes, I think if I mean, if we're talking about language, I think we can organically move on to winter light, which is like we, one of the finest character studies ever made, comes in at a whopping 81 minutes, folks. That's it. 81 minutes long takes place over 3 hours. This is an astonishing piece of emotional filmmaking, absolutely brutal in its character depiction. Here we got Pastor Thomas Erickson Gunnar Boone Strand in a career best performance. Yes. He was literally sick with bronchitis when he was filming this. And Pastor Thomas is he's losing his faith. He has no meaningful relationships. He fears he can no longer help the people who are coming to him for counsel. I mean, sidebar on Gunnar here like this could be the Bergman goat. Stealing scenes in the seventh SEAL is Esquire as Frederick and smiles of a summer night. And to go from all that to winter light. I mean, this is a talent on display that matches anything going on in America at the same time, Brando, Clift, Dean and no one was talking about him because he's, you know, in Swedish. But the range of what he can do and how in winter light, how nasty he can be and how he and Bergman's so perfectly captured regret, turmoil, angst, rage through this character. I mean, he doesn't really start the film. I mean, now, holy shit, this. He gets there and I really I would watch a lot of these Bergman movies on the Criterion Collection due to the DVD that you so wonderfully and lovingly bought for me for I believe it is Christmas. Yeah, the boxset. Yeah. Oh, man. I mean, you just had to have that. It's I unfortunately it's not. Unfortunately. I only get all of the so I have like 50 DVDs this late around summer like Japanese rip offs that I left because it was the only way to his early stuff and I still have those. So it's hard for me to justify to buy that box. Exactly. Own them all, but that's all Blu ray and I don't own them all on Blu ray. So that's that's kind of a selling point. But anyway, highly recommend if anyone's watching and listening to any of what we're saying. And you have the Criterion Channel. Bergman has these little tiny where he introduces each movie and they're all great. I think my favorite one is how he talks about this one is that he believed that this is the bravest picture that he's ever made. It came off of a time where he wasn't very thrilled with what he was putting out and felt that he was ingratiated by the business and that he decided that this was the first movie he was going to make, where it was just the stories he wanted to tell. It was. And so he said that this was the closest movie to him. Like, I think the theme of Gods Silence is a huge theme throughout all of his movies, but I think it's really one of the biggest ones here. One of my favorite parts of this movie is that we start with a very, very long search scene. Yes. Sermon like, yeah, yes, it's a mess. I mean, it's a mess, basically. And we're watching basically in real time this mess, which sounds like it would be the most boring thing that you could ever watch. And I was enthralled the entire time because the way that him and Sven Nykvist. How you say his last name. Yes. Sven Nykvist Nykvist. I mean, yeah, you know, is there's no one better at capturing faces than this fucking guy. No, because this mass is only filled with about like, five people. Yeah, that's the kind of the thing is that there's no, there's nobody there. Yeah. We get to have like, these ideas about what the lives of these people must be. If these characters are so emotionally alive, then they're going to wear those emotions on their face and you'll be like, Wow, I wonder what that person does for a living. I wonder, like, what they're going to do after this church is over. How much do they believe in God? Clearly A lot. Like one of them's crying and, you know, there's just so much to kind of ingest about what we're seeing. And this is all before we know anything about the movie. Right. One of the coolest things I've ever seen in a movie, I fucking took my breath away when we cut to that monologue. Agh. That's the first scene I'm going to mention with Marta. Ingrid Berlin literally looking right into the lens of the camera because the pastor is reading a letter from her. So then we boom, cut to her, reading the letter, not even reading it, saying the letter to us last nearly 6 minutes. She's just looking right at us. Never, ever seen an American movie like people literally went to this movie going like, I have to see the scene. I've heard it's looking at us. It does. It takes your breath away. One shot, one take, and there's no special like Fade away. No, like, no. Just cuts. Boom, boom. Here we go. Right there it is. Fucking great. Yeah. That's one of the highlight scenes of his career by the second really Bruiser sequence of Winter Light, which is Thomas's response to that letter when he puts her down and says, just some of the nastiest. That's nasty. I've heard from one film character to another person. There's no cursing, there's no yelling. It's all just words fucking Bergman, man. He really was the best screenwriter. He was the fucking best. And this is another thing is like we're talking about something like this is one of the heavier movies from him. Yes. Yeah. I think there's a certain point where I don't know if this happens to you when. When Bergman's really going to get down and dirty, right? And he's going to get as nasty as can get. I start to relish it a little bit. No, no, I root for it. I'm like, doing. Yeah, I'm like it. Oh, you said what? All the shit like, Yeah, I'm like, it makes me think of like, has he ever said this to his life? Like this shit? Is that it is so, so me, it's so mean, but there's something that becomes almost primal. Yeah. Because it's, like, beautifully written. It's beautifully regulated. Yeah. You know, unfortunately, sometimes there are people that make you so mad that you've had the worst thoughts of your life, right? That like, No, those exist. It's human human nature to have some pretty evil, horrific, awful thoughts and opinions or things to say about people. So Burgess finds a way to channel it into a logical way that a character might feel about somebody. And why do you think I like this movie so much? Yeah, it's just fucking like it. And it goes for both. Like if I'm talking like men and women, like, he talks this way. Men talk to men this way, women talk to women this way. Oh, yes, talk to women. He is not. It's not just men. Women. No, not at all. No one is safe. No one in his films. Like he'll go after anybody. And when it happens, you're like, Oh, let's BERGMAN Jesus Christ. And there's you're in it. There's almost humor. Yeah. On the other side of so much awfulness, you kind of have to laugh like, Jesus. Yeah, I'll get to one when we get to the movie. But it's a very different experience I had with it. Yeah, Winter light. I mean, these two Bergman and Sven like, they constructed that church on Faro and then spent days sitting and watching how the sun would affect the lighting so that they knew when to film. And to get the best lighting like the movie doesn't really look like many of other Bergman's movies. It's handheld. Some of it, it's cold, gritty, just feels like detached and gritty. And if anything we described about winter light sounds familiar, that's because I don't know how he was able to do it without giving credit to Bergman. I mean, First Reformed is a remake of this movie. Like forget about first. Reformed is Winter light. Like, it's just it is Paul Schrader's first reformed with Ethan Hawke. I almost would have preferred if if he just said it was if it was just a remake, because same here. Same here because, well, one no one would have known for the most part, most audiences would not have known it was. And two, it's such a good remake. If it was one, like this would be a remake worthy of Bergman's standards. And like, it's Schrader's style. Like, that's the thing. It's like it feels like a Schrader movie. It goes places that Schrader goes to that Bergman does not. Yeah, he makes it enough. SCHRADER Nice. Like Pepto-Bismol and whiskey, that's all. SCHRADER Yeah, the thorns. Yes, exactly. BE See blood, that's all. SCHRADER There's there's no levitating in winter light, that's all. SCHRADER But like, even the stuff Ethan Hawke kind of says to her, yeah, it's very similar to this scene we just got done talking. It's like the nastiness, it's very similar and everything about the whole plot. I mean, yeah, even like the Meg Yeah, the Max von Sydow character. It's a little Yeah. When he meets the kids and then what happens? Happens. Yes, yes, yes, exactly, exactly, yes, yes. It was many, many similarities. Schrader was not shy about this. He said he was like, Yeah, I remade Winter Light, but I'm just surprised you didn't have to. I don't know, give credit for it because there's there's many, many similarities. That's all I saw. But. But I love it, though. Yes. Yes. So I do too. I love first reformed. Yeah. I don't think it's a rip off at all because he talks about it. But yeah, I just wish he was kind of just like, no, here's Winter Light. It's a Bergman remake. But this one made more sense. Rounding out the Faith trilogy. Here is The Silence. And I think as you suggested earlier, talking about God's Silence, I think that's what he's referring to here with the silence It's a strange movie. It's a movie about two sisters, Esther, who's very ill, and her curious sister, Anna and Anna son, Jonah, the three, arrive at a mostly abandoned hotel, and they wait it out there. For what? It's hot outside. It looks like there's a war going on. Some people look unhealthy, some people look sick, others seem completely normal. Where are we? Why are they here? It's almost like a weird, obscure, silent film in some way, like, genuinely. But we're really venturing into persona territory here. Bergman and Sven are. They're getting much more comfortable experimenting with tone, visual style, patience, abstraction, the silence. It's like a complete mystery of pain, attraction, misery, childhood, you know? What's it all about? I don't know. I've seen the movie nearly ten times and always fall under its spell. It's certainly not the easiest Bergman movie to latch on to, really. It's very sparse, very cold, which I love. But I take something new away from it every single time I see it. It's like, I don't know if can watch the silence once and walk away with a full understanding of it, which, you know, maybe people don't want to be rewatching these movies over and over and over. But. Bergman is certainly smarter than I am, so I'm happy to explore. But yeah, trippy ass movie. This was my hardest one. Yeah, I remember. That was the one where and I think you're right, though, because again, it a conversation that we bring up a lot is like so many movies benefit from a rewatch and I think all the Bergman movies get better with each rewatch because now that I've gone through this, I've rewatched a few of them and what I've gotten from them on a second or third pass infinitely different than the times before, right? I would think that the silence would benefit me on a rewatch, but then again, like should a movie be based upon how good it is on how many rewatches it takes to enjoy it? Like, absolutely it shouldn't. That's that's an argument that can go either way. I would honestly probably argue no, that a movie you should be able to take away from it and at least after one viewing, be like like who watches 2001 A Space Odyssey and understands everything that's going on. One viewing who watches Persona once and goes, I get it. But you should be able to watch Persona or the Silence once and be like, That was a well-made movie. Did I understand all of it? No. But I don't need to have to like, go back to know that it was well made. It will make the movie better for you, I promise. But you shouldn't have to the best. Again, we talked about this when we did his filmography. The Stanley Kubrick Like there is a person where all of his movies, like If you watch it that first time for the most part, like in 2001, like that's an exception, but you get it. But then every rewatch you're, you're finding more and more, but you didn't necessarily need the rewatch, right? So that being said, I would love to rewatch the silence. Now kind of going into it with a bit of a of of that history. But there were some things about this movie that hit me harder than any other Bergman movie certainly like it because it was relatively like it. Bergman had said like he kind of wanted to make as much as he could. A silent movie. Yeah. You know, people had said, like, you know, he took a criticism that there's too much talking in his movies. So He was like, All right, well, let me try to make a movie where I where everything that anyone says just needs to be said. So if I can get away without using any dialog, I will take the best example of that is that weird old man in the hotel. Like the bellhop or like the butler? Yes, like. Like what an interesting face. There's just so much weirdness going on there. But he has a scene with the kid. It's my favorite scene in the whole movie where he's like, eating in the hallway. Oh, yeah. He invites the kid over and this old man, like, barely talks. I don't know if he speaks the language or if he's, you know. Well, that's the thing. Some people are, but they can't understand the language. Like it's not subtitled. They're not speaking Swedish, but they're speaking like, I think it's like gibberish. So it again is is establishing like, where are we? What the hell's going on? What the hell's going on? What I took from this is that this old man starts showing this kid, this picture of someone close. This old man had just died. His subtext was him just not understanding, like death. Yeah, and there was like, this over his eyes was just this, like, complete, like, confound it with it. Like, just not understanding. Juxtaposed with a kid right next to him, not caring, eating candy, like. Yeah, like, I just saw that and I just go, This is great. Like, that was my favorite moment of the whole movie. I love that. I didn't like it at all, but I know that's a really good scene. Another for talking about specific scenes. This was one of Bergman's most successful films thing. Yeah, largely to a very brief clothed sex scene in which Anna watches a couple go at it in the back of a theater. It's so amusing to me that audiences, I mean, they flock to this movie when they're about this scene. And it proves that, like, even though Hollywood wanted to keep their movies proud at the time, audiences were ready for more. Because, like American audiences really went to this thing like in Mass. And I promise that the reason we got the American Seventies is because of movies like The Silence. Oh, yes, like Rashomon, the 400 Blows. Bergman needs to be brought up more in this conversation of, you know, he helped blow the doors off censorship and create more of a tolerance for stronger content in American films. That's all the end scene for me. Like, because we'll into some of the harshest scenes I think he's ever made. I think this is it for me. I think that that scene, it's a tough one. Well, I mean that that harder than cries and whispers. Oh, well, God, that's such a statement. I mean, you know, still played by Ingrid Bergman. It's like she's slowly dying and she's just guzzling vodka and chain smoking whole time. Like, it's like, whatever. And oh, man, when that when that turns the corner that some it doesn't top cries and whispers. For me, that's like Jesus Christ I but it's a tough exit, I'll put it that way. Yes, it's a tough exit. And I think because what it really was for me, I mean I mean, you could draw all of the similarities and people who watch will know between that scene that was almost to me like cries and whispers and. Sure, sure. Yeah. And there's things about cries and whispers, but the thing like did it for me was the some of the dialog that she says God, yeah. Like have we don't know what's happening to her. Like she's just having like this fit of some type and it's just like visceral and uncomfortable. I was like, I remember when it was over, I was like, Okay, yeah, that's all right. I'm all right. I'm all right. Yeah Yes, it's a tough one. Winter light is a tough one. The Faith trilogy is pretty tough. I mean, winter light is easy in the way that it is. 80 minutes long, but it's still the content is like, whoa, some crazy shit. Here it is, Wolf. Here we go. Dedicated listeners of the podcast know that persona 1966, my third favorite film of all time. First time I watched it to watch it twice in one sitting. Boom, boom. Could not believe could not believe what I was seeing. Had never seen anything like it had seen countless movies try to rip it off. Whether they're ripping off one shot, one musical cue. Oh God, what to say. Movies, cinema, film doesn't get better than this to me. Movies do not exceed this. This is as good as the art form gets. Genuinely, I could do an entire podcast series on this movie. I could talk with you for 90 minutes about the first 6 minutes of this movie, easily. This being Birdman persona is actually, I think, one of his easiest movies to describe, but easily his hardest to explain The movie is about a famous actress, Lisbeth Volga, played by Liv Ullmann. This is her first Bergman role. Hello, Liv. Welcome. She goes mute on stage one evening and cannot find the will to speak. She's hospitalized, and her doctor suggests that she spend some time at his remote home with a nurse. Nurse Alma, One of my favorite ever Bergman characters played by Bibi Andersson. That's it. And the rest of the movie is just there. Scenes together. Anderson speaks plenty and wow. Wow. Does she speak? It didn't take me long to describe the movie's 84 minutes. And it's beyond explanation. I mean, critics, historians, philosophers have spent entire textbooks debating what this movie is about. I'm not joking. What does it mean? And this podcast is not meant to supply answers. We're just here to admire and discuss everyone in the world, to watch persona. So I think this was this is the third Bergman movie that I've ever seen. And of course, it was upon your request, we were talking about an identity and you were like, Wait, do you see this? Because you're going to then see how many movies try to do what this movie did? Yep. Never do it as good. And it's not 100% true. It you know, when you look back at it like a lot of these movies, rape, revenge, it's an entire genre. It's an entire genre now. Yeah. Yeah. The controversial opinions of characters that of, you know, thoughts that these characters were or saying in the fifties and sixties would never be uttered in American cinema. Oh, my God. So the first time I saw this, you get just that opening. I think this is this might be Bergman's one of his most experimental movies. In a lot of ways. It is the most experimental movie he did without question. It's the most one of the most experimental movies I've ever seen that actually works. That actually works. Tension glands. Yeah. There's nothing really that you can put into words when you watch that opening, like right before you actually meet our main characters. Yeah, like you've tried. You've tried. I want to know where David Fincher got the idea to show one frame of a penis in Fight Club. Right here. Right here. Go back to sort of. You want to know where Jonny Greenwood got the idea to start? There Will be Blood with those musical. Go to the first 6 minutes of persona. It's all right here. It's here. It's all so unbelievably complex. And that's sort of what this movie is. It's simple, but it's complex. Yeah, I remember the first time and I still feel this way. I wanted to confirm it. I love movie monologues. Oh, my God. It's my favorite movie monologue ever. Yeah, this is mine. And it's. Well, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Which one are you talking about? You're talking about the sexy one. The sexy one He's talking about sexy men. Okay, Yeah, that's a good one, too. That's. Which one's yours? I've never heard anything like that quite in my life, especially in 1966. Movies. Yeah. Oh, the monologue at the end, which is delivered word for word. Word for word twice. Twice just with the camera on different actors. And it lasts like 5 minutes. So 10 minutes of this 85 minute movie is the same monologue twice. Back to back, and you get something completely different from it. Oh, my God. But no, there's yes, there's a very long monologue about a sexual encounter that is. Well, it's very well. Yeah. And I think the reason it's my favorite monologue is for like a lot of reasons. Well, one, it's the writing because it's shocking without being for shock value. Yeah, it's just honest. It's a very honest description of a consensual sexual encounter. It's like, whoa, It's so well-written and so well delivered by Bebe Anderson that some people actually, when they saw the movie, thought that they had seen this and the scene does not exist. It's just a monologue. And they're like, wow, that graphic sex scene. And it's like, no, those are just that's why it's my favorite monologue is because the camera never moves from her. She's just lying there. Yeah, this is all through acting. What it ends up doing to you as an audience. I could see some people like having to turn it off because it's too much. Yeah, it's fucking great. And I think this might be my favorite Bergman performance from anyone. Is Bebe Anderson in this? Because it's just Yeah, it's it's, it's tops for me. It made me fall. I mean, I fell in love with Bebe Anderson in the summer of 2009. Let me tell you what, I watched this movie back to back. I was like, Who are you? I love you. I love I mean, oh, my God. I love all of her acting. But this is like just next level. It's also, I think, the personification of fucking cool. She's like Leni Wall with that blond hair in the sunglasses. I'm Like, Who are you? Cool woman? I love you trying to form this movie in your mind the way that you put it together in your mind is, I think, the movie's biggest triumph. Yeah. The light bulbs that go off with this movie. I don't know how as as Birdman you like, do that. Like, how do you? I don't either. I have no idea. I have no idea. I mean, the movie is like it's like a Rorschach test for every individual person. Like, yes, it is. The film is how how you view the film is how you view the world. This is how you react to and perceive things. I mean, I'm hammering at home. This is just opinion, but this is the best film Bergman made. I mean, the use of color with within the black and white, the use of shadow of fog. Every time I see this, I learn something, another selling point, which I've already kind of mentioned. David Lynch borrowed whole compositions for Mulholland Drive from Persona. I mentioned that Jonny Greenwood There Will Be Blood. It's like it's Everywhere, The Double Life of Veronique, which we talked about when we did Kozlowski Fight Club. I mentioned what else? Vanilla Sky is a huge you can see a swimming pool, which is like a really trippy movie. I like that Black Swan. It's everywhere. Personal shopper. I'm just naming a few. Like there are so many influences over persona. It's the most mystifying movie I will ever see. I've spent so many hours of my life watching this movie, reading about, watching every special feature, every interview, everything that possibly exists. And it's still just this giant 84 minute mystery to me. Oh, my God, I could talk about it forever. It really is his best movie. If it's like it is like, Yeah, well, it's his most influential. I mean, people can certainly disagree with me. That's fine. But if you watch this, this is what I always tell people, like, just give even if you don't want to give a whole Bergman movie a chance, if you have not seen Persona, but you are a fan of cinema and you've like, you know, you've seen a good amount of movies, you're going to watch person and go like, Oh my God, it's Mulholland Drive. Yeah, my God, that's this. It's just it's going to be like, baffling you. You're going to see these influences everywhere and it's just, God, what does it all mean? I don't know, but I just love revisiting it over and over. There's no hand-holding in this. This is again, it's like any movie that's 85 minutes I feel like isn't too big of an ask because you're going to be in and out quickly. But like this is definitely one of his most complex films. Not really. While you're watching it, like they're talking about things that are easy to understand, but you're like, you know, why did she go mute? It's going to leave you with questions. But I have so much fun going back and exploring those questions over and over and over the screen crack. That sound effect is it's Fight Club. When the real world film comes out of the real you know, you think when Tyler Dern is looking right into the camera, you know, your fucking khakis like that, it's right there like, yes, that was the first time I saw the film, like Break and Burn. And then it's like, we're starting again. It's crazy. Oh, God, man, it is so well done. It's Gremlins two. They take that another persona for God. I love this movie so much. Yeah, I do. I think it's. It's like it's the top of the top. And, you know, it's his first time with live men who we're going to talk about kind of exclusively from here on out. Yeah. Oh, my God. But yeah, we can move on. Oh, 1968. Let's do it now. We go to our of the wolf. You know, this isn't as firm as the Faith trilogy, but there is there are like four thematically connected films here in Persona Hour of the Wolf, Shame and the Passion of Anna for movies in a row that really focus on the center of Bergman's filmmaking, which is the human condition. Why are we here? What's it all about? These movies are about the nothingness of life, the inventing, which means nothing in Swedish. That's the last word of persona enchanting to word. You're going to hear a lot in his work. Nothing in this sense of nothingness is how our of the Wolf begins with Liv Ullmann saying to the audience, I have nothing more to tell. And so begins her story of telling us how her husband, Max von Sydow, lost his mind. It's like, okay, we jump back in time and we see Joana von Sydow and Alma Ullmann Living in solitude. Joan is trying to paint Alma's nursing her things begin to go awry when they meet people on the island, including Erland Josephson and Ingrid Bergman and Bergman biographer who I mentioned. Mark Jarvis said that both persona and our In The Wolf are about artists suffering through personality disintegration. I like that personality disintegration. You know, it was widely marketed that hour. The Wolf was Bergman's horror movie like is basically his only horror movie. And it's really it's like this hypnotic fringe nightmare that in raptures me more every time I watch it. I you know, I want to hear your thoughts because you really did just watch this for the first time. What a wild movie. What an ending. Queasy ending. I think this I mean, I can't I don't know if I can say this right now. I think this is my favorite shot movie of. Oh, really? Yeah. Wow. Well, you get that flashback of this, like, so drowned out and bright. Contrast the flashback with the boy which I'm not I don't to say too much about the hot white light of that And you're like, Oh, my God. It's just. It looks so different. It's nearly blinding. But they really had fun shooting this, like getting into that, like, horror macabre aspect. Yeah. When I remember, I was just floored by the opening. Like, Liv Ullmann comes out and then just literally sits at the table and looks right at us. Right at us. I just wasn't expecting it. And this is what I kind of found from a lot of Bergman movies, especially from this moment on, is that like really with the winter light, with that monologue, Bergman just punches you in the face with something, quote unquote shouldn't do. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. We're we're looking at, you know, Liv Ullmann just comes out and just looks right. The camera starts talking. We're like, Oh, we're breaking the fourth wall right off the gate right away. Right away. Let's let me rewind a little bit. During the fucking credits of the movie, you hear the crew building up a shot. Did you hear Bergman go like, Oh, my God, It's like, you hear the setting it up and you're going, Oh, like Bergman often did not care if you were aware that you were watching a movie. He knew you were watching a movie. So to has shots of technicians on cranes like storming into frame. Like is that part of Oldman's like memory? You're like, What's going on here? I mean, yeah, our the wolf. Like, you hear the crew talking off camera as the credits roll. I mean, well, I mean, it'll again in the movie we'll talk about soon. Yes. Yes. But this is also what made me really, really quick side quest is what made me really appreciate the the scenes from a marriage with Oscar Isaac and Jessica Chastain. Yeah. Because the intros to the intro. Yes. Yeah. Like at first I was sort of like, I don't understand, like, why we're doing this, so. BERGMAN But that that's really just for him. Yeah, I can only imagine you like or if I know what I know now, watching it for the first time, I'd be like, they they're doing this right. When the scenes of a marriage remake, the first scene of the first episode, I jumped in on the couch and I was like, Oh my God, they know what they're doing. Oh my God. There they are literally paying homage to the eggman in this very metal way right here. And I was like, I love this. And people, some people did not like that. And I went, you know, that's you know, you may not know Bergman that well, sorry. Yeah, baby. Actually, that shouldn't matter. But they were doing that for intention. That's all I'm saying, 100%. So We talk about how, like Sven Nykvist is got the best closeup of of anybody. But yet. Ken, two faces. Sheriff better with the way they're composite always Yep yep the like so he's just come back and he's losing it You know she she's like she's like knitting or something. She doesn't really know what to do. Then she does this thing and I love it so friggin much. He's done it twice now. He literally counts down an entire on screen. Yep. Yep. Just with someone just being like, All right, let's feel this minute and feel this minute. And I was like, This is incredible. Like, why? Who the fuck cares? Like, and he and he's even saying he's like, 33 seconds should be up now. He's like, counting it. Yeah, it's it goes by, so. Oh, my God, I love it so much. And then like that dinner scene. Yeah, that's like, oh, my God, the the frenzy. I mean, you've seen that done now so many times. Yeah. It's like a sexually humiliating nightmare. This insane saying that just spins out of control. Yeah, you're right. We have seen that a bunch like, it's genuinely unnerving. Oh, yeah. And it was so smooth, like the cameras, like. And the angles that they got, where they're looking at certain people, like the faces what they're saying to each other. Oh, my God. The father. In deeper and weirder that it goes. I had a blast with this movie. And then the one shot with the the birds. Oh, God, it's great, dude. Like, do you just like that would all be CGI right now. That would. Of course. Of course I don't know how they get this shit. I don't know. They got this shit in 1968. It's insane. It is fucking island. How do you get a bunch of birds to come in? There is like artists from everywhere will get it cool. Hour of the wolf. Great cinematography in this one. Lot to latch on to. Yeah, few people were as good as losing their minds and Max von Sydow and he doesn't do it like he's not a rage guy. You know it's like internal and it just kind of collapses and you're like, Oh my God. And I'm going to keep that going because, a, this is a great feature. So watch our The Wolf in Shame Back to Back. These are his 1968 movies. Shame was my most Slept on. Bergman I saw it years ago and my first Bergman binge back in like, you know, 2910 didn't do much for me. Now I view it as one of his essential films. Surprise, surprise. If the Hour of The Wolf is Bergman's horror movie, Shame is his war film, because he shot it back to back with our The Wolf, same location, same general cast and crew. Shame is unlike any war film I've ever seen. It does not concern itself with military tactics or political agenda. We're given no soldiers root for, no side to lash out at. Instead, Bergman was interested in showing what war does to people, and Roger Ebert said shame was a war film that is against all war, not it doesn't pick sides. So in the film, Bergman creates a fictional Swedish civil war and uses a married couple as the entryway into the madness of the conflict. What makes Shame so unique is that Liv Ullmann and Max von Sydow, the married couple, they have no idea who is terrorizing them at any given time or why they have no opinion about the war. They're just trying to understand and survive. These are words to describe shame. But when you watch shame, you have to pay attention because of course, like none of this is spelled out for you. But I mean, there are some scenes that Ullmann has with Gunnar, who's back here in a supporting performance that are just like it is the definition of the title, and it's all captured with emotional expression. There's no dialog or if there is, it's very sparse. I mean, this is really narratively like one of Bergman's most secretly complex films, because on the surface it's this straight forward war film. But then when you dig deeper, it challenges us to identify with the nightmare of war. Like if you're stuck in this situation, what would you do and why and how good movie one that deserves, you know, deserves to be viewed a little more. I don't hear people talking about this one a lot, but it's very good and makes just really a great double feature with our The Wolf Man double feature of Bergman Yeah. Or you could do a triple feature and go right onto The Passion of Anna, a 1969 Jesus, a tie titled Way More Appropriately as The Passion in Sweden. Because this really isn't just about Anna. Yeah, this is one of Bergman's strangest films. I don't even know how to set this up. Bergman narrates the movie himself. He adds, in deleted scenes from shame that are which is really odd because shame is in black and white in the passion of Anna's in color, and most inexplicably, the passion of Anna will occasionally cut to interviews with the actors in the movie as they discuss the film. We are watching, For example, for the first 10 minutes of the movie, we watch as Andreas Max von Sydow goes about his life. And then, without warning, we just cut to Bergman interviewing Max von Sydow about Andreas. And then we cut back to the movie itself. He does this four times one for each of the characters. To this day, I have never seen a movie do this before or since the movie. I mean, let's just start there. Let's start. Let's just I don't even know how to like, like, let's pause it. And now we're talk to the characters. I don't know if Bergman felt this was in total, like a worthy experiment. I don't know if he thought it actually paid off, but it is. It's really damn strange. You see, all of a sudden, this scene, there's Bibi Andersson, just like talking about her character. And that's it. And then we go back to the movie and you're like, You go back to the movie. What was your take on all that? Oh, I loved it. So did I. Just because it was just so weird and this whole entire situation is so entangled with the four of them that it transcends the movie in a way. Yeah. Like, yeah, I don't know, like that. That's basically that would be the best answer I could guess. Yeah, it's, I mean, the movie's about this quietly morose guy, Max von Sydow and interactions with and Liv Ullmann, a sad woman who just wanders into his life, and Eva and Ellis, Bibi Andersson and Erland Josef in a married couple that they all just get to know each other. Time passes freely as the characters they deal with sexual exploration, emotional confusion, psychological terror. You know, this is not a polished Bergman film. It's very gritty by design. Like the actual film stock is like very gritty. The camera can move so erratically or can just stay still for single extended takes. It's colors really muted, but at times strangely vivid. It's I don't know. The landscapes are dirty, but gorgeous. It's crazy. So this was my so in doing like this chronological order, this was the first movie I watched of Bergman in color. Oh, yes. So, yeah, I should say he made all these women in 1964 as an homage to Fellini, and that was his first color movie. But then he takes a break. I don't even think he wanted to, like, really play with it too much. And then Pashmina, he goes, All right, let me really play with color a little bit because my next movie, I'm going to, you know, knock next movie, we're going to talk about I'm going to knock people out with color. But yeah, that's you're right. This would be the first movie that we would see in color on this list. Yeah. And it was striking. It was it was really, really something to see, especially like, you know, the characters that we had seen up until now, like Max Von Sydow, you know, to see like, that face in color. Yeah. No, no joke. This is my favorite Max von Sydow performance in any of Bergman's movies. Oh, I love that. I mean, this is you really. The movie kind of boils down to Andre, Like just losing his mind. Losing. That's like this. Oh, what a spirited choice for your favorite. I want to hear why. I mean, the thing, like, I love this guy. Like, this is like, to me, like, if you were to think about, like, what an actor is like, I think of this guy. He has a very, very masculine power to him. But then what I loved about this movie was like, at times he was the most tender I've ever seen him. Like there be certain ways where he would like, meet certain people and he was just so nice and open and caring. And then he's getting rageful drunk by himself, just like, Oh yeah, just you know, screaming. And then with Anna, you know, he's so cold and mean. And then he's got that monologue to her about humiliation. Oh, my God. And yes, that's just like he's a very closed off guy. And then this is the closest that his character can come to explaining why. And it's very vulnerable. It's beautiful to watch and it's it's brilliant. I think this movie is an allegory for what it means to be in a relationship. It could be, I think, quite a few are, but yeah, you could be on to something Winter like could be as well, I suppose. And that's not who you are. Yeah he's made other summer interlude is a very nice what it means to be in a relationship and the good aspects of it. But yeah passion of an on again like definitely an experiment in emotional derailment would say yeah for sure we're going to skip over one 1971 the touch his first movie in English not my favorite because I want to get right to cries and whispers in 1972 which is right up there with persona as you know as good as movies get. Bergman never used color like this. Few directors did. This movie is so damn saturated with vivid colors or a color with red that goddamn, that haunting, beautiful red, the red room, the walls, the carpet, the clothes. That's what made Bergman want to make this movie. He had an of a blood red colored room just soaked in this color. And he made the entire movie based around that. That's also why the title of his memoir is simply because a lot of his movies just start with that. Those piercing images. Yeah, that just won't go away. Yeah. And I think this is these might be my favorite. Yeah, these opening shots are just some of the most beautiful with the lighting coming from like the trees, like, Oh my God cries in whispers. This is 90 minutes long and this is one of Bergman's toughest films I'm going to sell to You Straight takes place at the end of the 19th century and is set almost entirely within a few rooms of a large mansion. The red of this mansion will haunt anyone who watches. The master will sparse bathes in blood red color for women. Occupy this lifeless space. We have Harriet Anderson, who is slowly, slowly dying of cancer. I mean, few film deaths just get more emotionally gruesome than this. Then you have Agnes's Cold Sisters played by Liv Ullmann and Ingrid Perlin, and they have a maid played by Carrie Suelen. Now We get back stories of each of these women and we witness how their lives have become hell. And in that I did remember even before this most recent viewing, I was like, I got to prepare myself for cries and whispers, like, All right, I'm really going to pay attention. It's kind of tough to follow. It's not. It's just, oh, it's movie. It's not follow at all. It's just a really, really emotionally brutal movie. It's very, very easy to follow. So, yeah, let's let's start there and then I'll get into some of the backstory of it. This is right up there with one of the best movies I've ever seen. Sure says a lot about me. So I don't know if it's whether or not that I have been watching at least like 15 Bergman movies before I got to this one or the fact that I had already seen it, because I remember you showed this movie is the second Bergman that I had ever seen. This was your favorite you were talking about at the time. I think Persona was still your favorite, but you were very, very big with this one. Yeah, it's tough because persona, to me, it's just it's like on a different level. It's like what we're talking about a movie. We're talking about like a fucking art installation that like defined my life. Like persona just has to go over here. It's like, that's the number one, like just movie or. Bergman to me, you know, And the Guys in Whispers is very, very closely under that, yeah, I feel like that first viewing that I had with Cries and Whispers was so intense that I wasn't fully to appreciate it. Of course, I totally get it. Yep. It's everything. It's the color, the unbelievably horrific sounds that that movie generates. Yeah, it's a bummer time. It's a it's a bummer time. But to someone who who has not seen this movie, maybe to kind of know that going in might actually be beneficial. Yeah. Because the second time I watched it for this I had that what you just talked about, I remember I said, now I go, All right, today's the day. I'm going to watch Cries and Whispers again. Oh, I didn't think I'd be back here. And once it started and everything's going on, I'm like, more than okay. I am, like, super involved, super invested. And I'm watching just like what you said. Like, this movie is not hard to follow all. And it's so well done. So well done. I couldn't believe how good it was. Like I was just like it was the complete different experience that I had that first night. This is this is what it means to watch and rewatch. BERGMAN Absolutely, because it's not as punishing the second time, not as you know, what to expect. And there are things in it that are like, tough. I don't want to, like, oversell. I mean, we're not like gasp pardon away territory here. It's something no know too I'm talking the emotion of it. It's very, very tough. It's yeah, brutal emotional stuff but when you know to expect it and you go in you're like then you can pay attention to the craft and pay attention to the story now is telling it and how like every time this dude wants go to a different time period, he like cross fades with that color red. He doesn't just cut or fade to black. He like crossfade with this deep red. And it's it really, really does pull you in and it really just hooks you into this world and it's super and it's super understandable. Like all of a sudden you start hearing the stories. Yeah. And, and now we go, We're going into a flashback. Yeah. Like it's, it's basically spoon feeding you. Yeah. The coolest thing about this movie is the way that we are revealed these back stories because we're seeing these people behave the way that they do and then getting to learn why, Right? Because these are like these are cold women who have been through. They have not seen a lot of light and we don't know why. And we're talking like ice cold. And then, yeah, he gives you context, which is which is, wow, Yeah. The first time we meet the doctor and he goes to see Agnes and he's like, he's like, touching her belly. She just grabs his hand and just, like, brings it to, like, chest. That moment just got me, man, because she's. It's all about connection. That's all these people are looking for. Is that actually. Yeah. And she's the one who's the most open to asking for it because she's at death's door. Yeah, she's at death's door. Her and the maid Anna, who's not really. Yeah. Yeah. They are the ones who are most like, content with everything that's going on and they have the hardest jobs. The other two sisters, Liv Ullmann and Ingrid Berliner. Like, just miserable, miserable. Yet any time that, you know, Agnes needs anyone, she's just like, hold my hand or, like, hold me like, she just wants for anything. Just physical touch. Yeah. The first time watching it, Harriet Anderson's disturbed me because the sickness is what shined through the first watch. And this one, it wasn't the sickness. It was everything else. It's. It's her humanity. Yeah, it was the sweetness. It was the tenderness. And it was the vulnerability. And then, of course, like the. Oh, my God. It's like you're never really at death rattle. It's like one of them, like, ever. I can't believe the same person who was in summer with Monica. Like, it's crazy. Yeah, that's total person. It's wild. 19 years apart. Wow. We were talking about this one. We were talking about winter light, about how you could have relish in. In Bergman's nastiness. Oh, yeah. This was a great example of how it just made me laugh, like, Welcome to Berlin. It's like, it's so brutal, but At the same time. It's like the second viewing. I was like, Oh my God, Like this guy right here. Like, you almost kind of have like, a little bit of levity break in a way. Yeah, sure, sure. I mean, as much as you can get in a movie like this. Yeah, I get it. I get it. But that's what I mean. Like, Bergman has that capability to go from one thing to another, and neither of it's wrong. Like, if you happen to be laughing at a part where it's probably not great to laugh at, that's okay. Oh, God yeah, absolutely. One thing I won't laugh at in this movie is when you watch it, we've mentioned Ingrid Turtle, and along the way you will never forget her. What she does is I've I've never forgotten that so long as I've lived. It's just it's one of the most memorable things. And I was like, Oh, wow. I had no idea you could do this in a movie. Even in America in 1972. Like, I had no clue. Like, Oh, wow. The thing that I remember watching about it the second time around was like, We don't know much about that sister up until, like, the last third. Yep. After coming out of that scene, like the coldness that she has her coldness is justified by like, if someone is willing to do that to themselves. Exactly. Exactly. The idea of trying to break through on some type of level, it's impossible. Right. And that's what made me appreciate the ending so much more is that that last conversation that that Liv Ullmann and Ingrid Thulin have with each other. Mm hmm. The subtexts, like. Yeah, Yeah. After everything that's happened. Exactly we're going about business as usual. You're going off. You're way. I'm going off my way. But here's a little little like. Like twinge in the eye, so. But let me let you know what I think of you. Like these very, very subtle digs and cuts in. And I just remember, like, that was one of my favorite Ullmann moments of her entire career. And working with Bergman was just that last moment she has with her sister in that bed. I'm like, Oh, that was so loaded. So it was it was fucking great. Yeah. And these are people who are like, living in these characters, having like a year or two to prep. They're making a movie a year. They're just like, crushing them out, breaking them out, cranking. You know, you mentioned the end, like very recently on episode 69, Movies That Make US Cry. I mentioned the final scene of this movie as one of the most moving things I've ever seen because, oh yeah, Bergman carries us through for 85 minutes of emotional torture. And then, you know, it's just it's a nice, warm, soft landing and it's peaceful. And we talked about this, how some of his most emotionally brutal movies can end with this sense of hope. And it leaves me, it's why Cries and Whispers will always be one of the most important movies I've ever seen. And I've seen it so many times. And I'll watch it again and again and again. I watch it three times to prepare for this. Can I say what could I say? Oh, that was so much fun. An all timer from it cries and whispers. I'm so, so glad that I formed a different relationship to that movie. With this. With this rewatch. Yeah, me too. Because you said it best. It was punishing that first time. It really is. Yeah. I mean, I can't imagine how it felt to people in 72. I got this next one. We've talked about it. We've given it a lot of airtime. Scenes from a marriage, 1973. We actually talked about this one before way back in episode 34, Top ten Films in 1973. That's the episode where my friendship with Nick completely unraveled. Go back and check that one out, folks. I promise it will not disappoint. Scenes from marriage were ten years in the marriage of Liv Ullmann and Erland Josephson. The story, when the story begins, are being for a magazine and everything seems, you know, it's. They're buttoned up but content. Don't worry. It's only going to take a few scenes for everything to completely fall apart. The can still receive this story in two ways. There's a full Swedish television version, which is four and a half hours long spread out over six episodes or a nearly three hour film that aired in American movie theaters. Both are great, but if you're going to go in, just go give it its full time. Do it. Watching this directly after cries and whispers is shocking because they look nothing alike. And there's there's a little context for that. Bergman actually put up a lot of the money for Cries and Whispers himself. He couldn't find anyone to finance it. A big shocker there with scenes from a marriage. BERGMAN He set limitations for himself. Modern day setting Blanc Interior sets, heavy dialog screenplay, six scenes that take one week to shoot each. And even though this is like the total opposite of cries and whispers, it really shows you everything. The full breadth of his talent, because it's, you know, they're just so different. Let's open it up. Scenes for marriage. I know we talked about this one. We just talked about also the remake, which I thought was really, really well done. But really, yeah, here we are in on so many levels. It's Scenes from Marriages is maybe his most simple thing he's ever done. It's very simple. You're right. I completely agree. I recommend going with the television version and, you know, just do it the way that people do it all today. Just watch an episode, then watch another one later that it's actually more accessible probably for most people to watch it this way, as opposed to the three hour movie version. Very True. Very true. I think the coolest thing about this movie is what it did to Sweden. Oh my God, That's where I was going to go next to go for it. So in Sweden, very much everything was ruled by this. The, you know, the philosophy for a long time, as many different places did, where marriage for life. Yeah, sure. For better or worse, till death do us part. Yes. As you vowed. Yes. And here comes scenes marriage, which examines really? Maybe we don't need to do that. Yeah, but we can. We can cut it off. We give you and just divorce. Sure. Like, maybe this was a good idea. Then it's not a good idea now, because once this movie out, it was like people, like, literally weren't on the streets when it was aired. Everyone was inside watching TV. They were all watching like the police said there wasn't any like activity because everyone's just at home watching it. As subsequently divorce rates shot through the roof and therapy like psychiatrist offices blew up. Divorce rates apparently doubled in Sweden the year after the series came out, which is like, that's just crazy. Crazy. So many people are watching this being like, oh, that's kind of like us. Yeah, I think we're better off apart. Fuck this. Yeah, because a lot the movies about them re as individuals, especially Liv Ullmann rediscovering her sexual identity. And she just thought she was in like, this loveless marriage run by this guy. And then she figures out, like, I still got a lot of things to do in that department, like, I'm okay. And I think that was the prevailing wisdom of a lot of these couples we're talking about. I think a lot of people who realized they had a maybe some more things to do. I guess I'll just say, and I think it's overall like an examination, like, hey, am I happy? Like, are you are you happy? And I love that, you know, like, there's two there's two ways to think about that. Fact of what it did to Sweden is like, that's good or bad. And Bergman loves it. Bergman is like, Oh, yeah, I'm so proud of it because it means that people are talking to each other, they're communicating, they're expressing their needs, their wants. And you got to do what makes you happy and staying in a bad situation. I'm not speaking for everyone, but maybe staying in a bad situation isn't the best thing. Yeah, I mean, if people were watching this and reassessing their lives and I don't imagine all those divorces were like in vain, you know, some people probably really happy like, Oh, yeah, this is it. Just, you know, it's it's, it's so crazy. The cultural impact that this movie had on the country, like in real time in actual, real life. Oh, it's great. It's crazy. And It's and it's and it did very well in America, too. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It was it was not eligible for the best foreign language Oscar because of BBC rules because it like aired on Swedish television. First people were pissed about this. Frank Capra. Fellini wrote an open letter to the academy. They were pissed about this. And this isn't like some obscure director. The dude was nominated for best director the year before for Christ, and whispers like, That's how important his movies are. But oh God. And Scenes for a marriage was followed by a sequel, Saraband, which was also Bergman's final masterful film. We will get there very soon, don't worry. But we're going to move on to face to face 1976. Can't wait to talk about that. I fucking love Saraband. Face to face. Wow, this is a goddamn twisted movie. Live Oldman's only Oscar nomination was for this film. This is right there with persona and Hour of the Wolf as this living nightmare. But now we're in modern day Stockholm in living color. So where to begin? Face to face is basically about Liv Ullmann losing her mind. Perfect. Perfect. Famed Italian Dino De Laurentiis. He's credited as a producer on this film. And you feel some of his influence. He really like to erotic thrillers, perverse, dangerous material. Ullmann plays a psychiatrist who is slowly having a mental breakdown. She has these crazy dreams and nightmares that feel so real. And you're watching, like, is this shit real? I mean, I don't know. She's married, but she never sees her husband. She begins to have an affair with a doctor. Erland Josephson. Always. But it isn't really a connection based on sex. Because Ullmann's character, Jenny, she's very, very repressed. I had no idea what to do with this movie the first time I saw it, which was after I Blind bought the DVD and I watched it again last week, only the third time I've ever seen it. And I had a much better understanding of her torment. Damn, this thing is a top tier Bergman mind. Fuck. It is so fun to watch Bergman in a dream space because he can do whatever hell he wants. And it's like, yeah, he puts these dreams on film. And I don't know, we've seen him do that before, but not in this vivid contemporary color. So this is not an easy film. It is tough scenes, but it's a very, very trippy one. So I just recommend it as one of his top tier films face to face. Well, had a lot of crossover with America because it got nominated for some big Oscars director actress, stuff like that. 1976 big year, big year, Taxi Driver Network, All the President's Men, Good year, strong year, 1978. All of Sonata. Ooh, Jesus Christ. Wow. She's Christ Talk about it. God damn gut punch of a movie. This is one that I was not ready for when I first saw it in my early twenties. But I am different now. Things are different and this thing just hit so hard. It is such an exacting portrayal of the mother daughter relationship. Yeah, I'll set up what it's about first and then you can tell me because I've never heard you. You know, I want to know your thoughts on this one. The movie's about Eva Liv Ullmann, who invites her mother, Charlotte. Ingrid Bergman. This is a marriage of the Bergman's Ingrid and Ingmar here. First and only time together, Charlotte arrives at his home for an extended visit. Okay. Charlotte is a very famous pianist who has been away performing, so the two have not seen each other in, like, seven years. And their visit goes smoothly. They're talking initial small talk, chit chatter. But then Eva reveals, a big secret that Eva's disabled sister, Helena, who is also Charlotte's other daughter, is in the next room and things go way way bad from there. So what are your early thoughts of Autumn Sonata like? This movie fucking devastated me when I rewatched in 2017. It was. It just knocked me out, man. Man Well, first off, let's just talk about the colors. Oh, my God. One of my favorite looking movies of his life. So beautiful. If there is not a more appropriate movie to be, have the word autumn in it for the way that it looks like. I mean, it's beautiful. It's probably one of visually my favorite movies of his right up there. I love that we start off with the husband's P.O.V. of this. Yeah, exactly. It's it's another one of those things where throughout the whole entire movie, this husband, he just kind of like shows up every now and then. His witness, he doesn't want to interfere. He comes down sometimes when they're in the middle of a fight and he just kind of peaks and he goes, Oh, and walks away. He's kind of like everyone still alive. Yeah, exactly. Let me know if you start killing each other. But. But it's cool that the story's kind of framed from him because. Yeah, impartial person, you know, that's kind of like calling out faults of both of them and seeing, like, you know, he's looking at his wife and mother in law. It's a different relationship than mother and daughter. You know, I think it's probably the best example of a movie about a mother and daughter relationships right up there, right to it. It's brutal, but it's real. I love the way Liv Ullmann looks. She almost with her pigtails. Looks like still that child. ALL Absolutely. Yeah. It's so intentional because that's how she starts as just like, she's so innocent, intimate. And then she really comes to life as the movie goes on. Yeah. Her like building up courage, building up confidence in. In the way she carries herself. And just in the way she looks, the way she looks like there's times where she's like you screaming at her but she looks like a little kid screaming at her mom. Yeah. You know, you understand both sides. I really felt with Ingrid Bergman a lot. Yes. She was not a very good mother, but she had a goddamn life. She was. She had a life. She had a career. And she resents her kids for it. Especially the one who is perpetually sick. She. She's a woman. Missing. Missing that ship of. Oh, I gave birth to you, so I'm responsible for you. Like she. She's like I gave birth to you. But that's secondary to my legendary status as a concert pianist, so. Yeah, and. And it's tough. It's tough. And there's flaws in everything. And what makes it so compelling as an audience member for every flaw, there's also an equal understanding. Like. Like I would never look at any Bergman character. There's maybe a few, but those are done intentionally where you are pure evil, like you are just, yeah, the Bishop and Fanny and Alexander. But yeah, that's like you're just pure, pure here. That is. That's the point, that character. That's the point. And so when you're watching these two, I'm seeing both sides from all of them. And, and when you're at war, like these two are like, it's just a feast. It's a it's a feast of, of human drama. So much of this movie, like oboe stabbed here, like the back half of it, it's just these two arguing, like back and forth. And we I mean, we mentioned this. We spent a podcast episode talking about our favorite movie arguments. And when nearly like one third of this film is just a drunken argument between Iva and Charlotte, it's a scene that matches like the best acting that Ullmann and Ingrid Bergman have ever put on screen. I mean, Charlotte's just yeah, she's. She's right up there with Pastor Thomas in Winter Light for, like, her sense of emotional manipulation, narcissism. It's like it's really, really wild. But, I mean, I love the scene when they swap at the piano and she's like, No, that wasn't good, sweetie. Let me show you how to do it. And Liv Ullmann is just like, stare at her mother. Her mother, who's, like, taking her down by playing the piano. So, so well after her daughter's just, like, attempted to do it. Yeah, but can you imagine? It's like it'd be like a like a little girl being like, Look, Mommy, I'm reading now, and she reads a story. It kind of messes up a few words. Then the grown adult takes the book and is like, no, and then reads it with like, perfect diction. It's like, Well, yeah, you're fucking expert. And of course, like, it's it's not a fair comparison. You're an adult. Yeah, exactly. Age and perspective just made Autumn Sonata so much better. For me, it is another emotionally draining film so full of longing, emotional cruelty. Yeah, but perhaps a little understanding. And I also, I love seeing Gunner show up at the end there as Paul. I love that just sitting there, you know, it's nice to see him in that silent role. Oh, so good. My favorite part of the whole entire movie is the end. Yeah, Yeah, Same here. It really lands that ending and it's like, Yeah, because I don't want to say what it is or how it happens, but like, realizing that that's what happens. It's honestly, it's perfect, though. It is perfect. It's very real. Yeah. It's just the best. Oh, my God. Another one we've talked about a lot. The other one you and I both absolutely love. It's Fanny and Alexander from 1982. Jump back to episode two seven Top ten films in 1982. Underrated episode. I like that one. It's a great year. Great. You hear much like scenes from a marriage, Bergman's magnum opus, Fanny and Alexander. This aired as a five hour long series on Swedish TV and then was released as a three hour film in American theaters. I only had the three hour version for years, and that was all I saw until I could get a hold of this five hour masterpiece. And it's just better. I mean, that version is a masterpiece itself. And this it it doesn't even feel longer. It's wild. It just all moves. We got a year in the life of the large exile family. We begin in joy. We lead to dread, and we end in mystery. I'll say this is an expansive film, and that's more than 50 speaking parts. Bergman had a lot of money to make it, and a reason why it won. Cinematography, art, direction, costume design and foreign film. Is this movie better than Terms of Endearment? I would certainly say so, but one asked me the result. I mean, the result is a movie of just absolute epic importance. It's genuinely one of cinema's grandest achievements. You are a fan of film and cinema. Watching this is really a treat thing is just so much fun. I mean, as moments of like emotional terror. But oh, it's a feast. It's like a love letter to cinema, genuinely. Oh, this movie has it all. Yeah, yeah. Any series or television version, however you want to put it, and watch that one again. Same thing with scenes from a marriage. Just watch that much. The whole deal. Yeah. If you're there, you're there. This movie changed my life. This movie. It it. It really is something to behold. Yeah. And it did click with me. And like a lot of personal reasons, being a kid and fearful of of a possible tyrant, of a of a male figure. Very rarely have I really identified with that aspect of growing up other than this boy's life right? Yeah. That was really the only other movie that I really had where I was like, Oh, this is my nightmare. Right? Right. It's a feast. Like you said it, right? Like it. It's kind of everything Bergman had ever done with his entire career was leading up to make this. He never worked with a cast this large, right? I mean, it's a giant ensemble. It totally because it handles the family dynamics so damn well. Yeah, organically. Like, you just know all these people. Yeah, it's crazy. It's. That's exactly like you. Like you were met with a lot of people and it does not feel like we are having to remember who's who. Right. And and he doesn't take the time to, like, sit you down and be like, all right, here's this person. No, you understand the dynamics. It's almost like the hierarchy is in a way where it's like, okay, this is the patriarch and there's like the drunk uncle. He's great help, you know? I mean, it it you got everything. And but that's just a very, very like elementary way of kind of just explaining that this movie for as long and big as it is, is not difficult and there's nothing in it like these movies are talking about cries and whispers. We're like, ooh, no, this isn't that. Like there are some I mean, you know, the kids are like emotionally just kind of like, terrorized by Bishop in his very, very strict rules. But there's no, you know, he's not like hitting them in the face and like, making them bleed. I don't mean it like that, but just give it a watch like it's so. Oh, my God. Even if you've seen it, it's been years. It is so mystifying. It is such a good movie. And then I love seeing like Erland Josephson just plays is such good at playing like a smarmy shithead. Yeah. And for Bergman and he's so nice here. Like, he's just yeah, I love him and Fatty Alexander and I mean some there's something he it that it's like so inexplicable when he just has to do with a chest I can't even say too much and what how he does that that's one of the most inspiring things I've ever seen in a movie. But yeah, Isaac Jacoby is like, Oh, he's just he's great. He's so great. And it is nice to see him in that role because, yeah, he's. Bergman does not really use him in that kind of way. No, there's always something not savory. No. Sure, sure. All right we're going to take a huge leap here. Skipping 22 years. We've never talked about this one. I told you for the 1973 podcast, like, definitely treat yourself to this when you can. Sounds like you have now Saraband. If you wow. If you think Bergman would soften with age No two grand old age of 85, he makes one of his most, most emotionally brutal films with this honest follow up to scenes from marriage or meeting back up with Marianne, Liv Ullmann and Joanna Erland Josephson. They've been strained for decades, and she goes to visit him in his country home, and it very quickly becomes a visit of turmoil. Joana has, an older son, Henrik, And these two absolutely hate each other. That guy Henrik is really, like, kind of the star of the movie. Like, he's so good in this and. Then Henrik has an unhealthy relationship with his own daughter, Karin. It's all very, very lived in. Very good. Bergman Sendoff. It actually made me think about we talked so much recently about what Will Tarantino's final film be and how he's talked about. Well, I can't out epic once upon a time in Hollywood, so maybe I'll just a nice epilog film. That's what Saraband is. It's a beautiful epilog too. It's such a fitting epilog to one of cinema's finest because you can't really out epic Fanny and Alexander. So you just go out with this. And I mean, God, I love this movie. This thing hits way, way harder every time I watch it. I loved it. I absolutely loved it. Coming off of scenes from a marriage, I wondered if how I was going to feel. Because you're you're left with scenes from a marriage in a certain kind of way that I wondered what, like if a sequel was going to change how I felt about it, Right. It was it was the most perfect thing that I could have ever imagined. I couldn't believe how easily the characters fell right back into each other. Right. I think this is my favorite of all of Erland Josephson performances. Oh, that's awesome. That's amazing. Every time I'm watching scenes from a marriage, I would always be so bothered by Johann, not Erland Jones. Yeah, his just coldness then too. Like, fast forward, like 20 years and now they're old. I don't know. It gave me some type of, like, understanding even more. Then I go, Oh, all right. Like that just wasn't you being a dick. That was you. That's just who you are. Like these. These like he would say a couple of things that were exactly what Johan would have said in scenes from a marriage. And I was like, Oh my God, this is fucking perfect. But one of the most tender moments of this movie is when he stands up, when they see each other for the first time and he stands up and goes, I intend to hug you. Yeah, I like that. Oh, it's so good. I love it. And and that hug that they have, I got, I started to cry. Well, that's like the still of the poster that's on the cover of the poster. Is that is it really Logan? It's yeah. It's so beautiful. It's so beautiful that contained their entire history. And you know me, I have a real problem with. With old age and, like, a life lived and all that. So I was like, No, I fucking do this. This is killing me. Scenes from a marriage was so contained into the two of them. We were stuck in a room with these two people, and they're shit. Yeah. Saraband is everything that has to do with the shit around. Yeah, it's like a forehand or almost. Yeah. And then just the two of them. Yeah. And. And the two of them barely in scene for scene. Don't really have much to do with each other, Right. That's what's so cool about it. That's what's so cool about it. We're, we're watching them in their own individual ways, deal with these people. And this story that's going on between this father and daughter. Right, is the driving plot of the movie. And you've got these two main characters that from scenes of a marriage that are just operating the way that they are. It's so cool. Like what a way to do that. I had never is so fascinating to watch something big start out in scenes from marriages contained to then just being completely open to like open the world a little bit. I know it's so cool. I that's one of the best things about it because then those two actors carry it so well, like that guy and you know, Karen and your daughter, they're so, so good. I mean, God, that conversation Henrik has with his dad when he's out for money, that's that winter light level take down. I was like, Oh, my God. Like, I was. He's so mean. And, and like, I really that that actor like, because like, every scene I hated him. And then he would do one little thing and I'd be like, Oh fuck, I have sympathy for you. Like it was always, but okay, this is this. Were they, were they the daughter and the father? What was going on there? Yeah, I think there's some interest from him. I think there's, I don't know if it's actually ever like been done, but I think there's a at the very least we can call it an extremely unhealthy codependency going on with both. Yeah. Okay. That's, that's part of her like wanting to leave and him being like no, no, no. I mean it's like, No, dude, you got to go her. Like, this is. Not a normal relationship for a dad to have this 19 year old daughter like that at all. And I think that's what leads to some of the outbursts of the film. But I don't know if it is suggesting that it went there. I mean, this is a Bergman movie, but I think it's a little not quite that intense. At least that's my read. I know. I think that's a very read because now that you say that, like, there are things that make sense about it without it actually going there. Yeah, I can see some like that codependency like because because I'll be honest, like at first, like, I didn't know, like it seemed to be a little bit like, Oh, is this the new girlfriend? Right? And sure. And, and, but then it's like, Oh, no, that's. That's his daughter. Yeah, sure, sure. Welcome to Bergman. There's like a making of on the DVD that I watched that I hadn't seen before. Students like 85 years old running around the set, the whole thing on soundstages like it's crazy how they on a soundstage. It's crazy to see that they're actually like not outside And, you know, I mean, there's this great thing of like when she's running through the woods, those are actual woods. And then when she falls and has like her screaming fit, that's all on a soundstage, they like built that little pond and stuff. And to see Bergman running around, really taking his time to, like, rehearse the scenes, it's it's so cool. It's so that this guy's just running, bouncing on the floor, jumping up. It really kind of dissuades this notion of like, this is some he's not sitting in the back of the room like twisting a mustache, smoking a pipe, being like, I am a genius. I know everything. It's all planned out. He's in there. He's working it out with them. Let's work on this blocking. Let's time to crash. Like, let's do all this. Such a good movie. Such a good movie to end. Such a good movie. I can't even tell you how much I, I, I didn't know what to expect. You know, you come out of, like, basically 20 years. Yeah. Yeah. There's stuff in between. I mean, he didn't. He didn't make that many movies, but like, after there were. Well, there is from the life of the marionettes in 1980, that's that's a really good one after the rehearsal. 1984 is really interesting. But yeah, we jumped from 80 to finding out Fanny and Alexander to 23 Saraband. It's just kind of a nice little putting, nice little bow on it. That's it. Does the core 20 films. We did it. We made our way through them. We're going to not ready to stop of that either. Well that's what I'm saying. If there's interest and people want us to keep going, we can, you know, we can have a Bergman Part two. We'll see. There are a few things I want to do. We leave, which is we've mentioned all these actors along the way, but I want to hammer home the Bergman troupe here and talk about just each of their names and some of their favorite roles. Best roles start with Harriet Andersson. She's Monica and Summer with Monica. Petra Smiles of a Summer Night. Karen Through Glass Darkly. Agnes and cries and whispers. The Bishop's Maid, Justino and Fanny and Alexander. I mean, this is so hard I could go with Summer Monica like I know I was first drawn to Agnes, so I have to go with Agnes as my favorite from her. But just so weird to say I had described in whispers. I think I got to go with Summer. With Monica. Yeah. Not a bad, not a bad answer. No wrong answers. Yeah, there's no wrong answer. But I guess the reason is just because like that she was it was just a star that was just there. Yeah, It's like. It's like literally a star vehicle. Yeah, that would be my number two. Yeah. My favorite is Bebe Anderson. Oh, my God. Yeah. Oh, my God. She's me on the seventh SEAL. The. You know, Jeff's nice wife. Two roles. Yeah, Sarah and the Hitchhiker and. Wild Strawberries. She's heartbreaking and brink of life. Alma and persona Eva and The Passion of Anna. She's in the Touch, which was his first one. English. I just wanted to mention that. And then a smaller role in Catarina in scenes from marriage nurse Alma persona. Hello. I love you. You will always be my favorite. Yeah, there's that. I think that's my favorite. Bergman performance period is her in that I could watch it over and over. Gunnar Lind Bloom She's the mute girl in the Seventh SEAL. She is the pregnant servant in the Virgin Spring. Same person she is, Karin Max von Sydow was concerned. Wife and Winter light. She is Anna, the adventurous sister in the silence. She's Eva, who works with Joana and scenes from a marriage. There's more to choose from that serve it in The Virgin Spring. It's like, I don't know. I really, really remember her. But her relationship with Gunnell in the Seventh SEAL, the way he saves her from her attack. I really like their dynamic a lot. I don't know. I just love her. I'd probably go the Virgin Spring, though, honestly. Oh, nice. I was going to go with the silence. Oh, what the fuck am I talking about? Oh, of course that I just forgot about that. No, no, I'm going. Yeah, I like the silence. Yeah, I'm going to. I'm definitely going to go with the silence from her. I love the relationship she has with her sister. Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah, The silence for sure. So good in that. Yeah, she. She's just spitting venom at that last scene where she has with her too. Just one of my favorites. Be my number two favorite in the troop. Here we have Ingrid Thurman. She's Marianne, the daughter in law and wild strawberries. Cecilia in brink of life she Cecilia. The movie opens with her character. And while she's Marta in Winter Light. Esther the Dying Sister in the Silence. Veronica Terrifying in our of the wolves. Karen And cries and whispers, Oh, my God. I got to go with Marta and winter light. I think that's tough because I want to say Karen and cries and whispers. But just four for the six minute monologue alone, looking into the camera and winter light. Yeah, I think I got to do that. But it's tough. I mean, winter like silence cries and whispers. They're all interchangeable. You know what, man? I'm doubling down. I'm going with the silence again. Fuck, yeah. I love. Yeah. Mr.. This the one that didn't really work for me. Look at this. Yes, Look what's happening. Look what's happening. You want to know what's happening? Listen to this shit live. Holman Here we go. Oh, jeez Sona, our of the wolf. Shame, passion. Evanna cries in whispers. Scenes from marriage face to face. Autumn Sonata, Saraband. That's insane. That's not even all of them. Those are just the ones we talked about today. That's insane. How to pick a favorite. How do I pick a favorite? I mean, this is. I mean, I think this is ultimately, this is probably the most well know because there's a lot of the guys, too. But but in terms of women, this I think is his this is collaboration. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know. Like, I want to hear yours first. Oh, man. I mean, I guess I guess I. I got to go with scenes from a marriage. God, yeah, I think I'll do that because it's. It's. It's so much content. I really want to say. It's like it's, it's hard. It's like she plays two roles and cries and as well, like it's not just one role. Yeah. And, and I, and I like I really, really loved her in The Passion of Anna. So I and our The Wolf Man, I really, really liked her. An hour of the wolf. She's just great. She really had it. That's that's one of the best marriages of director and actor working together is this one my man Gunnar Gunnar Boonstra and Gunnar Boonstra and appeared at 23 Bergman movies more than any other. This is my guy, Fredrik in Smiles of a Summer Night, The Squire in the Seventh SEAL The Sun and Wild Strawberries. David And Through Glass Darkly Pastor Thomas in Winter Light. Mr. Vulgar in Persona Shame Face to Face. Autumn Sonata. This is Pastor Thomas from Winter Light. Just one of the all time great performances in cinema. But yeah, not to take away from his other work. I just. I love this guy. He is so synonymous with Bergman to me. And they were dear, dear friends. Which I love. Yeah. And it seems like that's with all of them. But they did not get along with while making winter light because he really had bronchitis. And Bergman was like, We're making the damn movie. And he's like, Can You give me a break. No, no, no. We're making it. So that's your favorite winter light, All right. Yeah, but now, now we're going to get this is my favorite actor of the whole troupe. Well, this is crazy. I mean, Max von Sydow definitely had the biggest crossover with American audiences, mainly because of his role in this small movie called The Exorcist, which most people saw decades ago. Certainly most any fan of cinema, a self-identified cinema lover, The Exorcist, he's so well known. But clearly, as we've said, he started here in Sweden with Bergman, Antonius BLOCK in the Seventh SEAL Father tours in the Virgin Spring. MARTIN Through Glass Darkly. Jonas in Winter Light. Jonah losing his mind in the hour of the wolf's yarn in shame, losing his dignity, the passion of Anna Andre's tortured soul for, I don't know, man. This is like Virgin Spring or Seventh SEAL. I think it's Virgin Spring for me. I think that's fucking crazy to say, because I think I thought it'd be Seventh SEAL. I think it's Virgin Spring and I got to go have Passion of Anna. Well, yeah, you said that. You hinted. You know, that's a flex. I like that. That's a great choice. Peter Crowley was saying that Ingmar Bergman. If, if he asked you to be in his movie, there was no saying no. Yeah, like that didn't exist. So No, I don't. This is as far as he is. He elaborated on it was that there was a movie in the seventies that Ingmar had asked Max to do, and Max, for whatever reason, said no. And then they never worked together since. Yeah, that was the Touch was their last one in 1971. And there's there's a pretty stark drop off. I don't know what that could have been. Did he ask. Yeah. And cries and whispers or see I know they were still like talking during the making of The Exorcist because William Friedkin was very, very close to flying Bergman in to direct Max von Sydow in that scene, because von Sydow was giving not was not giving a good performance because he's, by his admission, he's an atheist and was having a lot of trouble, like latching onto like I do not believe the stuff I'm doing. This is all Lord, but apparently like went into the bathroom and had a chat with Ingmar Bergman for like an hour. And then he came out and went to William Friedkin and said, I do the scene now while we got and we got what we got. So I don't know that maybe it was I don't know. Could it have been scenes from a marriage, could have been Serpent's Egg, maybe he wanted him to be in that as opposed to David Carradine. That's his other American movie. I don't know. But yeah, I'm sure if I did a little digging, I could find out. But they did make a lot of amazing work. And it is, Oh my God, I do wish I could have seen him in, like, you know, Fanny and Alexander or Autumn Sonata. He would have been great as the husband, but, you know. Oh, one more guy, Erland Just the sleeper. He's an asshole and brink of life. He's an asshole. And our the wolf's kind of an asshole and passion of Anna. He's an asshole and cries and whispers. That's an asshole scenes for me. It's. It's kind of an asshole face to face. He's a total asshole. And Sarah, Ben is a complete, utter fucking delight. And Fanny and Alexander I love. It's for this is either I think some of my favorite to watch him in is Fanny and Alexander, because I love that guy. I think it's the best performance is. Can we just say character in scenes for a marriage and Saraband? Is that like a good compromise? Like it's that character, you know? Yeah, But if I like, my answer is saraband. Wow, that's like, so cool. Yeah, I love that he because he, he, he did two things in one movie. Yeah. Number one, the scenes that he had alone in Saraband blew me away, but he gave more life to a character that had already been established purely by his performance in Saraband. So I'm like, I. I was blown away by him in that movie. Oh, I love it. I did want to. Okay, He did. Bergman did get nominated for a ton of Oscars. I just want to go them very, very quickly. Just the ones that he was actually nominated for and ended up winning three, but nominated for Best Original screenplay for Wild Strawberries. He won Oscars for best foreign language film for the Virgin Spring and Through Glass Darkly. He was also nominated for the screenplay for Through Glass Darkly Cries and Whispers, nominations for picture director and original Screenplay. Pretty rare back then for a foreign language film, Face to Face got him a best director nomination Ensenada, a Best Original Screenplay nomination. Fanny and Alexander. He was nominated for director and original screenplay, but he only ended up winning for language film. Lot of Oscars. I would have been cool for him to win like a core one, like an actual screenplay or God forbid, director. Imagine that Jesus just because he's not American bullshit. I mean, it is true, but one of his most frequent collaborators did end up winning two Oscars for him and. That is the great Sven Nykvist, my favorite cinematographer who has ever lived. I mean, just some of these movies are some of my favorite looking films. They contain my favorite compositions, camera movements, sawdust and tinsel. He ko shot. And then we have Virgin Spring through a glass darkly winter light silence persona our the wolf shame passion of Anna cries and whispers. Scenes from a marriage face to face. Autumn Sonata, Fanny and Alexander. He won two Oscars for cries and whispers. Fanny and Alexander. He also did a lot more than that. Those are the ones we talked about today. I don't know, man. This is tough. Like I already said, Persona is like my favorite film that he did. But then you have cries and whispers. It's like kind of. And then Fanny and Alexander is just so well composed. It's those three I love. Winter Light is great. How do you pick. One hour of the wolf, baby? Yeah. There you go. Hour of the fucking little fucking wolf. I'll do this Persona Four black and white cries and whispers for color. Okay. That's what I do. I'll go with cries and whispers for Color Hour. The wolf, the black and white. Wow. Power the wolf. I love it. Okay. Love it, Love it. Final thoughts here. I think a final selling point, talking point is, what do you think his most accessible and then least accessible films are like ones that. But then again, they've got to be good, you know, like I think yeah, most accessible find a big topic to each most is probably Virgin spring and scenes from a marriage. I think those movies are very easy to follow what you think Virgin Spring is accessible? Hell yeah. Virgin Spring fall. I don't mean terms of content here. Oh man, I'm talking said no, no. Virgin Spring is a more accessible film to me than even Smiles of Summer Night because smiles of a summer night, you watch that once, you're like, Wait, what's going on? Who are these people? Like, the Virgin Spring is very, very, very easy to follow. And Virgin Spring created a formula that most casual moviegoers have seen a movie like that since. I mean, scenes from a marriage is just so despite length. I mean, the content of it is so it's just easy to follow. That's how I think it's accessible. I mean, that's my argument for it anyway. I mean, what do you think is most accessible once I'm not yelling? I oh, I'm so okay. So when I'm thinking about accessible, I'm also thinking about like, if I was to start someone off on a Bergman movie that just wasn't going to, like, crush them in a way of being like, okay, that was that was a lot. Good luck here. Yeah, you got to say that, right? Yeah. This is a tough that's what I'm saying. They're all going to hurt in some sort of way. Probably going to hurt in some sort of way. But, you know, spring's 90 minutes you're in your out conventionally told story I mean conventional by today's standards. He was like redefining it back then. Summer with Monica. Hmm. Okay. Okay. Do you have a second choice? That. That's true. That's true. All right. I did that. Very easy to follow second choice. I would recommend the Seventh SEAL as an accessible movie. Hmm. That's a tough one. I think that's. It's hard for people to kind of latch on. I want everyone to go see it, don't get me wrong, but. Okay. Okay. Yeah. And because it's light. Because I actually think it's light. I actually think that that movie, I mean, there's there's complex ideas, but I also I mean, I don't think it's that hard to follow. And it's a road movie Like you're just going from here to here. No, I mean, I guess I could see I would. Because. Death real or are they really playing chess? A little bit, but I'll still go with that. All right. Least accessible. This is easy for me. Surprise, surprise. It's my top to favor persona and cries and whispers. I guess that's what I would probably say. It's like these these are going to be even though they're short, these are going to be tough times like these are personas, very hard to figure out. And cries and whispers is just, you know, punishing. Yeah. Cries and whispers for sure. And then maybe I would go with the silence fair just because it's so abstract and out there persona like it it just breezes by it's yes, true. Where the silence is sort of like what is going on here. Let me take a break. Yeah, that's what I would say. Showdown time, top five. Bergman, Are you ready? Five, four, three, two, one. We'll do back and forth. Will volley it for five. You want to that? I go, No, this is my fucking guy. You go first, Oh, imagine that. You heard it. Here, everyone. This is not easy either. I'll have you know everyone. I'm just going to say this. This is. I'm only saying these as of right now. This may change lists are. It's about a time and place of where we are when we make them. But so I'm literally waiting to make my number five decision until right before I say it because I've to yeah, that I've made my decision number five and I'm feeling good about it. But it's also because raw and because we were just talking about it. But number five. Sarabande Wow, that's I truly I love that movie for the movie that it was for the fact that it was his last movie and that's what he did. And for the fact that, like it transcended a previous piece of work 20 years earlier, 30, 30, 30 years earlier. Number five, for me, that's a great choice. Very spirited choice. Number five, winter light. Oh, you're going to be surprise number four from you. All right. Don't hate me. I'm not persona in. And then number four, Jesus Christ, who changed my life. Number four for me. Seventh SEAL. Oh, all right, all right, all right. Yeah. My top three. I've been a I've been reppin those pretty hard four for a good while now, so I felt good. But it's so none of this comes easy. All right, your number three. All right. My number three is winter light. Oh, I love it. I love. Wow. Absolutely loved it. Floored. Floored by it. My number three, Fanny and Alexander. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Number two from you. Movie just changed my life. Number two. Oh, God, this is so hard. All right, Number two, the Virgin Spring. Wow. Okay. I wondered that was going to crack in. I thought about it. It's so long and so hard. I think I would need to be repeat viewings and both to come up with another one. All right. So my number two, I definitely didn't know where this ranks in your overall. BERGMAN But it's cries and whispers. Yeah. So then what is your number one Fanny and Alexander Yeah, which I thought, Okay, okay. Yeah. Okay. Well, so only we have three. We have three. Okay. Yep. And my number one, the the magician. Yeah, the magician. Magicians. Good. Really? No, My number one is obviously persona. So let's. Okay, so tell me where cries and whispers is it in your top ten? Bergman? Oh, yeah, for sure. Okay, for sure. Actually, if if there was if there was a number six, it would actually go to cries in Whispers. Okay, cool. That's how much I really appreciated it the second time seeing it. Yeah. And my number six be wild strawberries, because wild strawberries and winter light were duking it out. So I'll go through mine. Five winter light for seventh seal, three Fanny and Alexander Two Cries and Whispers. One Persona Number five Sarah Band Number four Persona Number three Winter Light. Number two The Virgin Spring. Number one, Fanny and Alexander. Oh, it's pretty exciting, actually, if you think about it. It is. I'm glad. I'm glad we kind of spread around a little bit. Yeah. Love that you had that strong of a connection to the Virgin Spring. I really do. And I can tell from your text messages that one, like, hit you. People need to go watch that movie. The two movies, I mean, in a weird way, like, you know, we've been like, we've been talking about it a while. Like Ingmar Bergman changed our lives in so many different ways. But then there are those specific movies like Fanny and Alexander 100% changed my whole entire viewpoint on movies And the Virgin Spring in its way did the exact same thing. Yeah, I never thought you could capture something like that on film. We're here. What are you watching? What the hell do we want everyone to see? This is. You know, it's dealer's choice. I'm going to double down with a Bergman trying to think of one to, like, really, really hammer home. Honestly, I want to say, like any of these 20 that we've said, but I would just kind of. I would urge people to check out all of them. I just want to know what you think about this. Go watch. Go watch Winter Light. That's a that's a spirited pick. It's right in the middle of the trilogy, the loose trilogy. I mean, but go watch it. If anything, I want my number one selling point is that it's going to take you 81 minutes. You're in, you're out. There's virtually nothing about it that is difficult to follow. Some of it you're going to be privy to some of his best writing in terms of like, you know, his takedowns, some of his most simple but effective storytelling with Ingrid looking right into the camera and giving us that six minute monologue. Gunnar's best performance. And I'm mentioning that one, because if you're listening to this and you've seen first reformed and you liked first Reformed, you're going to see a lot of familiar stuff and you're you will appreciate it if you've seen it. I think anyone who watches Winter Light will appreciate it, but that's why I'm going to leave people with winter light. And I went first. How do you like that on the Bergman? I went first with the recommendation. Fuck that one. Perfect. That's a perfect. It's a like everything is said about the exact reason why it should be that movie. Well, you have 19 others. Fuck it. I'm going to double down. Quadruple down and go with winter light as well. You're an asshole. It's only because I said it. It would have been really cool if we talked about you. Convinced me. You every. Every reason that you had to recommend that for those reasons was exactly right. Convince me. Give me my dollar back. Oh, so fun. Just. I want people to go watch Bergman, That's all. I hope we haven't made this to like. Oh, it's silly, Ted. Some of them are, like I said, but this is I don't know, as far as my eyes can tell and my ears can. Yea, this is the best person who ever did it. It's a put it this way. Go into a Bergman movie with a like not overwhelming. Don't be overwhelmed but be ready to just you're about to you're about to watch something that's going to be impactful but you go in and just realize that you're about to experience one of the most articulate, eloquent, daring, bold, innovative creative and human filmmakers to have ever done it. And you're there's not one movie that you're going to watch, that you're going walk away from feeling like, Oh, I didn't get anything from that. Right? None of these things that we talked about right here, right now, are you going to walk away feeling indifferent from? You may walk away and be like, you know what? That wasn't for me. But I guarantee you something in that movie is going to hit you and you're not going to forget that even if it's a shot. It was just one shot. And you're like, Yeah, the content wasn't really for you, but I can't get that shot out of my head. And if you are one of these people who's going to be brave to dare a Bergman film, let us know on Instagram, on Twitter w aiw Underscore podcast. We said much and we could say so much more. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. We really appreciate it and happy watching who did it. Hey everyone, thanks again for listening. You can watch my films and read my movie blog at Alex Withrow dot com Nicholas Dose Tor.com is where you can find all of Nick's film work. Send us mailbag questions at what are you Watching podcast at gmail.com or find us on Twitter at w aiw underscore podcast. Next time we're going to Babylon, Nick and I are going to see this movie together and record a podcast about it right after. Whether we like it or not, It's going to be a lot of fun. Stay tuned.