Nick and Alex spend 100 minutes talking about the definitive crime thriller of their lifetimes, Michael Mann’s masterpiece, “Heat.”
Pacino vs. De Niro, shoot-outs, bank heists, curious LA timelines, the plight of Dennis Haysbert, the terror of Kevin Gage, the obsession of Michael Mann – it's all here.
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We're on. Okay, good. Hey, everyone, welcome to. What are you watching? I'm Alex with their own. I'm joined by my best man, Nick Dale. So how are you doing there, Wayne? Grow. Oh, excited to be out. Come on, man. Look, man, I had to get it on. He was making a move. I had to get it all. Heat, Michael. Man, why heat? Why are we doing a Deep Dove episode on Michael Mann's masterpiece, his definitive film, his magnum opus, many considered his best. We'll get to that later. This is a hugely important to our 50 minute crime saga that paired Pacino and De Niro onscreen for the first time together. They were in The Godfather part two together, but they didn't share any screen time. That's how this movie was marketed. It's coming out at the end of 1995, December. These two on screen together. It's Michael Mann, Dead Series Director, Crime in Los Angeles. Everyone's excited for it. We'll talk a little bit about that. But first, it's like, what's your relationship with this movie in 95, if you had one versus 2022? I've been obsessed with this. I think I saw it in 96. I remember that it had a double VHS cassette. So I watch this one a lot. Entirely too young, but I love this movie. I'm so glad we decided to do a specific deep dove on it. But yeah, tell me about heat. I think I saw heat. I can't place what it was, but I was definitely a kid. Almost all of my Michael Mann movies were absorbed when I was younger. Yeah, and I hadn't got a chance to really go back and rewatch it or if I did, it wasn't the right way. It wasn't the right way. It was like on TV, right? I would catch because it's so long you'd catch like snippets and. It used to play on TV all the time. I mean, it would be like 4 hours and all. A lot of the best parts were cut out or edited. But yeah, you're right. I forgot about that. It used to play constantly. Yep. So that was more my experience with it. The amount of times that I've actually started it. Yeah. And seen it all the way through. Maybe just like twice before we did this. Oh, wow. So, and it just like, if you really take the time to watch this thing, it's just a masterpiece. Yeah. And there's a reason that, you know, the rewatchable is one, if not the most famous movie podcast. They've covered this movie three times, and there's a reason for that, because if you watch it once, I don't know too many people who watched this movie just one time have been like and, you know, that was okay. Like, I never hear someone say I was just too long. Like, everyone likes it. It's a really well-made movie, even on a surface level. But then when you go under with Rewatches, you investigate a little bit. You see how much of this is actually like based on fact that Michael Mann spent decades crafting the story based on real people. And then you listen to like all that quote unquote, like side dialogs they're talking about, like all this surveillance, everything is accounted for. Yeah, like everything in the movie adds up. It tracks. There are some things like, you know, I love this movie. So do you. I don't think we're going to harp too much on like, things that don't work about it. But Michael Mann with L.A. Traffic. Yes. Like he doesn't really have a good, you. Know, concept of it. I didn't even think of it. Yeah. He. Like collateral is probably the biggest example they're getting from he's like, I'll take you from L.A. to downtown at 7 minutes. And I'm like, What do you have? Like a hoverboard. Or like shit like I'm talking about. Can't do that. So that's something I'm just like willing to forgive. But there's so much layered into this. I mean, we're going to get into all this, but like the first I remember the first time watching this and they're cutting me, this guy, like, cooking in a diner. It's like con, you know, he's recently paroled. Paroled. And I'm like, Who the fuck is this guy? Like, why do we keep why is he showing us this story? And then it boy, does it ever pay off like you. Cool. Yeah, man, I'm cool like that. The Dennis Haysbert plotline. I remember tracking that as a kid, being like this director smarter than I am because he's teasing something to me that I think is going to, like, come up later. I don't know why, but I know that I have to follow him and that that's just one example. But the whole movie is embedded with this stuff. Like there's a lot that any normal movie watcher is going to miss the first time you watch it. So going back and back in back, there's so much culture to watch, like you're going to get at the armored car robbery or you're going to get at the diner scene or you're going to get the bank robbery in any you know, those are only like 20 minutes apart. And then when you sit down and actually pay attention to the rest, it's like, fuck, man, this is really well thought out. Yeah. And, and it doesn't ever feel like it's too complicated. No, it. Never feels like even if you've never seen it. I mean, you do need to sit down and pay attention. It's not a phone movie. You gotta, like, sit down and that if you want to fully enjoy it. Yeah, yeah. But there is nothing that's being presented that's going to be like when you're done watching it being like, you know, I didn't really get this or it, it all tracks and it all feels very, very digestible and you feel so satisfied. But when you do go back and rewatch it, then you're like, there's so many layers to everything. Yeah. And you're like, Damn, I missed that. Like, Oh, I didn't catch that. Like, that's the sign of such a good filmmaker that he establishes this world and he's so confident to like, I'm just going to put all this stuff in it. And if you want to investigate it, everything I'm putting in this, pretty much everything matters. Like all of it, all the dialog that the cops are talking, even if they're not on camera, like when they're when they have to abort that mission, when like Kim was in there, he's like walking. He goes out there like that was always a hard scene for me to decipher, like, what are they doing here? And that's just a separate robbery from the bank. So that's separate from everything that they just had to walk away from because they felt the heat around the corner that was like when I'm listening to what the cops are saying, like in the back room, we're watching that security footage. And so for this watch, because we were recording, I really wanted to pay attention to that stuff. And it all tracks like listening to when they're coming out, when the cops are coming out of the restaurant, sorry, when the criminals are coming out of the restaurant and the cops are staring at them, like from the, you know, the building and they're talking about all the surveillance they have on them. I never really paid attention to that. And I'm like, Oh, you guys really are like following them. And then, you know, like 30 minutes later when they like, they dumped all of our surveillance, that's when if you're listening to that, you're like, Oh, these guys knew they were being like tracked. They knew they were being monitored. And then they went, you know, I had coffee. I had coffee with Nicole the. Half hour ago. And clearly it's like after that coffee break, they're all like, all right, dump the surveillance now. And we don't see any of that, but it's just brilliant. That's all I'm saying. Like he could. There's so many things he could show us that is just said in dialog and oh, it just that's what makes it going back to it so fun for me over and over and over. And I'm talking about like the down, down, down these like crazy small by new details. We're going to get to the bigger stuff. Trust me. Like, yeah, we're we're going to. Get to it. I wanted to do this a little differently because you know, we haven't even started talking about what the fucking movie's about. I guess I could get into that, most people know, but I really wanted to start out because it's such a short conversation like keep Michael Mann has prestige. Pacino has prestige. De Niro is a big deal. When this movie's coming out, they make it for 60 million. It ends up making like 187 million. That's not bad. But what it doesn't get is a single Oscar nomination, which is completely and utterly baffling that this movie came out in December 15th, 1995. I listen to Michael Mann in a few interviews and he said he said he tried to not hold a lot of stock into it, but that Pacino was actually, like really upset, not for himself, just like, here's where's the screenwriting? Where's like the editing, the sound mixing, the sound editing. Like, this is one of the best sounding movies I've ever heard, just for the bank robbery scene alone. And Michael Mann's like. I think people viewed it more as like a genre picture and they didn't want to kind of take it seriously. And I heard him say that. I was like, I guess that's a good point. I don't really agree. Maybe that was true in 95, but seven by David Fincher is absolutely a genre movie. Absolutely. And not got nominated for best film editing. So like what are we talking Basic Instinct came out two years earlier that got two Oscar nominations. So that's something I've never understood. I don't have context for it. I don't really know why that happened. Michael Mann doesn't know Al Pacino doesn't know. So I just wanted to throw that out there first to be like all by way of saying this movie was received well at the time it was, but now it is developed this life that like if someone had seen the movie, I think they're very hard to find someone who doesn't like it and they exist. Right. Exactly. And most a lot of people have seen this not even like hardcore movie fans necessarily. But yeah, I just think that's so fascinating to me. Probably in the nineties, one of the biggest Oscar holds, if not the biggest Oscar haul of the 90 of the nineties, you know, like Zodiac in the first decade of the 2000. That's crazy. That didn't get nominated. But that has to be like the number one or number two biggest Oscar omission gaffe, you know, of that decade. You told me that recently before we started this pod. And I, I think that might be my biggest Oscar faux pas flub up. Like, how does this movie not get anything? I remember I started watching the Oscars every ceremony live in 97. It's like the Titanic year. But I would stay up as late as I could and like track them the next day and look at all the winners. And I remember like in 97, because I was in love with heat at that point. You know, I like I said on the VHS, watching a lot. I remember being like, what? Oh, nothing. No Oscar nominations two years ago. That's okay. Okay. I mean, I but I also think this plays into Michael Mann's next movie, The Insider, which gets like seven Oscar nominations. I think they're trying to save face a little bit for that. And we see that happen a lot. Yeah. You know, I, I think Tarantino should have won his second screenplay Oscar for Inglourious Basterds, but they didn't do that. And then you know, he wins for Django. So we see that a lot. You see the trying to save face. I don't know. I just wanted to throw that out there up top because it's really baffling. It's super. Baffling. I don't really have anything else to say. It's just it's absurd. It's just and especially because it came out in December. Yeah. Right before the year ends. Right. Oscar nomination time. Yeah. Like that is that's your that's your movie now maybe because seven was already kind of getting in that spot. They didn't want to have two of the same could that possibly. Be why they don't like I think that 1995 Oscars were stuck in like still kind of old man syndrome of like you know they wanted the big epics like Braveheart wins that year sentence instability so big winner Apollo 13 but he. Is more in line with that than seven is. Well yeah but I mean seven did only get one nomination. Yeah, that's true. Saying it's in seven. We love seven. That's a oh yeah. Edited movie. I'm just I just brought that up by way of saying that like the Oscars were not universally rejecting genre movies. Yeah, they were allowing some in. They rarely awarded them. But it just. Yeah, it's utterly baffling. Deep zero nominations does not age. Well. God doesn't not. Should I tell talk about what the movie's about for like the two people listening to this or haven't seen it. Yet. Already. No, this is this one's easy. So you have a lifelong cop, veteran cop, Vincent Hanna, played by Al Pacino and a lifelong criminal, Neil McCauley, played by Robert De Niro. And they are both at the top of their games there in L.A. They're not hunting each other. But Vince Vincent is trying to track Neil and his crew, and they don't really know, like, who's responsible for what. And then the genius of it is, once they both figure out that they're onto each other, it still keeps going and they still keep pushing their confidence, tempting that fate to the point where they are sitting down in a diner, having coffee, having a conversation, basically in like one of the most famous movie scenes ever in American cinema, saying, like, I, you know, I actually do respect you. And I get why you do what you do. I don't agree with it, but I get it. And it's kind of nice that we're meeting here. So yeah, I definitely have this respect for you, but it's going to blow your fucking brains out if it comes to it. Yeah, let's be straight about that. But there is like, they're kind of the same person a little bit. They are. They're not too many degrees away from each other. It's like, Oh, there's no way. Vincent Hanna, as a kid, a teen growing up in Chicago, I think was part of his backstory that Michael Mann created. Like, he definitely would have gotten into trouble a little bit. You know, just being a kid, running around doing shit and what's the, you know, something could have happened where he got sent to Folsom for a little bit and that derails his life. And maybe Neil McCauley's like, Oh, fuck it, I'll become a cop. You know, that's one of the things that worked so well for their dichotomy is that they're not like they're not that different. And I just I mean, that's essentially what the movie's about. You're following Pacino's story and seeing how tracking Neil McCauley is basically like ruining his life. C Neil McCauley, his story, how he's running around with his crew and how him being tracked by Vincent. Hanna It's kind of ruining his career. And that's the movie, 2 hours and 50 minutes of it. You're watching two guys who have decided that they are going to live their lives a very certain way. And it's an extreme life. There is no room for relationships. There is no room for anything that will take you away from what you have decided to do. And I think that's very attractive to me. Like even though like it's certainly does not do well for them. No, it doesn't serve them, but they're addicted. They they cannot not do what they do and they love it. And I don't know. I mean, I think there's something really cool about watching to carry any character but two that operate on that level. Yeah. And that's what we get with this movie. Yeah. They're totally like career obsessed and polar opposite professions to the point where it is a detriment to everything else. I mean, there's a lot of scenes with Pacino and Diane Nora, who plays his wife, and it's just talking about, you know, we got together, baby, you had to share me. And she's really trying to just get through, like, can you not open up to me? Like, can you not share? Can we not talk? And, you know, I have to demean myself with Ralph, like we get that a lot. It and even Jon Voight has a great line like three marriages. What do you think that means? Yeah, he's at home every night like. No, he's out here chasing criminals, being a complete nut job, trying to find people like you and deep down, people like you. And then Neal's the same way where he's a really fascinating thing about New McCauley as played perfectly by De Niro, is that he's always he's this guy of like this prison moral philosophy, ethics, you know, like right around the corner bale 30 seconds flat, but he's contradicting himself all the time. He's breaking his own rules to his detriment to his ultimate demise all the time, constantly. And that's what's fascinating about him is because he has this very, like, stoic, like he's very together, put together, but you're not perfect. Every heist we see in this movie, everything is botched in one way or another, not because of him, but like Wayne Grow kills the guards in the beginning they have to abort that second thing the when they're trying to buy, you know, sell the bear bonds back, that gets a little messed up because they're trying to kill him. Then obviously the bank robbery is marked in some way. So while these are very expert good criminals who know their way around automatic weapons, who know their way how to handle crowd control, they are not perfect criminals, maybe because they break their own codes. And it's also really great to be able to watch the girl enter into his life. Yes, because when she does, I mean, who knows? What's so great is you get to wonder about his life. And has there ever been a woman that has come into his life that's taken him away? I'm sure there probably was. And then he vowed, like, this was my imagination, but that's how great that DeNiro's performance is, because it allows you to kind of think about it like this is like he probably had one experience that probably got too close and he goes, No, this is why maybe it botched a job. Yeah, maybe it's the reason he went to prison. Maybe the reason why the person yeah. But now that this one comes in the way that we see that in like he, he really, he goes all in with her. And this is what you're latching on to. It's probably often regarded as the biggest criticism of the movie that it happened so quickly. And I'm like, I hear that. But a dude who's been in prison for a long time and maybe, maybe to your point, has never really experienced love or been accepted by anyone, let alone like, you know, a woman who seems to understand him even though he's of course, lying because he's not, you know, book about metals. He's not a metal salesman. But yes, he's opening his heart up in a way that I think is new for him almost. And he's kind of like shit and even that compulsion to be like, No, come here with me. Like, they haven't known each other that long, but like just leave the country with me. I do believe him. I mean, Neil McCauley in that I believe that he's like, I'm out, I'm setting this up to get out. So like, I never knew this would be a possibility that I would want a woman to come with me. But come on, what do you say? Let's take a shot. Let's take a. Jump. And there's a filmmaking device that's used in the edit that I think disproves the criticism of that. It happens too fast because I picked up on it and I thought it was excellent is because, you know, Michael Mann is very, very specific about when he chooses to cut and there's a phone call scene that towards the beginning of this like opening relationship that they're forming together where they're on the phone with each other and they're all these really quick cuts between the two of them. And to me, that felt like this is the excitement, right, of this relationship. Like whatever they're going to say next is like, I have to see. I have to know, like, is. That the call when they're all at dinner and he's I think he's looking around and everyone else and it's true. Has a lady who is happily married, you know. Ashley Judd and Val Kilmer are a little rocky, but they're together. Trejo's got his lady, so I think he's looking around like, damn, maybe. Maybe I am. This is. Maybe I am missing something. Maybe this coat of mine has been too rigid, you know? And what's so great is that when he's seeing all of that, like, the way that we're watching him, we don't see in the he's not going to let the public in that moment. Need him, bring him. Yeah. So he is smiling. Yeah. Making joke, making jokes. But and I think we as the audience gather, I wonder if he's missing. Right? You know, he doesn't seem like it right here, but then he goes right to the phone and then does it. And I was like, Oh, man, it's so good. And so I really love that because I just took notice of how fast these cuts were. And I was like, Well, these are not just because we're just trying to cut. No, like this is purposeful. This is intentional. This is all designed to make you feel something. And I think by way of that, that is just a filmmaking technique to show that this relationship is moving fast. And for him, maybe for her. Maybe. But I mean, she there's enough of her backstory and there's, you know, she's kind of like a duck out of water, like she's from Appalachia and she's like in this bookstore and trying to do this freelance graphic design stuff, like, I don't know, you know, she says she's lonely and yeah, I'm alone, but I'm not lonely. I think they're too lonely. L.A. is a town filled with lonely people out in the open. And, you know, if two lonely people find each other and there's this weird, grinning, weird, but, like definite connection, I don't know. You can kind of jump on it. I believe it. I believe it, too. And it says a lot about her, too. To stay with it the way that she does is like, how far will loneliness take you? Like, we, like, clearly there's writing on the wall. These things. Shit has hit the fan in a weird way that she became aware of. And yet, I mean, he kind of forces her a little bit to stay, but she ultimately still stays. Yeah. He's not like, you have to come with me or else. Yeah, there is. There are choices presented. But yeah. What does that say about her that she doesn't decide to be like, yeah, I'm just going to go back to my place, dude. Like, I'm telling, you know, it's a little too hot for me. Too much heat around the corner. When I said Michael Mann had been thinking about this for decades, I was not lying because he wrote this. He wrote a draft of this. The first draft in like 1979 based on real people. I think most of them were based in Chicago. There's something like, let me get this right. I'm sorry if I get this wrong. The real Neil McCauley, the cop who you know, Pacino's based on, who ended up taking him down. That cop, his partner in real life was Dennis Farina, the actor, you know, who I've always loved. But he started as a cop first before he became an actor, and he was huge in Michael Mann's films, starting back at Thief. I Love, Love, Love Dennis Farina. So I just think that's a cool bit of trivia. And then so he has all these stories and he's hearing from cops and criminals, and he turns this into a TV movie called L.A. Takedown. There's actually some of the same cast. They don't play the same roles, but it's not really that good. He needed more money. I think that came out like 1989. I've seen it. It's the genesis for Heat is in there. But you know, it has a TV movie budget. Yeah. And then he still, you know, he's still making movies. He makes Mohicans, but he is so like into this material that he gets the money to make this huge epic. In 1995 calls it heat. And this is really like the definitive text of this story, something that he kept going back to, going back to trying to make material of it. I mean, obviously, he this is an obsessive director willing to do pretty much anything to get his visit, get his vision on the screen, no matter how many years it takes. But just by way of saying I really respect that, you know, I really respect that drive and not letting it go. I know that some actors and some people, you know, Michael Mann's a very specific director, is a very specific person. He requires a lot of his cast and crew. But when we are just sitting here watching the films like it really pays off. Like, I understand to make them must be tremendously difficult, but wow, wow, wow. Do not all of them I'm not a fan of I'm not a diehard fan of every single Michael Mann movie, but most of them and certainly this one. Oh, this is I think this is I mean, this is just a it's one of those no perfect movies. Yeah. Yeah. And it's you want to do top five Michael Mann now. Well, get out of the way wherever you want. Yeah. Well, you know, I'm trying to do it. Trying to mix things up, do things a little out of order. Okay. I just want listeners to, like, understand our relationship with Michael Mann. Some die hard man heads here might be a little mad at me because there are a few omissions. But just to like kind of, you know, as we're getting into heat more and everything, I wanted to talk about the place that heat stands with us. Among his filmography, number five for him. I put collateral right there. I love that movie. I think everyone in it is great. The Tom Cruise is really on a different register and I love him. Number four, Mann's most mature film, The Insider. Again, I think he had some clout from Heat. I think, you know, Heat such this big action epic. And then he's like, All right, I'll go make like the dramatic dead serious movie, the Oscar movie, and I'll get some nominations just to prove to all you assholes that I can do that. So he does it and that's great. Number three, probably his most controversial and maybe polarizing movie, Miami Vice. I absolutely love Miami Vice. I know you do. Oh, God, I love it so much. Number two, I'm a little mad at someone involved in this movie right now, but it's Ali, because I think that movie I love Muhammad Ali in real life, the actor playing him does give a very good performance in the movie. He's that's just what it is. You know, we live in a post-black world. And, you know, I don't know. It'll be I wonder when I'll rewatch that movie. But I've always loved Ali's and you know, number one is obviously Black Hat, the best Michael Mann movie that he's ever done. There's nothing better. Chris Hemsworth steals the show and I've missed anything. No. Number one is heat. And I guess, my Jesus, I got you there. Oh, but. Oh, that was so good. But the biggest. Omission, I think, from mine is. Nick. He's still going is Mohicans, which I don't want to take anything away from Mohicans or Manhunter or Thief. I love Michael Mann. I love his films, Public Enemies All Good. But if I'm really crunching it and laying in those top five, that's how I'd rank him. But yes, he is, I think, the best Michael Mann film. That's so great because our top five are vastly different. So to me. So I'm going to start with number five Manhunter. And I mean, there's just something that's I mean, I would love there's like a version of like of of Silence of the Lambs or Not Sounds, Lands, Red Dragon and Manhunter that I would love to Frankenstein. And maybe I think Manhunter or Red Dragon. Yeah, there are some good aspects of it. There's some really cool, horrible director that's. Oh yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean there's so fact. I mean. Manhunter is, I mean, you've got to you know, you've got to remember like Brian Cox originated Hannibal Lecter and wow, does he do something different with it, but also completely creepy. He's not so much like Anthony Hopkins. Hannibal Lecter, I love him. But that's kind of a caricature of that is and Brian Cox is doing like a dead serious character. Like, let me out of the cell, I'll bite your fucking neck off. Just watch, you know, just, like, really very dangerous, you know? And the style of Manhunter is so stylish. Oh, cool. And then keep going with the eighties thief comes for me in number four. So good. And then film. And then I think I go Mohicans. Guy. And then The Insider. Yeah. And then he. There we go. Okay, so we land and I like all those movie sets. Yeah, but there's no, there's not really. I mean the keep isn't like that great of a movie, but it's not terrible. But there's no like, oh, my God, what the hell was he thinking there? Movie. There are some are hit or miss like no. I think Heat in Insider and Mohicans are kind of universally loved. So you had a good nineties, but otherwise, like there's something there are faults that people tend to bring up with the other ones, but I don't know, I just enjoyed my time with them. I also think this is not a director with the exception of maybe the insider who's asking you like you need to take every movie I make as dead serious art. I think part of him, he is the genre director in some capacity and he likes just like doing cool shit and doing gunshots and making shit blow up and stuff. I think there that is an aspect to him. So he's very serious and he takes his movie seriously. But I don't know, I never he's just not like he's not Bergman or something. He's not like, you have to sit here and assess everything so, so deliberately. I don't know. I've never taken him. I've never put him on that mantle of like, I'm going to be studying these forever and ever. I just like to watch them because I think they're awesome. Well, that makes sense, you know. Yes. And he doesn't strike me as that when you when he talks about his movies as well. Right. Right. He does seem like he is someone who is very specific like that. I think that's what really shines with all of his movies is like you are taken care of in a michael Mann movie. Like he he absolutely will be like everything that you're seeing is intentional. Everything that you see has been thought out over and over and over. And now we're executing it to the best that we could possibly have gotten it. I think that's what it really comes through with his movies. But I want to talk a little bit before we move on about the Pacino De Niro diner scene. Well, that was actually next on my little outline here. Okay. Real quick, though, just to talk, just real quick to piggyback off of what you're saying. Yeah, a really good example of that is the first time De Niro and Amy Brenneman, ADR meeting like at her house. And you cut to them overlooking L.A. to cut to this profile shots. And it's very clearly green screen that they like did green screen on their profile. And Mann says like there is it's great to look out over the city but on film for those profile shots, it wasn't coming up. And it was more important to me that you see those sea of lights out there than not. So that's why they did it. Green screen. A lot of people would be like, Oh, that kind of scene looks out of place like it's 1995 green screen. I get it. But that was done for a reason, to your point. Like it was thought about, it was considered, it was debated, and then he did it and he stuck with it. Well, and what I like about it too is like it does. You definitely notice that. Yeah, but it also to me kind of feels like a dream. And for these characters, that's kind of I mean, we're talking like, you know, like love at first sight. Yeah. And like that percolating feeling. Yes. I feel like that look of that is sort of like accentuating that idea. So the diner scene. Boy. I got a little beef with the diner scene only because. If you fucking say they're not on screen at the same time. No, not at all. Not at all. No, no. The scene itself is a fantasy. Yeah, but no, this is a this is coming from the acting world. Okay? That scene is one of the scenes that is studied so much, and I think it's rightfully so. But my issue with it is that every time that this scene comes up in an acting class and people talk about it, they don't talk about the movie beforehand. They just talk about this scene as it is. So if you jump in on that scene without really having had like the previous, what, hour and something. Like hour and a half, it's almost at the exact midpoint of. Yeah, yeah. And what we learn about these two guys when they meet for this, it is, it's so loaded. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And you feel the weight. That's one thing that I love about this movie is that the weight that's being put on these two characters. But really every person in the movie, the more weight keeps piling and piling and piling and piling. And that's what enhances the plot. The plot moves forward so organically, but it's all due to the extra bit of pressure, extra bit of time, extra bit of weight, extra bit of everything that's going on to all these characters. So all of that being said, I just encourage anyone who is really studying that scene to not just study the scene. So you don't have to be with the scene. You have a beef with some fucking acting class you took and you saw no assholes acting class. It's been kind of like in my experience, whenever that scene comes up, everyone talks about that scene and I'm like, Yeah, sure, talk about that scene. But like, can we talk about what led up to make that scene happen? Because that's why the scene is so good. Well, this. Is like that. My probably biggest word I use on the podcast is context. Like that's what you have to bring into everything. So yeah, I mean, if you're just taking that huge scene without studying the outsides of it in the prior history, it definitely is not going to have that much weight in any context, acting class, anywhere, ever. So what's really cool about that scene is obviously this has been talked about and studied so much, but he had, you know, those cameras set up and he was rolling three cameras at once. And he knew that he is not going to be able to use multiple coverage of different takes. So you're not like when we're on that shot from take five, then we go back to Bob, that shot from Take eight. They were so in-tune with each other's movements, speech patterns that man knew he could only use footage from one take from the same take, that is. And that's something I remember hearing that his commentary because Michael Mann is just one of the best great directors, commentators. Oh, my God, he does such. You will learn so much from watching one of his movies while he talks during it, including this one. And that was a really good lesson for me. And I've shot so many big scenes that way, so many of the argument scenes I've done, knowing that like that you can't it's kind of it can be a betrayal of the actors because if they're really in tune with each other, you don't want to mix and match takes, at least in my opinion. Not for every scene, but an argument like this. A long conversation. Yeah, and it really works. I don't. Michael Mann can remember if it was like take eight or take 12. I remember hearing Take 12, I believe, but that's whatever one they went with, that's what they went with. And it's just, Oh my God, it's so cool. And then, yeah, like ten, 15 years later, this stupid rumor comes out that they didn't shoot it at the same time. They weren't on set at the same day. That's just like, Oh, bullshit gossip. It's so fucking stupid. I hate going to. I hate when, like, something inane and ridiculous that has nothing to do with anything that just like someone cooked up on Reddit, like, gets traction and that becomes a thing people talk about, about the movie. It's like, you know, shut up. Just go watch the movie. What are you talking about? And one other thing that I love about that scene is the intro basically to it is that she knows sort of like in a helicopter. He uses so many LAPD resources, just like just to get her out. I thought you had you. Have so much surveillance on him and all of his crew. Can't you just, like, pick him up tomorrow? Like, okay, it has to be now. Okay, that's. That's you, Hannah. Hannah's on a way, way, way different register than most. Everyone else will talk about that, but yeah. Like helicopter and then. All right have a have a car, meet me at like this wrap and get the wrap that you know he goes and chases him down like that's a gross use of LAPD resources. But it's also Michael Mann being like, Hey, I got a fucking. Helicopter, and that's exactly what it. Is. And I put Al up there at it and you get. The fucking awesome movie song that's playing. Like. So it's such that like you feel like he's going to do something. You don't know what he's. Going to do going so fast so. And so fast. He's hot rodding completely. And he's also come this is what I love about the movie so much is like where he's come from is a scene with his wife. Yeah that where you going? Yeah. Like everything that is going on with these characters personal lives is what drives the next moment. Certainly for Hannah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and so whatever action they're going to take. So basically, he just got really full of himself and was like, you know what? Fuck it, I'm fine in him right now. Yeah. And I don't care where he is. Put me in a helicopter. Get that car ready for me. I'm fine in this asshole. And then he pulls up to him and this goes, Got a cup of coffee. I got to get off. And, you know, I mean, and it it works. Yeah, it works. But I think that's really the like the the the biggest compliment that I have about this movie is that the way that we get to know the personal lives of these characters is so well folded into the plot that it never once feels like the movie is trying to do something else, right? Like it's it always organically makes so much sense and it feels like how natural the next movement would be. And it surprises you. Yeah, you're sort of like, Wow, okay. They're really like going through like what she's saying is his wife is right. Yep. What's he going to do about it? And he carries it into the next scene. Yeah, it's. It's perfect. It's. That's what kind of breaks the scene open is that he's like, My life's a disaster, you know? Yeah. He kind of reveals. And Neil De Niro's, Neil's like, Oh, I think this dude's being truthful. Like, Okay, now we're going here with it. It's not like surface level anymore, like barbecues and ball games and stuff. We're talking to like get down and talking about dreams and fears and, you know, all that shit and that that kind of line of omission of, you know, disaster zone. I'm her second marriage, my third, you know, just all this. Oh, God, it's so, so good. And that's really the scene where you're like, two are not that different. Like, they're really not that different. There's a, there's a really important thing that happens in that, that when a career criminal says definitively, I am never going back, yeah, like I'm not doing it. So whatever the hell he went through in there and that's where he met like his crew, you know, it's where he met Tom Sizemore and Val Kilmer and his whole like gangster crew. But the fact that he's made up his mind to never go back, come death or whatever is really, really significant. Yeah. PACINO Just to everything to tell you, like where his code is at. And that's obviously something that greatly informs the ending. But I mean, we could talk, we do a whole podcast on that scene, literally. It's just it's so good. It takes just as long as it needs to. Oh, my God. It's perfect. Yeah. Maybe we'll never see each other again, but it's a good time to get into brother. You are going down. I thought we get to some fun scenes here, but in a lot of these scenes we're going to try to go in order. We have Vincent Hanna acting completely fucking nuts for Aris, for reasons that in the film are never explained and no one else around him is. None of the other actors even knew this was going to happen. How do you feel? Do you know this revelation? Hit it. Okay, so the movie, in early drafts of the script, they took it all out. I don't know if they were ever going to have scenes for it. They took all this out, but basically in like a 20 year anniversary Q&A, Pacino and Michael Mann finally admit that they conceived Vincent Hanna as someone basically doing key bumps to keep going, keep them together, to keep going. That's what and Michael Mann was like. We kind of agreed that he was doing like a lot like, you know, so when in the morning before they go to like that junkyard, you know. Give me your got. Yeah he is clearly carrying that like you you talk a lot about what you're bringing in to achieve that. Dude, I don't know. He's with Mykelti Williamson, so maybe he didn't, like, pump it up in the car, but that that when he was alone that morning, he was pumping them up and take it. And that's what he's taking into that scene. So when I heard that, I went, Wow, that makes so much sense. I'm glad it's not in the movie. Yes, we get a little too bad. Lieutenant Harvey Keitel, which is its own thing, a great movie, but that becomes its own thing. But just to know that it's like that really does make sense, that that's why he's able to go to, you know, BJ's on Alvarado, talk to Tony, look at 2 a.m. and he's going here. He's going here because, you know, presumably like right before a scene starts with Vincent. Hanna, I think it's kind of safe to assume that he had a little baggie. And like before he pulled up to that strip mall, he did a little bump, he did a few bumps and goes in there, you know, and get killed walking the dog. That's why you're bringing that like crazy energy into a scene. So just how do you feel about that? I think it's great. And I think it's a great thing for an actor and a director to talk about because it's one of those things where the audience is never going to know that they don't need to. But if it helps inform the character, right, help informs the the progression of the scene and it just deepens and levels Pacino's attachment to what he's doing. Yeah. Then you're a director, an actor who are on the same page. Like, you know where we're going together, and it's one of those sometimes just tiny little details that you don't. I remember Quentin Tarantino and Leonardo DiCaprio talked about from Once Upon a Time in Hollywood that Rick Dalton probably suffers from some type of, like, bipolar. Yeah, yeah. Before in 1969, those were not buzzwords people to know that was. Yeah. And it's never brought up in the movie. Right. But when you know that that's actually something that they together put into the into the expression of the character's behavior, you can actually see moments where it reaches those levels. So you still have to read that fucking book because there are so many more of that details. Oh, my God. Oh, my. It is a great novelization. You have to read it. It's so. Good. It's coming. It's coming. And speaking of which, sorry, we're get we're on tangent city now Michael Mann and that he's writing like a sequel prequel to heat novel it's coming out in August half of it is apparently a prequel and half of it is a sequel. So that I had a note here to mention that. But as we're talking about movie novelizations, I can't fucking wait for that. I don't know if he'll get the money to make it, but I'll be reading that like day one. Oh, yeah, that's going to be amazing. Wait. But yes, yes. Like deciding something beforehand and bringing that in is a great way to inform character. It's a great way to keep the audience guessing, like, where the hell is this guy? Like, what page is he on? Michael Mann does a funny story that Michael Mann, he is not the credited cinematographer on his movies. He operates his own camera. So he is more often than not the person literally holding the camera when they shoot. And he was shooting that scene that give me all you got scene. And he couldn't keep the camera still because he would just start hysterically laughing. He had no idea I was going to go there in every instance, you know. Great. Yes. He had no idea that was. Going to happen. My favorite Pacino moment. Oh, my God. I'm about to ask Caesar. When I see him as it does something to. Me ferocious. I remember seeing an interview talking about how they agreed that this character of Hanna needed to be a little over the top and not too much. They toe the line. Yeah. And Pacino. Don't ask him to go up too big because it won't be a problem. But there were times where Michael Mann would be like, all right, maybe a little bit lower, but that's where he lives. Right? And so you're just sort of toeing that line in tracking how far it goes. And that's the pleasure of a good collaboration, is when you both know what you're doing and a director can be like, oh, a little bit too much, a little bit more. But you're you're you're right there. That's that's exactly right. And with De Niro's probably the opposite, like, okay, give me a little more, Bob. Like, maybe not that under here. Like, not that restrained. Give me, you know, give me 20. You come up a little bit. Yeah. Yes. You two temper them would be difficult. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm sure they, they're fucking pros like they're all after the same objective is let's get it right. So yes yes I love that. And I think that's such a great thing to bring up, too, because it's it's a little clue into something that's not expressed in the movie. But when you know it, you can totally see it. Yes. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Let's get into some of these scenes. Oh, my God, I love them. One of the crazy things about heat is that one of the best action sequences of all time begins in nine of this movie. It's fucking incredible. The armored car robbery, I mean, even down to the tiniest detail, like those ribbons falling at the car dealership. It's so precise, so brilliant. And in any other movie, this would be the best scene of the movie like any other. If they say this to the end, just with that glass, all the, you know, car windshields blown out, which they actually did. There's nothing digital about that. You're like watching this. I mean, what a way to start a movie. But unfortunately, I think we're we're too young. I can assume you didn't see this in theaters. I know. I didn't see it in. Theaters, apparently. Just the sound of like their truck hitting the armored car and going over. And then when they do those explosive charges, it was like nuts and set this crazy tone for the movie that I mean, that's one of my favorite scenes in the movie. And it, you know, again, when I'm talking about like studying it and listening to these details, when you pay attention to the first time we meet Ashley Judd and she's counting the money that Kilmer, her husband, has made from this robbery, she's like only eight grand. It's like he's like, yeah, I did clear the bookies. And that's a detail of like, you did all that and killed three guards on the street or were involved in the killing of three guards for $8,000, all of that fuck, man, you're in bad shape, you know. Even DeNiro can't believe it. He's like, You don't have anything saved everything. We were taken down, you know, not Superman, Columbia, but just a great detail of like degenerate gambler can't keep a shit straight, but armored car robbery, the military precision in which they're handling that is something I've always really appreciated. They do act like a small military unit as opposed to, you know, guys who men in the yard at Folsom Prison. It's like it just the training, the level of preparation that you bring in. This one asshole, Wayne Groh, they hadn't worked with before. Oh, boy. And he's like kind of the driving force of all the conflict in the movie is he's the driving force in the movie. He is. I mean, without him, he's the one who kicks up all the shit and gets everything going bad. And, you know, he alludes them in the second diner scene and they don't get to kill him. And then it's it's basically him and De Niro, like, fucking with each other throughout the whole film, you know. And in the end, De Niro, Neil McCauley has to make a very big decision. Does he go hunt winger down or does he take his escape like he has? And he does not take his own advice. He doesn't bail when he spots the heat around the corner, he goes in straight for the heat. But yeah, wink, wink. By the way, shout out to Jesse James for that. That's his name, right? Kevin Gage. Briefly. Vancouver. Yeah. Kevin Garnett as Jesse James. Who the fuck is Jesse James? Jesse James. Jesse James. Like Sandra Bullock's ex-husband. Who's Jesse James? Is. Is that who it is? Who's Jesse James? Jesse James? I don't. You didn't have to explain it. You're just saying the name. He was the guy. He was the guy in blue. Who? Who? The guy at the end when they're doing like the when he when they're making the, like the final score that ends up taking George Young away. Now, I don't know, a Kevin Gage is the actor's name. He plays Wayne girl he unfortunately serves some time after heat. And I guess he gave him a lot of clout. Like everyone just knew. His name is Wayne Girl. He went and he was like, grown wheat or something. I don't know. He didn't like fucking, you know, rob an armored car, but he went in for a couple of years. Who the hell is Jesse James? I guess. I guess. And, well, you're way off. All right. Well, anyways, shout out to him. Yes, shout out to Kevin Gage. Kevin Gage kind of steals the movie with his, you know, neo-Nazi fucking nihilistic brutality, his iceman's. Yeah, yeah, they're dead. That one scene with. The neighbors coming to you. With the prostitute. I cut, you know, in the perfect cut to him grabbing her to the bottle cap. Oh, yes, perfect cut. That is why I'm here. Yeah. Like it's so like you talked about, like, a character that doesn't really he doesn't have, like, a lot of dialog. He doesn't really have a lot of screentime. But everything that happens with this movie is because of this guy. And every time he's on the screen, it feels impactful. He's menacing, he's scary. He's off kilter. That's a very, very cool performance to watch because it's it's all done then for you. Yeah. And like this. The second thing I wanted to talk about was that diner scene when they're all, you know, meeting up and everybody wants a pie. And he said. Yeah, and. And, you know, trail's like, I got to go to the bathroom and he gets up. But then Tom Sizemore like sits at the counter too, you know, and then does the way it's played. It's like they've rehearsed this, they've done this, they've done it. And then one of my favorite shots in the whole movie is when DeNiro slams his head and Tom Sizemore does that crazy. Like. Leo stare the guy down, which is like he learned that on the yard and everything in those eyes is what? What the fuck are you going to do about this? Come over this table and watch what happens. I'll kill you with my bare hands. And that's all communicated in a shot that lasts. I don't know. Two and a half seconds. Arguably one of my favorite shots or definitely acting moments of the movie is like a really extreme head tilt to be like, What's up? What is one of those things where like, you know, prison? And the reality is in the way that you have to live your life there. And when you bring that into the real world, again, this is what you're met with because no one's going to do anything about that, right? In prison, maybe. But in the real world, like you can get that away with it if you carry yourself in the one eye. Correct. But the way that you would carry yourself in that and that's why no one makes a move. No. That guy, he stares down, goes back to his food. Yeah. Because no one wants to deal with it. No, it's sort of like. No, this is how we're going to handle this. Yes, yes. Oh, my God. It's yeah, it's a greatly there's a very effective scene. All right. I have something that I was watching this movie for, this episode. I watch it twice because I watch it again with his commentary. And then just straight through, I noticed something that I've never heard anyone talk about related to this movie, and I had to go back and rewind to make sure I was right. Let me just sell something to you. Talking about timelines here in the movie, the timing of the first 30 minutes of this film are a little weird. I want to know if you've ever noticed this. So De Niro tells Voight at that parking garage that he will meet Kelso. That's Tom Noonan, the guy who's going to sell him the bank robbery information. And he tells him, set the meeting up for tomorrow at 9 a.m.. And De Niro and Voyeur talking about this. It's already the sun is set over L.A. They're in a parking garage. So he says till 9 a.m. tomorrow. Then after that, so much shit in this movie happens. Pacino finds the armored car bodies they try to kill Wayne grow at that diner. De Niro goes home to the beach to stare out the window. Kilmer and Ashley Judd fight Pacino and his wife fight. De Niro goes to the bookstore, meets Eddie at the coffee shop, goes back to Eddie's house, sleeps with her, and then wakes up the next day. Have you ever tracked that? All of that is happening in the same day? Because the next day, the first scene with De Niro is him meeting Kelso. Tom Yeah. So I never put together. That all of that. Shit is happening in one night because he's talking to Voight at night. The sun is set, so like all this shit is going on, he goes back, so he's in like downtown meeting with Voight, and then he goes and does this thing. He goes to the beach that I guess he just stares out the window at the beach and he's like, I'll go to the fucking bookstore. Baz Well, like it's I always thought that beach when he goes home, was like, that was the end of a night, but it's not. This is all the same night. It's like, you know, it's just it's a movie timeline thing. But I really I never notice that I've seen this movie dozens upon dozens of times. And I never realized that all that was happening. And one night I thought it was funny, that's all. It's a lot of shit. Like, I think subconsciously I realized that because like one thing that I felt about this movie is like the way that the time works. Like, I always did notice where it felt like the next day, okay? Like they don't necessarily sometimes they do like this where they track it like virtually the days, but you do feel like time is moving day by day. Yes. Whatever we're seeing is all happening at the time that we're seeing it. Right. It's moving into the next. But to have it tracks so specifically like that. Just in the first 30 minutes. Yeah, it's there's it gets a little looser with it. Yes. It's like when there is more investigating to be. Yeah, it does get looser but the only way I clued into this, the only way is that he says set the meeting up for tomorrow at 9 a.m. and I'm like, Well, wait a minute, we that meeting's not going to happen for like a while because all this other in the movie, because all this other shit has to happen. What the hell? It's all in one night. I never realized that. You know, it's just. It's just funny, that's all. But there's a very strict timeline set up there, but then it does loosen up. But it's that's why I don't know, I always want to be careful in movies. It's a tough thing to talk about, like tomorrow's or stuff because. Yeah. You know you film movies out of order so it if they if they had not said 9 a.m. tomorrow if you would have been like set the meeting up that loose ends up the timeline and maybe it's a little more believable that like that's a few days and then the Kelso meetings like, you know, three days from now, not tomorrow, just calling it out, you know, not, not for the movie at all. I'm just. I just had never noticed it before, that's all. Well, I tracked the time from when Pacino's like everything he got. Yeah, because he's, like, you meet, it's at 2 a.m., and it makes a big deal of. It's like, Whoa, you want me to meet you there? Then it. Better be. Worth it. So whatever happens throughout the rest of that day, and then you get to 2 a.m. and Pacino is clearly keyed up a boy. So and has that whole entire conversation with tone log south tone. But I think what also it does too is like it grounds you in the idea of this is the life that these guys live time and where you have to be and when does not matter doesn't you need to do whatever you need to do to get there. So sleep happens and when it happens, yeah, if it happens. And I think that's just another thing about the way that these guys live that just like it, it captivates you and brings you in more to that world, right? So the weight of what these guys do matters even more just based on thinking about when did they sleep? Exactly when do they sleep? We never see anyone like resting, nothing like that. So yeah, it's a great point there. I mean, Neil could definitely be a guy who's just like grabbing an hour here, doing an hour here. I don't know. The only time we see someone sleeping is Kilmer waking up on his floor. Yeah, 35, which is the next morning, you know, because DeNiro comes back from sleeping with Eddie. So what happened when you got to get some furniture? And I love also too, just really quick side course about this. The first time we meet Pacino you know. He's making it makes making love. Making that love yeah and but that's like the only time that we ever see him in a place of I mean, I guess for lack of a better term, but real relaxed. Yet relaxed or. At least doing something other. Than his job. Yeah. Yeah. And that's and I mean, it kind of speaks to a very, I suppose like stereotypical masculine thing where it's like, well, if I'm not doing this, I'm doing this. Right, right. That's how she. Feels that she's like she. Feels she even says like we, you know, we we just fuck and I trying to look for this, you know, connection and then you just get up and leave. You withdraw again. That's not a marriage, you know? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I just love that. When you look back at the movie, that's how we meet him, right? Right. That's just a great touch. It is. It really is. Next thing that I want to talk about, I have always the first time I watch this movie, I remember this like as a kid sitting at home and I was impressed by the armored car robbery. Very well. This is crazy. But I was watching this movie going, this is going to be one of my favorite films. I know it in the scene where the De Niro's crew sets up. Okay. Yeah, we're going to go here. There's there's directions over here, you know, and Pacino and the cops are all spying on him. And Pacino and the cops come back looking at what are they looking at? And when that clicks for Pacino, is this guy something or is this something? And then, you know, the staring at us, the police department, and we cut to De Niro, weigh the weight up there with that crazy lens. Okay. God, yeah. I that I had never. Seen something that it's kind of a simple thing like, yeah, you're pretending to be hunted and then the hunter becomes the hunted or vice versa. And I just remember being so impressed that and that little smile De Niro gives you that smile in the movie. And he he's kind of like impressed with Hanna and Hanna's impressed with McCauley. And I love that scene so, so much. The music, like, kicks up so good. I love that. What are they staring at? And he just, you know, we get that under undershot. Al Pacino is like. This guy and he's just so impressed. He's like, Fuck, we got a good crew here. And leading up to that like they they because there's DeNiro in his is squad have already decided that they're going to go forward with this robbery. Yeah. When they know that the heat's on them like they have a whole discussion like it's. Oh the fucking LAPD where this he comes. Yep, yep. Yeah. And so when they all decide they're going to do it and they meet up like I remember being kind of confused when they're talking about the exit strategies. Right? And I'm like, well, you know, you're being watched. Why are they doing why are you doing this? And then it's all done just to get the payoff. Yeah. Of that shot right where De Niro's looking through the lens and you're like, why you fucking guys went out of your way to just lure these guys in? Yeah, for no other reason. Just to be able to, like, study him. He wants to know who's hunting him. And, you know, he sends his stuff to Voight. And that's when we get the whole breakdown of, you know, three marriages and. Oh, my God, it's just so good. So good, fucking good. There's like. If you're watching this movie, even if, like, action isn't your thing, I'm really hard pressed to find anyone who wouldn't be impressed by that. Like, who's not going to sit back and be like, Oh, fuck, that was pretty cool. Well, that's good. And again, every so if you're not into the action, you're going to get wrapped up in these personal lives. And then when it all of a sudden just so beautifully matches to what's plot Y is being given to you like this, you're just blown away. You're like, Well, now you just have to come home after this day, right? Well, let's see. What's she going to say now? Like you're so in it. Oh, God, it's so good. So we're I think we're they're bank robbery. We do it. What you have to say now, let's just blow past it. Actually, I don't think. We need to talk. About it. All right. So the next scene is Jeremy Piven with his really interesting hairline. No kidding. Treating Val Kilmer bank robbery. I think the number one thing I always like to mention above is to everyone, and this is very widely talked about, but the amount of preparation that went into this, how good DeNiro and Kilmer got with their guns. Yeah, it's been like shown in military training courses of how quickly Kilmer could reload, but the sound to bring it all back to the Oscars, the sound of this, like they got down there and they shot it. They they had to shoot this over several weekends because, you know, L.A. wouldn't let them shut down downtown L.A. during the weekday. So they get out there and they do it several weekends in a row and shot. It's all in the can. And Michael Mann watches the first cut of it and he's like, What is up with the sound here? And the sound mixers were like, Well, we can't, we couldn't. We definitely couldn't use the sound that you recorded on the day because it was like this horrendous, like echo of the buildings. So we put in, you know, our movie Gunshots. And Mann's like, No, take the sound from the day. Make it horrible at like heighten that yeah and that echo that is why no gunshot in the history of movies has ever sounded so good. And we have seen I've seen hundreds of movies that have shootouts in downtown settings where it would, you know, ricochet off everything like that. And it would sound like if one gun if one bullet is fired, it would sound like five, because that echoes doing it. And you'd be able you and I know downtown well you would be able to hear that on and, you know, Figaro and Fifth all throughout downtown. It would just sound like this popping. It'd be like, what the hell? So the fact that he made the decision to go in and use that which like kind of violates the codes of sound and sound mixing because you're not creating a new sound. Maybe that's why it didn't get the Oscar nominations. I don't know. But that is that's honestly like the way they're handling themselves, the criminals. I mean, like go, go, just the staging of it all, you know, Kilmer's walking smiling that he it within a split second starts firing. That's the slow motion shot of the Niro in the car. And he starts firing out the window. Oh, great. All great, all perfect. The sound is what gets me every fucking time. I agree. And I think this is the most well-done action scene of all time. Yeah, me too. Because I had a note, like, is this the best bank robbery of all time? It's not even a fair like question because no one in 1995, no one had seen anything like this because nothing like this had existed. And I can tell you, as a lifelong movie lover, there's no shootout matches this. There is not because they're actually like now some of it we get good shootout, some of it's digital and like, you know, there's digital enhancements brought in. I mean, Michael Mann, like every single bullet that hits a cop car, they had already done that on the range and then they, like, put squibs in those specific holes to blow them up. It's it's incredible. And I would rank where any action scene involving guns this would be my favorite. I mean there are some action scenes. It's just like, you know, who get blown up, like in speed or something. But this is right up there with this is as good as action filmmaking gets. And I don't consider this an action film. I consider it like an epic crime thriller. And this is just an action sequence and let's just break it down like the basics. Like when you watch an action scene, you kind of have to ask yourself sometimes you see a lot of really cool stuff, like there's a really cool fire, really cool explosion of exactly what you're saying. But are you actually tracking logistically what is happening? Yeah, and you are, you know where you are. Yeah, yeah. And where the camera's at and where everyone else is in relationship to the environment and what's happening in like I think Saving Private Ryan does a really great job of that. Like, you know, where you're are, where you are watching on the beach. Yeah, you know these types of things. But these are things that I don't think necessarily one is an audience thinks about. It's a subconscious. Thing. I don't think people think about it consciously unless you're a hardcore movie. Yeah, everyone can track it subconsciously and that is what can make you not really like a scene or movie as much. Because you may not have known. You may not know. Like I didn't really like that as much. And I might be able to be like, well, maybe that's, let's say, like taken three or something. Everyone talks about this. Yeah, 50 cuts of him jumping over the fence, but a lot of action movies do that. Cutting contact with me have no fucking clue where you are. Like ambulance. I saw it. Saw twice. I had fun with it. It's a ridiculous L.A. movie that like, you kind of know where you are, but sometimes you're like, What the hell is going on here? Like, where am I like, Huh? This does not make logistical sense, you know, where every single principal character is during that shootout and like, you know, oh, that's why Killer has to turn around to try to shoot Pacino. Now he has to turn the other way to try to shoot the roadblock. You just know. And you also gather what their objective is. Yeah, because when shit goes south and all of a sudden we're just. Okay, so we are, you think in your head, okay, this is not gone their way. They're trapped. Right? Oh, my God. They're literally shooting their way out like you're. The information simply is dawning on you as an audience as to how they, without talking, are getting themselves out of this problem. Right. And I think that's what makes the scene so good, is that you're able to track exactly where everyone is. And because when you're watching the action scene, you're not necessarily thinking ahead, right? You're just watching this. But this allows you to be like, well, I see what they're doing if they can move up a little bit further. Right. And then they've already taken this and they're just going back and forth. You're understanding something on a certain, like, military level? Yeah. What you need to do here, this is how you do this. You're understanding it without them explaining it to you. The third or fourth time one of them runs up and is, you know, doing that, covering fire. And they, they all go, Yeah, DeNiro runs off. You're like, Oh, I get what they're doing. Okay, they didn't. They clearly talked about this beforehand like, oh, and then told Sizemore as little, you know, he's falling behind like, oh shit, I get that. You just get like they are stuck, but they know how to advance forward toward the horror, like toward the danger. And they're not afraid and they're like forward motion, find a car, forward motion like let's keep going. And not afraid of just killing like, I don't know, 30 plus members of the l.a. They going to get. Out and they know how to use those guns. So that's something michael mann talks about. He's like, you know, some people ask, like, if you're against 40 cops with pistols and maybe some of the cops like Pacino's crew, they all have really good weapons. Pacino has, like, the best weapon, the strongest weapon, like, in the scene. But those cops, like at the Roadblock, they're mostly using pistols and stuff. And Michael Mann, it's like three guys who are obsessed with, like, military structure and know how to use those automatic weapons. They will not be afraid of that level of crew. And you just go, you're not going to surrender. You're just going to keep firing because you know you have better weapons. You know, you're probably better trained than they are in terms of military tactics. And you just advance and keep going. And, you know, maybe one tries to shield itself with a girl, Jesus. Maybe one takes a bullet in the neck. But you got to keep going. Yeah. Yep. And Michael Mann talks about that. Whereas, like, cops are not trained to handle that type of. Well, that's a huge issue just in police force now. Yes. Like you need to bring in the SWAT team. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So if you're talking about just regular police, they are. That's that's a big part of why these guys get out. Yeah, exactly. Is because they're just like, fuck, this is we we're in our overheads. Yeah. And then in the commentary, man makes a really good like when Tom Sizemore picks up that kid, he's like this man, you know, Michael is a sociopath. He but he loves his children. He loves his family. He would protect his children, but he does not care about using your child to shield himself. Yeah. And you see that because he's like, he loves his wife. You hear that? He, like, loves his kids and stuff. You know, you got enough put away. I don't think you should take this job and I've always really, you know, appreciated that dynamic of it as well. There's just there's so many little interesting layers to it. The lack of hesitation is something really, really startling just, you know, the truck passes and Kilmer sees him, has a shooting. And I already mentioned. But that slow motion of De Niro just shooting out of the window. Oh, my God. But you really believe that all the training that the actors must have gone through. You really believe all that and God, how they were really dedicated and how it all just fucking paid off. Yeah, big time. I mean, we could talk. It's another scene we could talk about forever. Like I love so. Much that we're going parallel with Pacino as he runs and the walls kind of getting smaller and smaller, and he's running, and then we see what he's going to. And that's when, you know, reveals Tom Sizemore with the girl and you just readjusts his shoulder and then makes that shot and does the kill and just that whole thing and then Pacino's first thing is not, is he down? It's Let me get the girl and let me get hurt. So that's that's the difference. That's the separation. One will use one as a shield. In the other. It's, you know, honestly probably not the best shot for it added to take you probably shot the fucking girl that was obviously going to bring. That up like yeah like anything any other movie might have. There's an opportunity there to make a moment, right. A bigger than it is. A little standoff that we've seen bit like, oh my. God, do this. But Hal Pacino, he does not. Do you like that? No hesitation. Like he he he sees the problem. Yeah, it's like. All right, well, I'm going to take my shot if right. When he turns around and boom. So, so. And I really appreciate that because I think it's a very easy way out for a movie to kind of add like, well, what the reason why Sizemore does grab the kid is to add that extra level of like, don't shoot me, you might shoot a kid, but Pacino doesn't even see he just sees an obstacle in the way. Not right. The emotional component of I might shoot a kid. Yeah, but yes. And when he does get him down he does first go to the car. Yeah. Oh that's I'm I got to bring this up. Bring it up. Bring it back to the scene where they find the prostitute dead. Yes. And and Pacino shows up on the crime scene and the mother shows up and she gets through the tape and runs. And then all Pacino does is just grab or hug her. Yeah. Man. That's it's a great scene. It's really powerful because it there's nothing that can be said. Like, there's a reason why she is, like, why get her out of here. But then when she crosses, he realizes the only thing that he can do right now is just hold her, right? Like, like like there's a reason why they don't let people through here no matter who you are. But once you cross that line, well, now you're here, and there's only one I can do. And that's just to, like, hold you and console you that way. Which is. Yes, which is exactly what he does to his wife. As soon as he he sets down Natalie Portman on that bed, she on drugs? No. And he's like, you know, she needs this, this, this. And he knows that the wife is right behind him, but he's like, he's got to talk to the doctor. And he immediately turns and grabs her, you know, like hugs. And she's, you know, horrified. So he does know when to, like, give that level of care and stuff. But I still kind of I love that scene, too. I mean, we're still we're talking about scene towards cruisin, but he gets the page of like we found Neil, like we found we found it. And you can see him sitting there like, oh, god, only thing I want to do is get out of here. And she kind of senses that and she's like, go like, yeah, your stepdaughter almost died by suicide in your hotel room, but I get it, man. You got to go get your man. Yeah. Rushes down those stairs. Oh, that's perfect. And I think that's even like why like when those moments of compassion do come from in there, from the job. Yeah, yeah. Like the what? What everything that drives him is from the job. So when he is able to be there for someone, it's, it's, it links back to the job. Right. And I think that's such a great tool. But Natalie Portman, this is just a personal thing, but I really loved this little character that she has is because like the way that she views the father that is concerned, letting her down. Right. Is was that was me as a kid. Yeah. Really looking up to him. Yeah. And just being so heartbroken. Right. I mean I never tried to commit suicide because of it, thankfully, but but I understood that. And it's a very tiny component to this movie of just there is a kid that is in a an emotional place because she is constantly being let down by her father figure that she doesn't have. I just related to that and I thought it was just very well-performed by her. Yeah. For being a such like a sea plot. Yeah. Of a very plot driven movie. But you feel the weight of it. And I really appreciated that even that was treated with such care by Michael Mann. Yeah. And also to continue that care, Vincent Hanna really seems annoyed like what this guy have any idea what he. Yup, he really does. And it's very smart to never show us to dad and yeah, like a little like it could easily I mean, she could easily have slept with the ex-husband instead of Ralph and, you know, something like that. Something like gimmicky and stupid. Yeah. You know, in the X have it out, you know, something stupid like that, that's no good. But he genuinely seems like. Is he going to show or is he going to, you know, fucking bail like last time? And I love that he does care about her and maybe, you know, maybe that is why she chose his hotel to go to like all that. I think so, yeah. Yeah, and yeah. And you're right, because that's such a great choice to make for a guy that is so wrapped up in this. Right. I think it's actually maybe even easier for him to emotionally connect more to that. Probably his wife. Yeah. Because he sees the problem. Well, he can help. He can. Fix. Yes. Yeah. The wife is trying to fix up house. She wants more connection. She doesn't she might need a little fixing, too. She's not perfect. Yeah, but Natalie Portman's a kid who can't who has very tangible issues that a cop or just a grown mature man can help fix. Yeah. Yeah. And I call. That. Yeah, I. Love. Yeah, it's all there. I love the insanely fast U-turn. He does, like, pick her up in street. He's like, hi, sweetie. Like, is everything. And I just love that, like, fucking dirt. Why? She's in there. Go around and get her. Yeah. Whereas it's like an asshole that didn't show up. Yeah. Oh, God, it's so good. So let's move on to the at the, like, the core of this movie. You know, the robberies happen. Everything's everything's in motion, but he, Neal, does have this escape set up by his friends, played perfectly by Jon Voight. And he has this escape to get out. But there's this one thing that he's asked for, like, if you can find one grow, you got to let me know. So, yeah, you know, De Niro, Amy Brenneman, they're on their way to L.A.X. to get their safe passage out. And I love Voight calls him. He's like, Yeah. So I got to tell you, he's staying here, here, here. So that's like the biggest, I would argue what if question of the movie because that he clearly is breaking his own code they're like he knows damn well that he has an insurmountable amount of heat on him more than he's ever had in his life. Basically, the question I'm posing to you is, do you go back? Do you like this guy that has fucked up everything for your score? He's effectively gotten one of your friends killed. Time Tom Sizemore He's taken Chris Val Kilmer out of commission. Do you go to that hotel to enact revenge or? Do you let it go? I think Neil has to go back, but it's just like it's an interesting thing to talk about in disgust because that you see him really committing to like, should I do it? Should I do it? He makes the exit late and he's like, Yeah, we have time, we're fine, we've got time. But he has to cook up like this whole thing, like dressed up as a security guard, pretend, you know, pull the fire alarm. Like, do all this shit it takes to. Talk about his brother. And I just want to point out something that speaks to also the specificity of Michael Mann working a hotel for ten years, the way that DeNiro kind of walks in and uses the phone to find out the room number. So like casual, like you ordered a BLT. Yeah, like we got an order right here, but the room number was mixed up. Like like what's room? What room am I going to to find that out? Because and they're like, oh, that happens all the time. Like, Yeah, no, yeah. That's, that's, yeah. I can't tell you how many times that that's exactly what I did right as a server. And they also, they hotels really do have all your like wardrobe is there so he just walked into the exact right place to find the wardrobe to put himself in use one of the many phones that hotels have to communicate with the front desk, because you also had the front desk. When you get a call from that phone, you're not at all thinking that, oh, someone's not supposed to be calling from here. Right? Like if that's an outside line, but if it's coming from internally, then it just it's that's exactly how you would have done that. And that's how this movie is just keeping with its own language. Everything is exactly how that would play out. So I really appreciated that. Absolutely. You know who plays the cop and blow that you're referencing, Kevin fucking Gage. Who the hell is Jesse James? Who's Jessie J? No, no, I thought. What's your favorite movie of all? Jesse James? What's your favorite movie of all time? What's your favorite movie of all time? Let's not get into it. All right. I don't I for whatever. Reason, Kevin Case, I thought. This dude's name was Jesse James. Jesse James was a notorious robber. I know who? Jesse James. Jesse James was, but I thought that was an act. By the coward. Yeah. Yeah. By Casey Affleck. I saw the movie. Yeah. So. Right. Yeah, but I thought there was an. Actor named Jesse James. Well, there very well could be, but I. I was like, what are you talking about anyway? I don't know where I got it. I don't know where I got it. But for some reason, I thought for years that the actor's name was Jesse James. So we got really one major set piece left, and that is this big lax standoff when this is when, you know, he's coming out of the hotel. Wayne Grohl has been killed effectively, and he spots E.T. in the car. And he that's when he has to make the decision, like Pacino's running down. So what do I do? And he walks away from E.T., you know, runs away and we get this amazing foot chase that, like, what's so cool about it? And what, man, Pacino and De Niro talked about a lot was I want to because the end of this movie, the end scene was what Mann thought of first. And he built a whole film around it because he wanted to make an end that the audience is rooting for both people equally. 100%. I, I don't necessarily want both die. I kind of understand that, you know, this is in the great tragedy aspect of it. One of these guys has to die. Yeah. And the way it plays out, I'm glad how it plays out. It makes sense. But yeah, when they're running and hiding, I'm at the point where I'm like, I'm not going to be mad if like, he caps Pacino in the knee and takes his gun and then just runs off and he and De Niro gets to live. But then Pacino's has like a knee injury or something not going to be mad at that. So you are really like, you know, encouraging both of them to win equally, almost. And it's so that dichotomy is so effective with us because and then when it lands of the quote unquote good guy who's chip in cocaine, gets his man and makes the shot. You're like, okay, that is probably the way they should go. And I feel good about it. And you get that fantastic movie song and then, you know, the holding hands. I told you, I'm never going back as perfect as movie endings. Get in my opinion. But I just I love that. That you are effectively rooting for both people. Well, you're really rooting for I mean, I think naturally you're rooting for Pacino because that, I think is the protagonist. Rick Angle Sure. Yeah. But you can't help it along the way because we haven't really talked. We've talked a lot about De Niro, but we haven't really talked about that arc. And you are really following both of these guys and you really do care for De Niro. You care for you want him to break out of that shootout. You want him to find happiness. And like when that tunnel happens, when everything there's a moment, right, that we just talked about, but to really sum it up, like there's one where Jon Voight tells him everything's good, everything's good, but you're not going to take out Wingrove, right? Like that would be stupid. Yeah. He's like he's like, yeah. So I got to tell you. But like, you're home free, brother Like you're home free. Yep. Yeah. And they it's on the nose, but they go underneath that tunnel where there's a big bluish white light that lets, you know freedom. Yeah. Like, got everything you want. You got the girl, you got this, you feel that breath of fresh air. And then they come out of it and you see De Niro's face. And when he, you know, he makes a decision. Yeah, you go, no. Come on and. Do it. Yeah. And like so right then and there. That's I think De Niro's character is the achievement of what Michael Mann and everyone set out to do. Yeah. Was because if you have that gasp of being like, no, don't do that, you've won. Yeah, because you are. And in essence you're rooting for him in some capacity. You're rooting for him and you're disappointed when he makes that decision to enact revenge. And there's like what I noticed in that end scene where they're on the lam and they like, they're going through those like I mean, I don't know what you call them there. There's like a little satellite blocked tower. I don't know, whatever they are. The airport shit. Yeah. Yeah. But it's the only time that I notice. And maybe this is just me personally, the way I received it. But De Niro looks a little scared. Oh, yeah, yeah. But he's not handling the. The yeah. The way he normally. Would out of his element. He's just got a pistol. He doesn't have any of the crew with him. It's a new environment. The crazy light shows that are from the plane, from the runway. Yeah. And, and you look at him and he is frazzled and and you're like, oh, god, I think we know, like, if you've never seen the movie, think we know where this is heading. Well, that's. What I mean. Like, that's the tragedy as well. Yeah, but that's what I loved about it is like they let that in. Like, it'd be very easy for De Niro to play straight. Right to the end. Yeah, yeah. Like, I'm going to get him. I'm going to get my man, but he's got to be boxing. Fuck it. I'm. And take it. But he's scared. Yeah, he is. He is. It's a great, great touch. It is. And good call. Good call. Because not something a lot of people talk about. I'm glad we've gotten to talk about Pacino and De Niro a lot. But but I. I want to bring. We've got to bring up some people. Yeah. Some people like these are this is a stacked cast of some of the greatest character actors just ever. I want to start with the women, actually, like Amy Brenneman is Edie Ashley Judd, Charlene Sheila's a lover, Diane of Ventura, who actually played Russell Crowe's wife in The Insider. So she's a big stage actress. I wish we would have seen more of her because she's just so good, so different as the wives of these men in both different movies. Like, I honestly didn't know I saw that inside her like became fell in love with The Insider and it was like viewing five or six when I realized I was the same woman and I went, Oh, my God. Like, I didn't. Totally different haircuts, just, oh, all that stuff. You got Kim starting as Lillian. And we'll talk a little bit more about her. Natalie Portman's Lauren. They're all so good. I never hear anyone talking about Kim start in. She or really the Dennis Haysbert thing and I know I touched on it earlier we. Got to talk about Dennis. We have to because first time I saw the movie, I'm like, who is this guy? Who is this guy? I love this man. So I get him so much like he went in, you know, he went in, but now he's out on parole and, you know, he deserves his chance. And he just gets stuck with this boss from. Do you know who that boss's. Oh, yeah, that's blood court. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's he was uncredited in the role and he is. I know exactly who that dude is. Yeah, like, what are you waiting for? You know, like, 25% gets kicked back to me, just such a dick. And the whole time you're watching it, like, what is the relevance of this guy? Like, you know, he gets a little drunk and like, why? Why do you care about me? And I really believe her that she, like, loves him and wants to give him this chance. And then, boom, we're in the diner day of the robbery in the way De Niro tracks. And he's like, Didn't you notice the grill man killer takes off the shades? No, he's like the guy on the yard. And then when they see each other, when he goes and introduces himself to Hayes Burton, he's like, me, you. Hey, man. And the way he plays that didn't you know because De Niro right away, 5 minutes like yes or no right now. Yeah. And you know Hayes where he's not cooking the food he just leans back and he's like, you know, cool and fuck, yeah, let's go. Like, that is. And then that's like really the first big tragedy of the movie is that he's the first to die. Yeah, just like sitting there. I think it's the biggest. Yeah. I mean, and then seeing Kim Stanton's face when she realizes, when she's watching the news coverage and oh, my God, it's so devastating. But this guy, you really want to win, like he's got the boss from hell. Michael Mann, doing everything to like for us to get to like him and like empathize with him and get it. And then boom, first taken out. It's like it's devastating but a perfect character. It's a perfect. Character and it's a very novelistic type thing to do. We are already so deep into the plot of this movie. When we first meet Dennis. Haysbert, it's like 40 minutes in after that very complex packed day that I mentioned. Yeah. And it's a device that like, I know, like I always think of weight when you used it for this where we're already in the movie. Why are we meeting this guy? Person. Yeah. And, but what he's going to end up meaning to the plot. So it's basically when you look at you work backwards. I think it's like the writer is sort of like, All right, well, we want to get one guy in here to do this. How can we work backwards to find an organic way of making a payoff? Right. That it's included with the plot, but it's also meaningful and I love it. I think it's such a great way to do it. And This is an example of that that's perfect because the weight of Dennis Haysbert character in his death is like, Oh fuck, man, if you just didn't say. Yes, right. So it rooting for you, right? Exactly. So the movie's 2 hours and 10 minutes. It's tighter. It's leaner. But we're if the movie's 2 hours and 10 minutes, we are meeting Haysbert for the first time day of the robbery. Yeah. And Neal's looking at him and going, like, do you recognize that guy? And you're like, and as an audience, you're like, Oh, that kind of came together kind of conveniently. But the way from minute 40 that he is establishing, this guy is in this diner, like here he is, this is his setup. And it makes sense that like you meet at a diner before a big score like that. That makes sense. Yeah, it makes sense. Like It they are having coffee there and he just happens to be work there because he's put in that work to set it up. And that's why the movie needs to be 250, at least to me. That's why I've never had a problem with length ever. And one thing I want to bring up to the to the women of this movie, please, is that like, if you look at it, it does meet, I think, some of the stereotypes of like all of these women characters that are in this movie are basically they're serving their male counterparts. And that is very true. And I feel like today, like we would have a little bit more going on there. But what I do want to bring out about all of these women is that all of them represent a different type of reality to this. Like you've got the wife of Pacino who is so strong. Oh, yeah. And so like she knows what she wants and she's fighting for it, right? You get Val Kilmer, Ashley Judd, Val Kilmer's wife. Who's totally on board with the lifestyle. Like you need to take down more scores, stop the gambling, you know, watch your son. So she's, like, totally accepting of the fact that this is what my husband does for a living. We may not be getting as much as one would like from these female stories, from these characters, but they are so represented so well by the performances that like, that's what we mean. And then we get Amy Brenneman we talked about earlier just. Lonely. Yeah. Like there's a reason why all of these women are with these guys and the struggle that they're going through themselves in dealing with it. I that end scene with Ashley Judd. When she's. With the cop, the hand movement the. Hand movement because she is clearly set herself she knows for the sake of her kid, yep, she needs to get away from this. But she loves this guy. Their love is so toxic in a way that's so kind of like, beautiful. And you're rooting for Kilmer. You want him to get away? Yeah. When you see. When you see that this smile on his face. When he sees her. When he sees her because his whole entire motivation is her. That's it. That's it. And and. And the. Kids and. The sets and the kid. Yeah. And when she waves it away and he gets it. That's such a fucking mann thing to do. A simple that is fucking perfect. And we all know exactly what it means. Yes. Like, yes. Have they come up with that ahead of time. She just know like. Like criminal gangster code shit. If I just do that, he'll know it's off. And then that whole disappointment and. It's like, oh, it's like I got two things. I got. To go. And he just like, looks to like whatever's going on around him makes up a, like, a realistic thing. And I love it. He gets away. Yeah, he gets away. Some people have called out. It's like B.S.. I don't really know if it's based on 1995, honestly. Yeah. Like fake IDs changed. I mean, maybe. But, you know, he got I hope that character shows up in the book like sequel part of the book. He has to. Yeah, yeah, that's true. Oh, my God. Like, he got away. He's one of the only ones. Like, when you look at who survived this, it's him. It's him. Yeah. Where you go. Where did he go? I love that idea. Oh, so do I. Speaking of okay, so speaking of the crew, that was the next batch of actors I'd list. We got Val Kilmer, Tom Sizemore, Danny Trejo Jon Voight, Tom Noonan and Dennis Haysbert. Oh, I know God, I we talked about the time Tom Sizemore tilt that nothing better than that Jon Voight skipped a little few seconds. Jon Voight here. Jon Voight was in like good shape when they made this movie. That's a good looking dude who didn't have like those, you know, like liver spots on his forehead or that hair or anything he was I mean, his career peak Anaconda was the following year. You know, it doesn't that's the best movies ever been in the best performance. And you want to go to snag go do it. You don't know what they are. Yeah, but they made. Him up to look like famed criminal robber bunker who wrote perhaps in terms of Michael Mann, the definitive text, no, be so fierce about Folsom Prison. Prison life. Most of us most movie fans know Eddie Bunker. He was a technical advisor for Heat, but he also played Mr. Blue in Reservoir Dogs. And, you know, there's been movies like Based on his Life Straight Time, starring Dustin Hoffman. So they made him up to look like that. And it's just it's a great character part because Jon Voight, like I mentioned, career peak, anaconda like starring role. And this is like he's the I don't know like eighth, ninth, 10th lead. And everything he does is perfect. I love the way it looks. And he's like, What happened out there? You're like, Don't ask. They have such a good relationship in every career. Needs that fence. Yeah. They need the person who has, like, the sergeant inside the LAPD giving information. That's the guy who knows how to flip everything, how to flip whatever it is. The diamonds, cash, the bearer bonds. He knows how to flip it. And he's the guy that provides you you're out your escape and he plays that. I mean, perfect. He's he's if you really think about it, he's got the plot. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's one of those ones where, like, when everything needs to be cleared, you need whatever you need, right? You don't ever question that that character is just what can make that happen. Yeah. And you don't ever really think about it more than that, but that's exactly what it is. But do you know who was originally supposed. To play that? You know, I've heard a lot of casting what ifs, just listening. That was Rewatchable Episode two. Well, apparently from the interview that I heard from Jon Voight is that Nick Nolte was actually playing that like he was cast, but he was not in good shape. Okay. Terms of, you know, his stuff. His stuff, it's yeah. So they brought in Jon Voight and and Jon Voight was like, why do you like why you picked me already have this? And he goes, well, I get to work with you now. Right, right. But nobody would have had to play that really restrained. And like he wouldn't it wouldn't allow it. He couldn't have been tough guy I, I love multi I love almost every multi role, but I don't I like Voight in it a lot. I'm a lot. I wonder how much. They're huge too. Like he's such an intimidating figure. Like, they would have had to really, like, age him and not make him to me. He would have looked Nolte. He could have looked like more of a guy who should be on like his actual crew. Yeah. Fencing the. Time. Yeah. The weathered look. I mean, yeah. Nolte like 95 with the weathered look of Voight, who again was like at his career peak the next year in Anaconda. But I'm just saying, like, I really love what they did with him and what he did with it. I do, too. I wonder how many times in both of their careers I feel like those two are constantly like being matched well mean. They started around the same time, you know, they're both hitting in like sixties or late sixties. Early seventies. Yeah. How many roles in 41 that went to Jon Voight, right. Could I. Yeah. I mean every actor's got that one guy. That's right, guys. It's always him. Market, correct. That's what Bill Simmons says that when an actor can like market correct and other and kind of take do that like take their roles and stuff. Yeah it can happen. There's a funny story where where Bruce Dern was for Nebraska. Yeah. And he was talking about how like why he accepted this role and. He's like, well, and the other reason I took is because I'll be goddamned if I'm Jimmy Caan role is going to come his way and take it from me. That's fucking great, Jimmy. God, I love him. What a what a nut. Tom Noonan. Yeah, and memorable. Terrifying as for instance, Tyler Hyde in Manhunter. Michael Mann's Manhunter. A great performance and then, you know, like ten years, nine years later, he just shows up in one scene. Yeah shaved massive beard wheelchair for no reason. You know, it just I just catch it. It just flies in there and I just catch it all. And I love when he makes the sale, when De Niro contemplates and he's like, You're on. And the first thing he says is, congratulations. You know, he's like, I sold you this thing. Like, Congratulations. I'm glad you have this. I just I love it's all that, like, why? Why the wheelchair? Why the shaved. Head? Why the massive beard? Why, why? Why? I don't know. Even though I'm questioning it, I'm not questioning from a place of, like, judgment. I'm like, I don't know why you did that, but I totally believe all of like, okay, wheelchair, cool. Check. I love Tom Noonan. I love Tom Noonan. He's so good. He's great. But there's also one other person I don't know if you're going to mention him. Who? William Fichtner. I am mentioning him. He's I'm doing it kind of in a I was doing it kind of in grouping them. So I did the crew and then I was going to do the cops, I was going to do Mykelti Williamson, Wes Studi, Tad Devine, who are great, you know, as the cops, apparently. Ted Devine either offered the part of Wing Girl, but he didn't want to take it because he played Buffalo Bill in Sounds of the Lambs and didn't want to be like, you know, or. There wouldn't be a great big version. You know she didn't want to do that and followed up. And I mean, he has such a great voice. You know, I meet him on. Figueroa and well, we're not the blocker, mom. I love him. I love to. Sit around forever. Okay. And then I had. Yeah, the villains we have Kevin Gage season never known is Jesse James as Wayne Groh we have Hank Azaria and then. We at the end of this one. Henry Rollins. Yeah. Oh, he's great. Tone, look. Up tone looks jacket by the way, steals focus from that. So yeah. Does Tone look just the whole energy you got to imagine like he was a you know, he's in hip hop at the time making music and. Like you get to be in a scene with like one of the best actors ever. And he doesn't bring any fear into it. It's just such, so much confidence. But then, yeah, of course, the great Van Zandt, William Fichtner, like, you know, talking to an empty telephone. Oh, my God, it's dead man on the other end of this line. I mean, I love talking about, like, character arcs just starting with. So it's, you know, we're on the streets. You can see all my stuff and get away with it. I'm going to kill him, too. Then like a few of his scenes later, he's like unshaven, the, you know, Filipino, that's all I've been living here day and night. How well do you know him? Bounds major scores together. Oh, God. I love I really love the way he plays the phone call when De Niro when the you know after the abandoned movie theater drive and after the abandoned drive and scene and they go, you know, De Niro on his crew, go to the restaurant and they call for dinner. And Fiona's just like I sent someone. I haven't heard anything back, like what happened? And he's like, Yeah, I fucking get it. And that's, you know, I'm talking to a telephone just the way Fichtner decides to double down on like, Oh, no. Is everything all. Right? Yeah. Even the way he, like, kind of breathlessly, like, airs it out. Oh, God, yeah. Great performance. I mean, we're huge Fichtner fans. Like, I love him. Armageddon, like, literally can make a grown man cry in Armageddon. Yeah. Can I, you know, shake the hand of the. What is it? The bravest man I've ever known. Shit. No, but he's like, Shake the hand of the daughter of the bravest man I've ever known. And you're like, God damn, man. Where the hell did that come from? The Michael Bay movie. Like you're crushing. It made me. Cry here at the end. Good Armageddon makes me cry. Ever love. Armageddon. Oh, my. God, I love it. Ben Affleck and Bruce Willis just gave it to me when he's giving that whole speech at the end of it to Liv Tyler. Right, right? We win. Gracie. Hank Azaria had no idea that Pacino was going to do that great ass thing. And he you hear the actor Hank Azaria go, Jesus. And that was him saying that wasn't his character. Yeah. And, you know, everyone's like, Oh, my God, he's great. Just in his few scenes, definitely plays like a Las Vegas scumbag, so. Well, oh yeah. Azaria is great character work because he's so good at voices. Yeah. That he'll throw a believable voice on it and just, like, embody this like, oh, I never should have gotten caught with this broad. Yeah, even. And I love Mykelti Williamson. Like you better get in there and sit down. Yeah, yeah. Right. His face. But act anyone actors. Who's Ralph at the end. Ralph is Zander Burkley, who we all love from any number of films. Terminator two, you know? Yeah. In the house. Come on, clean up. Your role? Yeah, yeah. He's just great. And he plays that so well. Just completely terrified of like, what the hell is this maniac cop doing? I don't even know. He definitely doesn't know that she's married and he's like, What the fuck? And it's this cop and he's acting crazy. Yeah, plays it so well. Just so he's like, Sit down, Ralph. Well, you know, you can put my wife, but I'm taking my teeth. Yeah. I did demean myself with Ralph just to get closer. Yeah, I know. The poor fucking guy is just like, what the hell? You know? He's like, I just said sex. But now I'm worried that he's going to beat my ass. But then you just be like, Can I leave? Yeah, can I just get Ralph's? Oh. My God, it's. So. Fucking lunatic cup. Final thoughts, heat, legacy. What do we have? I think this is, you know, set it up top. I think this is one of the I don't know if a better like crime thriller epic American based movie like it's ever been made if not this is this will always be for the rest of our lifetimes. This will be a top five movie for what it is like top five, however you want to label it. Bank robbery movie, heist movie, you know, crime thriller, however you want label it, it's just it's that good. It deserves all the clout, all the recognition it has gotten. And I am so thrilled just that it has it's really gotten more popular with age like more people are discovering it. This is a movie that like even younger generations who are not the biggest movie watchers necessarily when they are catching this I their everyone dislikes it. It's a cool fucking movie that has stood the test of time. It doesn't feel dated despite that. No, no, no. I also, you know, we're so, so many advances in technology, all that doesn't feel dated. It just it works. It still works. And I love it. And I'm so glad we were able to do this long as deep dove on it. And there's one thing that I've wanted to say that I completely forgot, but, you know, we have not talked about it. I mean, we have by way of the overall magnificence of the movie. But the writing. Yeah yeah, the. Fucking writing of this movie is astounding. Like what happens when you spend, like 17 years writing something, making shit based on the content, and then making it again. That's what happens. Yeah. I mean, not just the progression of the plot. There are just certain lines that are said by characters that are just said so well and at the exact right time that the characters should say it, that you're like. There were a few times where I almost wanted to pause and just take in. I go, What a line. Yeah. And I mean, and I'm not necessarily one of those people that just view good writing is whenever there's a movie that just got a bunch of really good dialog. Yeah, yeah. But there are, I think it's all just met with the, the, the stakes. Yeah. Like when the opportunity presents itself for there to be a line this good put it in and say it like there's so many good lines in here. Well and I'm going to point out one that's going to seem a little unusual. But if you are if you are a fan of Thief, his first movie with James Caan, you may notice that James Caan character rarely talks with contraction. So he doesn't say, I can't. I'm not going to do that. I can't do that. It's I am not going to do that. I cannot do that. So that's a very that's something that is very popular in prisons because you don't want anyone to misunderstand you and like spelling out every like that. To be absolutely clear, that's a very big thing in prison. And that's why Wayne GROSS like that is why I am here. You know, he's like, I'm a man, I'm a cowboy looking for work. That is why, I'm here. He could be like, That's why I'm here, you know? But he doesn't. And that's all. Like, it may seem like kind of this throwaway line, but even, man, it's putting so much into that is why I am. There's so much research for someone, so many interviews he's done. Yeah. And when you get an actor like Jesse James, Jesse James makes that writing. Fly Christ was a great movie assassination. Is it? Oh, we did it. We've arrived. What are you watching? I mean, we could heat some movie. It's another one you could talk about forever. I watched this movie once we decided on it. I watched it three times in like a, week and a half just for this. Never bored. Once again, we are we encourage commentaries a lot on this podcast. If you want to venture into it, I promise. Promise you are going to learn so much more than you thought possible. If you listen to Michael Mann talk about this and it never his commentaries never get stale. He's a top five for me. It's like Spike Lee, David Fincher, Stephen Soderbergh and a few Michael Mann. But there are some that just deliver the information in a way that isn't stale, isn't boring. So I highly recommend that Michael Mann is a guy who likes to tinker with his films, not all of them, but he tinkers with some along the way. And there's been a few versions of this, like the definitive director's cut Blu ray that came out a few years ago. He mostly made enhancements to like, sound, but the commentary should be available on any DVD or Blu ray release. This a lot of people in this movie just throw it on one day. Tom saying. Yep, this movie. I mean I mean, obviously, if you listen to this and you haven't seen it, we've spoiled it. But if you go back and watch it and even is for everyone who has seen it, like this movie is 3 hours, but once you start it, it does not let you go. No, it cooks it cooks. It it you are invested the whole entire time. And I think that that's such a testament to a good movie is when it starts and you don't ever once feel like this has gone on too long. Right. What are we doing here? There's never a stale moment. We've discussed a lot of movies on this podcast and like done some deep Dove episodes on challenging movies, like movies that aren't necessarily that accessible. You know, you have to they can be like hard sells for people making. Nikki okay. Malcolm and Marie can be a hard sell for people. He is not a hard sell. No, it's like just go put this on. Yeah, I have two people in my life who are dear, dear friends. And this is their favorite movie of all time. Like, period. I'm like, I get it. I get it. Now, there are certain movies that are just, like, undeniable, like, like if you don't like this movie, something is wrong with you. Yeah, I don't. I would go that far, but I think there's something. In this movie for damn near everyone take away. That's all. Yes. So we're going to move on to. What are you watching? It's dealer's choice. You're going to go first. Of course. I always go for you. Don't always go for always go. I make a very concerted effort to try to split it up as best I can. All right. I'm going to go first. I'm going to fucking go first because you know what? You're going to go first because I told you I'm. A man and I make my own calls and I'm going. I'm double the worst rebel you ever met, that tender deleted scene? Actually, I'm double the. Worst relative ever. That's good. That's from a deleted scene. When he's berating Jeremy Piven, he's like their scene goes on long and cheap. So he says something like, You're not going to tell anybody, tell anybody about this. I'm double the worst trouble you ever met. And that's actually in the trailer, though. So it's one of those like, oh, that's one line from the trailer that they cut out of the final movie. But yeah, I was trying to give you a heat line there. You did? It's our man. This thing won't. Do is let you down. All right, so, I mean, I'm doubling down here. I'm going with a michael Mann movie. So am I. Okay, perfect. I wonder if are going to go with the same one. I don't know. And one of us has seen all of them. The other hasn't heard. Jesus Christ. Here we go. Oh, I know which one you're going to pick. Okay, no, I am going to recommend this, and so am I. So I got it written right here. Right here. Insider Nischelle, this only happened twice and twice. Thelma and Louise, Thelma Louise. Kristen McDonald But that's like episode seven. We both picked them in the weeds. That's crazy. Yeah, only happened twice. You have the insider, you have the outsider. Tell me why you're doing it. So The Insider was one of those movies that, again, like it was I said it earlier in the pod, like I've seen Michael Mann movies at a very young age, but I remember watching The Insider and I remember just even thinking I was enjoying it. I guess I was hooked. I was invested, right? But there was a part of me that was like, Man, when I'm older, I think this movie is going to be way better. Yeah, yeah. Like there was just something about the slow burn. There was something about the specificity of everything. But what I really gathered was that the stakes were really high for these characters, right? And life. On the line, jobs. Marriages and. All just kind of wrapped around the idea of cigarets. Like, that's just kind of basically like, you know it. Yeah, but I really, really felt like there was something going on there that I wasn't ready for. But I deeply appreciate it. So I'm kind of recommending this movie is again for me to go back and rewatch. But yeah, they're like, there's something about them. There's something that's living in that movie. Well, it's. A very I do think it's his most mature his, most like deadly serious, but it's still being made by the guy who knows how to make heat. So it's very technically savvy. It's some of the shots he's doing in it are like nuts. The close ups, again, he's operating his own camera. A little bit trivia for that. You know, the scene when he, like, opens his mailbox and he sees the bullets sitting there that like takes place like in the suburbs. Michael Mann did not like the lighting through the mailbox, so they, like, went to the fucking beach just to get the ocean reflecting the light. And there's like a behind the scenes picture of them just shooting the mailbox, and that's it. It's crazy. He's I mean, he's a lunatic. Like, he's he's got to get perfect lighting that no one but him is ever going to notice. But, you know, it's a truly great movie about a true story, basically about a whistleblower of the tobacco industry. Jeff Jeffrey Wigand, played by Russell Crowe but played amazingly by Russell Crowe. It's my favorite Crowe performance. It always has been. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Wow. I mean, honestly, quite easily like it's I absolutely love him gained the weight American audiences did not have a relationship with him yet you Lakoff and all but he's sharing that with Guy Pearce and Kevin Spacey to me like, yeah, I love him. I love him. That's my favorite one. Yeah. I mean, I cannot argue with that. But like the way he owns Insider and just going toe to toe with Pacino, who's playing 60 Minutes producer producer Lowell Bergman. Christopher Plummer's great is Mike Wallace. Gina Gershon is great in this movie, has like a CBS executive I love it and then Pacino he has, you know, those few flip outs like The Wall Street. Journal, not exactly a bastion of anti-capitalist sentiment. I'm crazy. I'm so glad we both picked this one. This is a movie he made after he released in 1999, probably the most nominated film Oscar wise for like a michael Mann movie. Didn't win any. Some would argue that Russell Crowe should have won the actor against Kevin Spacey. You know, who knows? I also kind of love the fact that like three lifelong, dedicated smokers, like the Chino Crowe and Michael Mann, like make this anti smoking movie. I don't know, it's just hilarious. But irony. Yeah. I cannot recommend Insider highly enough. Obviously cannot recommend heat widely enough. So. So that's it. Oh, my God. That was so much fun. As always, everyone. Thank you. Find it? I haven't messed up in a long time now at the end, just available. Oh, God. Obviously, we recommend The Insider very highly. We recommend heat pull, endorsement So as always, thank you for listening and happy watching. It's about the round the corner. Hey everyone, thanks again for listening. You can watch my films and read my movie blog at Alex Withrow dot com. Nicholas Dose Dotcom is where you can find all of Nick's film work. Send us mailbag questions at what are you watching podcast at gmail.com or find us on Twitter at W AIW Underscore Podcast. In addition to Heat, there were a ton of all timer movies released in 1995, and next time we're going to talk about our favorite films that came out in that incredible year. Stay tuned.